List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Don't look past Dylan Moore, UFA

Would be a great get

Will get offered way overs imo

 

[Kaladin Stormblessed]

Why the obsession with Ben Mckay?

Do we have doubts on the short to medium term backline we have in Weitering, Young, Durdin, Kemp, McGovern?

Key defenders can be acquired for cheap, if I'm spending $800k - $1m on a key defender he'd better be Darcy Moore / Jeremy McGovern at his peak. Don't think Ben Mckay is anywhere near either.

Happy to engage in merits of losing TDK to improve the list but surely there are more worthwhile pursuits for that then Ben Mckay? Not dismissing him as a player but he won't be a difference make for us.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I would think a pick we'd be expecting to be around the 14-18 mark would be bang on Ryan's value.

Reckon West coast would drive him to the airport for that. Averages about 12 touches a game, 2 tackles a game and about 1.4 goals a game. As stated would be 27 by the time he got here.

Be disappointed if Motlop isn't doing better than that by the end of this year, Durdin as well.

You'd be paying a fair bit for the occasional speccy.

 

[macky99]

I believe they have softened that stance, but far from desperate to play at the same club.

If North have another bad year he’d have to be considering his options.

He’s arguably their most important player.

Having said all that, I think he stays.



Not suggesting Pitto is elite, he doesn’t have to be.

Just has to play his role.

Pittonet, Young, Mirkov, Lemmey + a cheap mature backup is ample.



A lot can change in a year, but as things stand I’d be very comfortable doing it.


I’m suggesting Young can and should take on a greater role from 2024.

How is that underselling him?


Comfortable losing him =/= desperate to push him out.

I think we can benefit from moving him on, but very happy to keep him on also.


TDK has huge scope. I’m just not entirely convinced he’ll get there.

If there’s a big money offer on the table I think we can better use our money elsewhere.


Yes, Young

Had a good year down back but I’m not convinced it’s necessarily his best position going forward.



I’d be very keen on Himmelberg.

But I think Ben is the better fit. Ideal partner for Weitering down back.

Harry definitely more likely though.

Young was tried at the Bulldogs and was found not up to standard as a ruckman, he had a best season at afl level in defence,why move him to another role when clearly it makes no sense, he looks a long term key defender.

If TDK elects to leave which l highly doubt to be case, what would be attraction to go to North, again l don't see that happening, much more likely to be Geelong, they have consistently shown the ability to attract players and the lifestyle is a attractive point of difference.

 

[Arr0w]

Will get offered way overs imo

Sure he will, but rather than going through a rebuild, he may still get a decent wage and play in finals

And guys like Ben McKay won't come any cheaper, in fact we would have to trade for him, Moore would be a free hit

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

I don't think even the staunchest of Carlton supporters could argue that we'd expect two first rounders for an out of contract TDK. Two first round picks is usually superstar/young star territory.

We've put a lot of time and effort into Tom knowing it would take years for him to mature, only to lose him as he is coming into his prime.
I think compensation will be in the ballpark of what Melbourne received for Jackson.

 

[Coona Blues]

Why the obsession with Ben Mckay?

Do we have doubts on the short to medium term backline we have in Weitering, Young, Durdin, Kemp, McGovern?

Key defenders can be acquired for cheap, if I'm spending $800k - $1m on a key defender he'd better be Darcy Moore / Jeremy McGovern at his peak. Don't think Ben Mckay is anywhere near either.

Happy to engage in merits of losing TDK to improve the list but surely there are more worthwhile pursuits for that then Ben Mckay? Not dismissing him as a player but he won't be a difference make for us.

I have plenty of faith in the key pairing of Weiters and Young. The latter has not received nearly enough credit for the massive steps he took in 2022. We also have some great 3rd tall options a couple of whom can be genuine quality undersized keys with the right group around them.

Your assessment if Ben McKay is off. He is in the conversation with Moore and McGovern. In fact I would say that I would happily pay as much or more for him than the other two.

Should TDK choose to leave, it would not be a ridiculous play, providing Lewis is happy to play elsewhere. Young played percentages last season and worked as a stopper. He has the potential to up the ante as an interceptor. Arguably Weitering could be more potent deployed as an interceptor. McKay is the complete KPD, better than competent in all facets.

 

[Jeremias]

Young was tried at the Bulldogs and was found not up to standard as a ruckman, he had a best season at afl level in defence,why move him to another role when clearly it makes no sense, he looks a long term key defender.

Lewis Young played 20-odd games at the Dogs. Nearly half of them as a teenager.

I don’t believe that’s anywhere near enough time to properly assess a young key position player.

Had his best season for sure. How much was due to continuity?

Why are we afraid to make moves if the side benefits from them?

If TDK elects to leave which l highly doubt to be case, what would be attraction to go to North, again l don't see that happening, much more likely to be Geelong, they have consistently shown the ability to attract players and the lifestyle is a attractive point of difference.

I didn’t say anything about him going to North.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Sure he will, but rather than going through a rebuild, he may still get a decent wage and play in finals

And guys like Ben McKay won't come any cheaper, in fact we would have to trade for him, Moore would be a free hit

I think the problem with Moore would be that he wouldn’t have made any money from football yet so even if he was willing to take less I wonder how much less. For me McKay just doesn’t add up. He will cost a heap in either $ or a trade.

 

[Kaladin Stormblessed]

I have plenty of faith in the key pairing of Weiters and Young. The latter has not received nearly enough credit for the massive steps he took in 2022. We also have some great 3rd tall options a couple of whom can be genuine quality undersized keys with the right group around them.

Your assessment if Ben McKay is off. He is in the conversation with Moore and McGovern. In fact I would say that I would happily pay as much or more for him than the other two.

Should TDK choose to leave, it would not be a ridiculous play, providing Lewis is happy to play elsewhere. Young played percentages last season and worked as a stopper. He has the potential to up the ante as an interceptor. Arguably Weitering could be more potent deployed as an interceptor. McKay is the complete KPD, better than competent in all facets.

Nah come on. That is some serious North-level overrating of Mckay.

Had a terrific back end of the year no doubt but is 25 years old and played less than 60 games. Nowhere near Moore or a peak McGovern. Disagree there.

I don't doubt someone would pay $800k+ for Mckay (most likely North) but I wouldn't for us, that too at the expense of losing TDK and having asked Cripps and Curnow and Harry to take unders. I'd pay more for Kozzie Pickett than I would Mckay.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Just a small snippet of Ben in form last year

He was an absolute force at stages last year even though he had a few interruptions and was playing in an absolute rabble of a club. Would bet my bottom dollar he's at least in the AA squad next year if he continues to improve and finds some consistency with his body.

With that said the biggest issue in terms of a trade is that his foot skills aren't amazing and he's an absolute man mountain. That makes it difficult to form any kind of pairing with Young and Weiters as its hard to cover 2 KPD with poor kicking and its hard to have 3 KPD who would all struggle to play on a smaller opponent.

If a situation unfolded where Ben did want to come, I'd think Weiters could trim off a few KGs and play higher up the field in Gov's role as the 3rd tall intercepting rebounder to a very high level, but I'd still suspect we'd struggle on certain forward lines if we were running 3 KPD's.

 

[gadj1976]

Why the obsession with Ben Mckay?

Do we have doubts on the short to medium term backline we have in Weitering, Young, Durdin, Kemp, McGovern?

Key defenders can be acquired for cheap, if I'm spending $800k - $1m on a key defender he'd better be Darcy Moore / Jeremy McGovern at his peak. Don't think Ben Mckay is anywhere near either.

Happy to engage in merits of losing TDK to improve the list but surely there are more worthwhile pursuits for that then Ben Mckay? Not dismissing him as a player but he won't be a difference make for us.

Or the other De Koning?

 

[macky99]

Lewis Young played 20-odd games at the Dogs. Nearly half of them as a teenager.

I don’t believe that’s anywhere near enough time to properly assess a young key position player.

Had his best season for sure. How much was due to continuity?

Why are we afraid to make moves if the side benefits from them?



I didn’t say anything about him going to North.

No problem if there is a benefit to the side, but we have sufficent tall forwards and we have drafted Lemmey so l don't see this as a option for Young.
In terms of ruck, yes maybe he can pinch hit in the ruck on a needs basis, but clearly his improved form aligned to being placed in a role that best suited him and also the teams needs with Jones leaving.

Based on his performance last year and expected growth this season, l don't see Mckay would be on our radar in terms of what we would have to give up, but personally believe any further assessments on TDK should be reserved till mid-season to evaluate his value going forward, without doubt he has more upside than our other ruckman on our list right now.
He was asked to carry our ruck division for a large portion of last year & performed very well until the last 4-6 weeks of the season when he become tired with this workload and l believe this is being overlooked by some on here in his analysis

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I would think a pick we'd be expecting to be around the 14-18 mark would be bang on Ryan's value.

It's an icing on the cake thing with a guy like Ryan.

And it's a no from me. If Martin is sidelined, well I'd reckon you could get Ryan for a late 3rd rounder.

Great highlights reel, but meh.... and here's hoping Martin can play most games in '23.

Here are Ryan's numbers....



And here, compared to Jack Martin.

Liam Ryan and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Liam Ryan and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[gbatman]

The forward/Ruck role is a huge hole in our team. We are better with DeKoning in our team as forward ruck doing very little purely because it lets Silvagni off the chain as that quality roaming half forward who has stints out of the square. If we had that and a forward/ruck who kicked goals we would go up a level.

Will that be DeKoning? He hasn't had a breakout game as a forward yet. His marking hasn't been quite strong enough and his kicking at times has let him down but the potential is there.

Recruitment of Lemmy was a no brainer, the idea is that he will put his hand up for that position.

But could a trade for TDK work?

It's been mentioned that Young could go to that forward/ruck role with DeKoning going out and Ben McKay coming in. McKay can play, we know that, if Young played the forward/ruck role well, better than TDK then this makes us better. Put it this way. McKay is a better CHB than Young and if Young is a better forward/Ruck than DeKoning we go up a level.

How do we get it done? McKay is a free agent, North may match it and force his pay up to extreme levels. That means we might be better off doing it via a trade. North get picks, good picks and we get the player on fair salary, not the inflated salary we would definitely get him via free agency. You're probably looking at two first round picks at least for a prime aged high quality CHB like that. So I think free agency would be avoided.

This would probably leave our genuine ruck depth a little thin though. We would need to pick up a mature ruckman as well.

TBH I don't think we lose DeKoning. This is all based around Kane Cornes speculation. DeKoning will either have a breakout year and will be signed up to a really long contract or his form will remain the same and clubs will cool on him.

One thing is for sure, the forward/ruck position is one we are going to be keeping a close eye on. At this point in time it's the position that most needs addressing. If we get to the end of next season and it's still a hole in the side we will look to do something about it.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

It's an icing on the cake thing with a guy like Ryan.

And it's a no from me. If Martin is sidelined, well I'd reckon you could get Ryan for a late 3rd rounder.

Great highlights reel, but meh.... and here's hoping Martin can play most games in '23.

Here are Ryan's numbers....

View attachment 1599077

And here, compared to Jack Martin.

Liam Ryan and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Liam Ryan and Jack Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

If you look at the stat sheets Gary Rohan and Jamie Elliot arent dissimilar, but anyone watching their games every week can see the value they bring to a team as a genuine 3rd option taking a quality defender and being extremely difficult to defend 1 on 1.

Rioli and Ryan were absolutely instrumental in the Eagles 2018 flag yet statistically really weren't all that much chop. Ryan would be a great addition to any team, especially to one like ours who's looking for some more icing.

 

[katmanblue]

The forward/Ruck role is a huge hole in our team. We are better with DeKoning in our team as forward ruck doing very little purely because it lets Silvagni off the chain as that quality roaming half forward who has stints out of the square. If we had that and a forward/ruck who kicked goals we would go up a level.

The issue with this is that we alrrady have two key forwards. Essentially having TDK and SOS on the ground means we lose a small/med forward.

If you recall last season, we were often cut up by opposition half backs who'd wander out of their d50 with zero pressure on them.

So if the TDK/SOS duo isn't scoring and they're costing us going the other way, is it actually viable?

I think it's got to be one or the other.

 

[gbatman]

The issue with this is that we alrrady have two key forwards. Essentially having TDK and SOS on the ground means we lose a small/med forward.

If you recall last season, we were often cut up by opposition half backs who'd wander out of their d50 with zero pressure on them.

So if the TDK/SOS duo isn't scoring and they're costing us going the other way, is it actually viable?

I think it's got to be one or the other.

It's a fair argument, offensively it's something which worked for us really well. DeKoning playing more a decoy role which is often what the third tall does when there are two really good key targets there as well. Silvagni's record with DeKoning and the two keys in the side is very good, as is our record.

You can say you lose a small forward, that's probably Owies, who Silvagni plays a much similar role as at half forward to. Who's better at it? Owies or Silvagni? Owies gives a bit more tackling and Silvagni more in the air. In the past Silvagni has been very good at ground level play though, tackling, feeding out handballs etc. I think rucking took that away a bit.

We started the season with Silvagni, DeKoning, McKay, Curnow and it worked very well until injuries and DeKoning's form changed that. The thing is we didn't get to see it very often but when we did...

Round 1 - Win over Richmond
Round 2 - Win over WBD
Round 3 - Win over Hawthorn
Round 20 (Silvagni for half the game) - Loss to Adelaide

We won every game that TDK, SOS, McKay and Curnow were in play for the total of that game.

Whether it creates issues or not, this setup was awfully successful and generated wins for us, although it's only a small sample size.

There are ways of dealing with the opposition's attacking defenders. 1. Tactics, you don't allow them to zone off and you do this when the ball is being rushed forward and we had absolutely zero idea about this last season and this was one of the biggest criticisms I had over our coaching. 2. Play heaps of small fast pressure forwards and also do point 1. 3. Make them defend.

I think because of the quality in our midfield and up forward that point 3 may be on the cards for us. Take Geelong this year. They won the premiership with a team that was all about ball winning and hands on the footy and created pressure that way and a forward line that was all about that as well. It defended the forward line by having forwards and ball movement that demanded the defender had to stick tight and defend. Which I think we will have that to a point. What forward can you leave lose and let have a bit more space in our team? None.

I think we could go either way and still be good. Go smaller, play tighter, be all about pressure or go taller, be more about being a scoring threat and make them defend. Same goes for our backline. We could go smaller, be all about run and rebound or go taller and be all about intercepting, pressure in the contest and going fast from the rebound. It all works for us IMO.

The issue you're bringing up is very little about who we had in the team and more about our tactics/coaching. We allowed attacking defenders too much free rope at times. We were cut up by intercept defenders a lot. More about tactics, discipline and lack of voice up forward and more about what our talls were doing with their positioning. I think next season if we tighten up on this and we become more of a scoring threat, make the small defenders defend then we won't have issues here.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Recruiting Lemmey is a sign we are not confident in keeping TDK

 

[Stamos]

The issue with this is that we alrrady have two key forwards. Essentially having TDK and SOS on the ground means we lose a small/med forward.

If you recall last season, we were often cut up by opposition half backs who'd wander out of their d50 with zero pressure on them.

So if the TDK/SOS duo isn't scoring and they're costing us going the other way, is it actually viable?

I think it's got to be one or the other.

We're not losing out on defensive pressure with SOS

 

[Arr0w]

Recruiting Lemmey is a sign we are not confident in keeping TDK

Doubt that's the case, morseso we were too thin through the spine

 

[Revenant1965]

we were too thin through the spin

Too thin through the spin...?

Trigger warning alert...

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Recruiting Lemmey is a sign we are not confident in keeping TDK

Maybe it’s about list balance, position/area we are short in and for the medium and long term development…

 

[thylacine60]

If you look at the stat sheets Gary Rohan and Jamie Elliot arent dissimilar, but anyone watching their games every week can see the value they bring to a team as a genuine 3rd option taking a quality defender and being extremely difficult to defend 1 on 1.

Rioli and Ryan were absolutely instrumental in the Eagles 2018 flag yet statistically really weren't all that much chop. Ryan would be a great addition to any team, especially to one like ours who's looking for some more icing.

was thinking this the other day (**** off, I think sometimes) cyril was mocked for getting it 9 times a game but hoo boy, the results - I'm happy if motts or durds get it only a handful of times if they are managing a couple of goals and other contributions per game...........

 

[BigFrizz36]

Recruiting Lemmey is a sign we are not confident in keeping TDK

So we recruited a key forward who had dropped significantly down the rankings due to a poor 2022 because we thought a ruckman was leaving?

May be a bit oblique but if I thought a ruckman was leaving I would have recruited another young ruckman to do an apprenticeship.