List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[wakojako]

I think the problem is that 'we' can't do that. We are all about defending.

My one gripe with Jlo from day one has been how conservative he is at the selection table. I think he will struggle to get the most out of our talented players. The good news is that our list is stacked with talent and is good enough to get us a top 4 spot. We just need Jlo or someone else to get creative with our gameplan and list.

 

[Taylor]

If you've spent months, arguably years working on playing a certain way then play two games in which you fail to play the way you've been practicing it's not the time to try something new without practice because the thing you did practice but didn't execute didn't work because you failed to execute it. You need to see the game plan fail when everything is working.

 

[Docker82]

I still don't quite understand the list management decisions around the midfield group last off season, and they aren't any clearer with hindsight (so far).

We committed to Mundy retiring, lowballed Acres, presumably because we needed options for Erasmus and Johnson. JOM became available (relatively) late in the process, we appear to have added him as a direct swap for Mundy, and now it seems Erasmus and Johnson aren't ready. Maybe NOD was penciled in for inside time like you suggest? I'm still unsure what our play might have been if JOM chose GWS.

I wasn't saying NOD was pencilled for inside mid time. I just think him spending time doing a bit of both would work really well. It's the position he played before we drafted him.

 

[apuchar]

If you've spent months, arguably years working on playing a certain way then play two games in which you fail to play the way you've been practicing it's not the time to try something new without practice because the thing you did practice but didn't execute didn't work because you failed to execute it. You need to see the game plan fail when everything is working.

Yes. I don't think our gameplan and preparation factored in us getting smashed out of the middle/stoppages nearly every week, as opposed to only sometimes.

 

[Taylor]

Yes. I don't think our gameplan and preparation factored in us getting smashed out of the middle/stoppages nearly every week, as opposed to only sometimes.

I don't think it did, I think players not playing well has far more impact on those types of contests than the game plan does. I'm not happy with how wide the stoppage structure is but it's not exactly the plan for players to drop marks is it? The game plan should create opportunity to score and minimise the hurt factor the other way. We are keeping teams from scoring, we are plus 19 inside fifties across the two games so far and most of those are coming from chains from inside defensive fifty giving the opposition time to roll back and congest the forward fifty.

If we can square the ledger on clearances, particularly centre clearances, we will win the games.

 

[freo_leo29]

Definitely should have kept Acres.

Or we could just play jom in that wing role like I thought we bought him for

 

[Taylor]

Or we could just play jom in that wing role like I thought we bought him for

Why would you think O'Meara was going to play wing?

I'm not sure he is physically capable of running that far.

 

[freo_leo29]

Why would you think O'Meara was going to play wing?

I'm not sure he is physically capable of running that far.

Has played wing at the Hawks, assumed he would have a similar role here

Not full time but a good chunk of games

 

[Swiggy]

Couple of realistic trade targets at end of season from WA

sharp - might be a blessing GC didn’t trade, could almost walk to freo
ash Johnson- not getting a game at Collingwood X factor would fit freo forward line nicely
trey ruscoe - backman who plays tall and small. Also best mates with jackson
shannon Neale - forward who can ruck doesn’t get a look in at Geelong handy back up

 

[Cayman Docker]

I really hope this doesn’t become the most exciting thread of the year, with 2 rounds done… it’s kinda shaping up that way. A win this week sure would help my mental stability!

Really hope we sell the farm for a KPF and couldn’t care who that might cost us.

 

[Dockeroo]

If you've spent months, arguably years working on playing a certain way then play two games in which you fail to play the way you've been practicing it's not the time to try something new without practice because the thing you did practice but didn't execute didn't work because you failed to execute it. You need to see the game plan fail when everything is working.

As far as I can see our gameplan involves intricate chains of difficult to execute handballs out of congestion, before a delivery by foot I50 that is probably considered “high” percentage by the coaches. I reckon the likes of young is told “don’t deliver a low kick to a leading forward i50 unless you are HIGHLY confident it will be successful. Dont take risks.” You have to remember a turnover from an intercepted low pass to a leading forward is far more dangerous than a turnover from a high dumped kick i50 to a pack.
The default position when that kick to a leading forward is closed off is kick it to a contest and hope the forwards take a pack mark.

My problem with this approach is that (a) it is less likely to work under the intense pressure a top class finals side will bring, and (b) I don’t think we have the talent level in the list to successfully implement it.

We have all watched players like Serong, JOM, Brodie Schultz Chapman etc fumbling, hitting handballs behind players or to a recipients knees or toes, over the first 2 weekends.
That’s talent, or more specifically a lack of it. These players are not good enough to implement this gameplan.
Maybe a midfield of prime Fyfe, dusty, Dangerfield and Pendlebury with Gawn rucking to them could implement this style. But no one has that midfield.
Why do we have to have a style with such an incredibly high degree of difficulty to execute, from our centre bounce clearances?
I’m sick of watching us get initial hands on the footy, take an extra step or extra handball (often at someone’s toes) before the opposition swoops in, dispossess us and dumps the ball forward into our defensive 50.

 

[freo_leo29]

Get the first glimpse of jvr this weekend

 

[arsesmart]

As far as I can see our gameplan involves intricate chains of difficult to execute handballs out of congestion, before a delivery by foot I50 that is probably considered “high” percentage by the coaches. I reckon the likes of young is told “don’t deliver a low kick to a leading forward i50 unless you are HIGHLY confident it will be successful. Dont take risks.” You have to remember a turnover from an intercepted low pass to a leading forward is far more dangerous than a turnover from a high dumped kick i50 to a pack.
The default position when that kick to a leading forward is closed off is kick it to a contest and hope the forwards take a pack mark.

My problem with this approach is that (a) it is less likely to work under the intense pressure a top class finals side will bring, and (b) I don’t think we have the talent level in the list to successfully implement it.

We have all watched players like Serong, JOM, Brodie Schultz Chapman etc fumbling, hitting handballs behind players or to a recipients knees or toes, over the first 2 weekends.
That’s talent, or more specifically a lack of it. These players are not good enough to implement this gameplan.
Maybe a midfield of prime Fyfe, dusty, Dangerfield and Pendlebury with Gawn rucking to them could implement this style. But no one has that midfield.
Why do we have to have a style with such an incredibly high degree of difficulty to execute, from our centre bounce clearances?
I’m sick of watching us get initial hands on the footy, take an extra step or extra handball (often at someone’s toes) before the opposition swoops in, dispossess us and dumps the ball forward into our defensive 50.

Yeah although the skill errors are on both the delivery and receiving ends of the ledger.

The quick succession of handballs to clear out of a crowded contest is pretty widespread across teams now. And so many of the errors I've seen (sooo many) from the weekend were unforced.

It's like one of those infectious jitters that hits a batting side in cricket, where wickets are tumbling and each successive batter loses more of their composure and more of their capacity to execute to their ability. Hopefully, some of it is an awareness of what is possible if they click and what they're capable of is creating an overeagerness verging on angst. So when it's not clicking there's a doubling down on stiff hands and slipping more into worrying about outcome rather than process.

I'd say the amount of change over the offseason has added some disruption too, which affects getting more in sync when things aren't going smoothly.

 

[Bigger]

You write, Arsesmart, with conviction and eloquence on this whole process/outcome folderol. And you very nearly convince me. Hearing the Pavliches, Fyfes and Longmuirs of the world, who must go to sleep to the soothing tones of corporate self-help audio books, I am amazed at how deeply soul-crushing pop-psych management lingo and thought has seeped into the world of footy. They're all at it. Stepping through the process.

**** that noise. I don't want that kind of leader. I want freaks who just really, really hate losing and would rather cut off their arm than do so. I want scarily intense weirdoes who don't give a flying **** about completing an MBA at Harvard. They just look at a dude, see what that dude is good at and then get that dude to do it over and over, for him, for them, for each other, for w-i-n-n-i-n-g.

Leigh Matthews used to tell the Brissie boys over and over how it's a simple game. He'd tell them it isn't rocket science so often that a few of them named their group racehorse Rocket Science in his honour.

And it is a simple game. A territorial game that is played over great distances but won within centimetres. By want or dare.

You give a bloke like Josh Treacy too much to think about and he no longer has his best and most compelling asset - instinct.

Longmuir was there in 2006 when Belly led the charge to junk all the frou-frou Connolly had built into their game plan. He has personal experience of how inhibiting too many things to think about can be. Maybe not for him. But I can guarantee Matty "Mean Feet" Taberner struggles with more directions than "up," "back" and "hold".

Put Erasmus in the middle - because all the corporate speakers currently in there are wonderful chaps but they are all too similarly paced and polite - and then just tell everyone to play the kind of footy they love to play. Do what you're good at.

 

[Ge3ks]

 

[arsesmart]

You write, Arsesmart, with conviction and eloquence on this whole process/outcome folderol. And you very nearly convince me. Hearing the Pavliches, Fyfes and Longmuirs of the world, who must go to sleep to the soothing tones of corporate self-help audio books, I am amazed at how deeply soul-crushing pop-psych management lingo and thought has seeped into the world of footy. They're all at it. Stepping through the process.

* that noise. I don't want that kind of leader. I want freaks who just really, really hate losing and would rather cut off their arm than do so. I want scarily intense weirdoes who don't give a flying * about completing an MBA at Harvard. They just look at a dude, see what that dude is good at and then get that dude to do it over and over, for him, for them, for each other, for w-i-n-n-i-n-g.

Leigh Matthews used to tell the Brissie boys over and over how it's a simple game. He'd tell them it isn't rocket science so often that a few of them named their group racehorse Rocket Science in his honour.

And it is a simple game. A territorial game that is played over great distances but won within centimetres. By want or dare.

You give a bloke like Josh Treacy too much to think about and he no longer has his best and most compelling asset - instinct.

Longmuir was there in 2006 when Belly led the charge to junk all the frou-frou Connolly had built into their game plan. He has personal experience of how inhibiting too many things to think about can be. Maybe not for him. But I can guarantee Matty "Mean Feet" Taberner struggles with more directions than "up," "back" and "hold".

Put Erasmus in the middle - because all the corporate speakers currently in there are wonderful chaps but they are all too similarly paced and polite - and then just tell everyone to play the kind of footy they love to play. Do what you're good at.

Hey, a process can be as structured as you like. Or as intuitively and flexibly devised or implemented to meet the situation.

You get overly caught up in focusing on outcomes and your instincts are in the backseat.

 

[SiempreFreo]

His improvement isn't enough or consistent. His marking is still a coin toss and he definitely still fumbles. He's a culprit of handing the ball over in the middle of the ground because he doesn't know how to play contests and ground balls. Not a very smart footballer. There comes a point where he can't rely on having every ball given to him on a golden platter.

In fairness, he was our third top scorer last year on limited supply. He also showed some extremely quick thinking to help Shooter and Sonny get spirit-lifting goals.

 

[Docker82]

Couple of realistic trade targets at end of season from WA

sharp - might be a blessing GC didn’t trade, could almost walk to freo
ash Johnson- not getting a game at Collingwood X factor would fit freo forward line nicely
trey ruscoe - backman who plays tall and small. Also best mates with jackson
shannon Neale - forward who can ruck doesn’t get a look in at Geelong handy back up

Doesn't seem to be many proven players there.

Maybe Johnson to a degree but the off field stuff is a bit worrying.

We've recruited two non-WA players through trade in two years. Wouldn't rule this out tbh, especially from non-Victorian clubs

 

[freo1997]

Couple of realistic trade targets at end of season from WA

sharp - might be a blessing GC didn’t trade, could almost walk to freo
ash Johnson- not getting a game at Collingwood X factor would fit freo forward line nicely
trey ruscoe - backman who plays tall and small. Also best mates with jackson
shannon Neale - forward who can ruck doesn’t get a look in at Geelong handy back up

Reckon Jackson should stop pissing farting around with his mates on the piss and concentrate on footy.

 

[Ge3ks]

Reckon Jackson should stop pissing farting

 

[FreoRicci]

Logue is the only one that grates me.

He'd be handy now and we'd have the flexibility with Cox

Never Underwood why Cox should be CHB with those hands and smartness reading the ball in the air. Can kick 3-4 goals
Logue would’ve useful at half back with Cox forward

 

[Westerberg]

We're still paying the price for how thoroughly clapped out the list was in 2016. Which has been worsened by most of the trades since then failing, if not out right backfiring on us.

Depressing comparing it with the previous rebuild starting in 2007. The players on the list in 2007 and still there 8 years later in 2014 was Pav, McPharlin, Mundy, Sandi, Crowley, Johnno, Duffield and Ibbotson. All elite or close to it, playing some of the most critical roles on the team and great leaders amongst them.

Compared with 2016 to now, only Fyfe, Walters, Pearce, Taberner and Hughes are still on the list. Fyfe can't get on the park, and maybe cooked, Walters is elite, but struggled with form until the second half of last year. Taberner and Hughes are potatoes, hard working but very limited, and Pearce is decent, but no McPharlin.

Desperately need Fyfe back out there and playing at a decent standard.

 

[Docker82]

We're still paying the price for how thoroughly clapped out the list was in 2016. Which has been worsened by most of the trades since then failing, if not out right backfiring on us.

Depressing comparing it with the previous rebuild starting in 2007. The players on the list in 2007 and still there 8 years later in 2014 was Pav, McPharlin, Mundy, Sandi, Crowley, Johnno, Duffield and Ibbotson. All elite or close to it, playing some of the most critical roles on the team and great leaders amongst them.

Compared with 2016 to now, only Fyfe, Walters, Pearce, Taberner and Hughes are still on the list. Fyfe can't get on the park, and maybe cooked, Walters is elite, but struggled with form until the second half of last year. Taberner and Hughes are potatoes, hard working but very limited, and Pearce is decent, but no McPharlin.

Desperately need Fyfe back out there and playing at a decent standard.

Not sure what you were expecting from the majority of our trades but relative to cost paid I'm not sure any is a real disaster bar Hogan and maybe last year's.

You can't trade 3rd and 4th rounders and/or pick upgrades and expect to bring in a superstar. Where we traded a 2nd rounder or more we got a pretty solid player imo. I don't count McCarthy as his trade barely gives him positive trade value imo

I can question the overall strategy but wouldn't call too many of the trades 'failed' when marked individually.

Bringing in low cost players means you can't expect much. That's an overall recruiting issue. How we're discussing whether Walker or Wilson is on the side each yet barely have a decent KPF shows we've invested too much in some areas but not enough in others.

 

[Hamann188]

Get the first glimpse of jvr this weekend

I wanted him, and Amiss. But that was being greedy.

 

[King Huskii]

I wanted him, and Amiss. But that was being greedy.

We could have