List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[I bleed Blue]

Agree with the opposition supporter in our autopsy thread.

Media pressure etc has stuffed Harry up.

Coleman year he would have snapped that ball from the top of the square.

It's what he's most comfortable with. Let him kick his high % kick for set shots.

Just needs to back in his most comfortable and successful routine. Especially in a final. Needs to feel comfortable and not kicking a certain kick just because that's what people expect.

He's won a coleman FFS. He knows how to kick goals

 

[Stamos]

Agree with the opposition supporter in our autopsy thread.

Media pressure etc has stuffed Harry up.

Coleman year he would have snapped that ball from the top of the square.

It's what he's most comfortable with. Let him kick his high % kick for set shots.

Just needs to back in his most comfortable and successful routine. Especially in a final. Needs to feel comfortable and not kicking a certain kick just because that's what people expect.

He's won a coleman FFS. He knows how to kick goals

His Coleman year he was kicking drop punts.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Agree with the opposition supporter in our autopsy thread.

Media pressure etc has stuffed Harry up.

Coleman year he would have snapped that ball from the top of the square.

It's what he's most comfortable with. Let him kick his high % kick for set shots.

Just needs to back in his most comfortable and successful routine. Especially in a final. Needs to feel comfortable and not kicking a certain kick just because that's what people expect.

He's won a coleman FFS. He knows how to kick goals

In 2021 all he had to do was stay in the forward 50 and kick goals.

This year he is doing a mountain of work getting up and down the ground, finding more footy, taking more pack marks. In adding these facets to his game, and the fatigue that comes with the CHF role, his goal kicking has suffered.

Every great forward has been through the yips, Franklin, Richo, Riewoldt, Fev had it just as bad.

I hope we give him the chance to redeem himself in a prelim, but if not, I'm confident he will tie it all together as he continues to mature over the next few years. Still only 25.

 

[DangerousD]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of posters saying we don’t need to take many kids this upcoming draft/trade period and I think it’s a bit crazy.

When you see a player of Guldens quality in his third season, nearly carrying his side to a come behind win at the G, you realise how big of an advantage it is to find gems mid draft.

Gulden was picked in the 30s and was a gun from day one, he is exactly the type we need and we should be taking as many kids in the pursuit of finding a player similar.

 

[Stamos]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of posters saying we don’t need to take many kids this upcoming draft/trade period and I think it’s a bit crazy.

When you see a player of Guldens quality in his third season, nearly carrying his side to a come behind win at the G, you realise how big of an advantage it is to find gems mid draft.

Gulden was picked in the 30s and was a gun from day one, he is exactly the type we need and we should be taking as many kids in the pursuit of finding a player similar.

Be nice to have an academy

 

[Stamos]

Carlton offer Silvagni a two-year deal; Hawk Wingard gets one-year contract

Jack Silvagni is likely to remain at Carlton after the Blues offered the out of contract forward/utility a two-year deal. Elsewhere, Chad Wingard got a one-year contract extension at Hawthorn.

www.theage.com.au

https://archive.md/TNrHt

 

[Crippa#9]

I don't wanna be that guy, but....


....is it time to do a Jones with Big H?

We want another key defender who can take the big forwards, one who isn't a liability with field kicking, one who isn't too slow to go with the more agile talls. Do we have him at the other end with an incurable case of the yips in front of goal?

It's probably a bad idea, but I reckon you'd have to give it some consideration.

Newman, McKay, Kemp
Saad, Weitering, Gov
Acres, Cripps, Doc
TDK, Walsh, Cerra
Martin, JSOS, Cottrell
Motlop, Curnow, Owies
I/C: Williams, Hewett, Kennedy, Cuningham

Something like that? Gets JSOS in as the second ruck without making the forward line too top-heavy. Still have the option within games to swing Harry forward.

It would be ballsy but it ain’t a ridiculous suggestion. Probably 12months too premature. Let’s have another look in 2024 as the key forward pair with Charlie and pray that his luck turns around (none less his kicking!)

I love H, but the fact is we’re getting nowhere near value for money at present ($850k/yr ?)

We know his capabilities (everyone has seen how good he is) but boy he’s a defenders dream at the moment.

Playing a defeatist style. No agression. No intimidation. Appreciate he’s not Charlie Dixon but would love to see a bit more ‘see-you-next-tuesday’ about him. There’s no bigger, more athletic player in the game!

I’m backing him in.

 

[DangerousD]

Be nice to have an academy

More highlighting that there is always good players throughout every draft and we shouldn’t get to caught up in our current run and think we dont need to add youth.

I also think he’s an amazing player, would love to add a player like that through the draft.

 

[Stamos]

More highlighting that there is always good players throughout every draft and we shouldn’t get to caught up in our current run and think we dont need to add youth.

I also think he’s an amazing player, would love to add a player like that through the draft.

Yeah, probably not the best example to use a kid who has been in a professional club academy since the age of 11 as an example of a draft find.

Also, not sure I've seen anyone say we shouldn't draft more players? And we are bringing in kids, we got 5 last off-season.

 

[Doro]

More highlighting that there is always good players throughout every draft and we shouldn’t get to caught up in our current run and think we dont need to add youth.

I also think he’s an amazing player, would love to add a player like that through the draft.

Geelong bid on him at 32. Very late, good for the Swans.

 

[DangerousD]

Yeah, probably not the best example to use a kid who has been in a professional club academy since the age of 11 as an example of a draft find.

Also, not sure I've seen anyone say we shouldn't draft more players? And we are bringing in kids, we got 5 last off-season.

A player that no other club bid on until pick 32 is a draft find in my book, i remember a lot of the draft watchers had him around 20 ish.

I’ve seen lots of people here say use our first and that’s it, i dont think that’s a good idea, the kids we got last year have been good, keep them coming.

 

[Manhattanite]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of posters saying we don’t need to take many kids this upcoming draft/trade period and I think it’s a bit crazy.

When you see a player of Guldens quality in his third season, nearly carrying his side to a come behind win at the G, you realise how big of an advantage it is to find gems mid draft.

Gulden was picked in the 30s and was a gun from day one, he is exactly the type we need and we should be taking as many kids in the pursuit of finding a player similar.

In addition to finding talent we also have to use draft picks because of salary cap considerations - it’s a cheaper way to fill out a list than having too many years 5-8 players.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Arr0w]

I remember that thread, good call, bad call

Well I would say overreaction call

If you are judging Harry's year on number of goals or those easy misses, sure he has been well down, but before his injury was vital to our setup and playing a more selfless role

If we win this week, think he still can have a major impact in finals

Otherwise, I am backing him in to have a monster year in 2024

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of posters saying we don’t need to take many kids this upcoming draft/trade period and I think it’s a bit crazy.

When you see a player of Guldens quality in his third season, nearly carrying his side to a come behind win at the G, you realise how big of an advantage it is to find gems mid draft.

Gulden was picked in the 30s and was a gun from day one, he is exactly the type we need and we should be taking as many kids in the pursuit of finding a player similar.

I don't get it, either. It's as if people confuse having a 'balanced' list with having a list with optimum talent, hence no need to bother getting the jump on the opposition in the draft as long as we've ticked the minimum required boxes. Having said that, I find it's not always midfielders that are the bargains.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of posters saying we don’t need to take many kids this upcoming draft/trade period and I think it’s a bit crazy.

When you see a player of Guldens quality in his third season, nearly carrying his side to a come behind win at the G, you realise how big of an advantage it is to find gems mid draft.

Gulden was picked in the 30s and was a gun from day one, he is exactly the type we need and we should be taking as many kids in the pursuit of finding a player similar.

Agreed. We will (and should) go to the draft. The recruiters should know the types Voss is looking for / likes - which is why clubs like Sydney and Geelong are so successful / Settled.

There is little chance they find a player who is decent but just doesn't fit the system. I hope we're building that understanding.

Hollands / Binns / Cowan / Cincotta - all play a style Voss loves. Dow not so much. That's where longevity and stability is such an advantage for a club. Long may it continue.

I can't wait to see who we bring in via the draft this year. If Fisher and Dow go we might have a fair bit of draft capital.

 

[oldtimer22]

Love Harry...

However, I'd nearly rather trade him, now...
He's a big expense to our cap and is mentally cooked, can't even kick a goal from 10m out...

We'd get decent compensation and could target a cheaper option...

I agree wholeheartedly. But it’s almost treasonous to say it!

 

[The Bighouse]

A player that no other club bid on until pick 32 is a draft find in my book, i remember a lot of the draft watchers had him around 20 ish.

I’ve seen lots of people here say use our first and that’s it, i dont think that’s a good idea, the kids we got last year have been good, keep them coming.

Again, not the best example when aligned to an academy & prone to drifting out but an absolute steal for SYD.

I’m sure M.Rendall thought he could be the best of the lot from that draft, spot on assessment. He’s got it all & the laser left

Interesting that L.McMachon (CFC reserves & potentially on our radar) was taken the pick prior & McCreery is the best performed later pick at 44, though some others are presenting as capable AFL players (S.Ryan, E.Ford, O.Lord, Brockman, Highmore, Rioli, Wehr, Sharp) including Corey Durdin while we’re waiting for Jack Carroll to see if can push through.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Agreed. We will (and should) go to the draft. The recruiters should know the types Voss is looking for / likes - which is why clubs like Sydney and Geelong are so successful / Settled.

There is little chance they find a player who is decent but just doesn't fit the system. I hope we're building that understanding.

Hollands / Binns / Cowan / Cincotta - all play a style Voss loves. Dow not so much. That's where longevity and stability is such an advantage for a club. Long may it continue.

I can't wait to see who we bring in via the draft this year. If Fisher and Dow go we might have a fair bit of draft capital.

Late 2nd round at best for each of them. Fish is going for $, longer contract & mid minutes, Dow a place in a midfield. Neither are thought of as best 22 & realistically we will take 3rd round for Dow. I think Dow ends up at the Pies for ****all, think it’s the wrong move for us but that’s just MO

 

[HarryFlashman]

Not sure why people are getting so upset about the talk/idea/thought of trading H.
We kick around the idea of trading most players, it’s spit balling.
Personally I think it’s a very fair argument if we came out of it with a quality mid/tall forward like Fritsch (can play taller, great kick for goal) & a 1st round pick.
You would be hard pressed to convince me we wouldn’t at minimum be as well off as we are now & very likely better.

 

[tragic]

Love Harry...

However, I'd nearly rather trade him, now...
He's a big expense to our cap and is mentally cooked, can't even kick a goal from 10m out...

We'd get decent compensation and could target a cheaper option...

Just like Geelong should have traded Tom Hawkins when he had the kicking yips and was completely out of form in 2013!

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Would only trade Harry if we were getting a ridiculously good deal. Eg two first rounders or Errol Gulden.

He’s always going to be somewhat unreliable. Has the Joe Daniher vibe, but he is still a valuable component of our structure and overall list composition.

 

[Gointocarlton]

I cannot for the life me understand why it is that as soon as Harry plays a bad game, trade talk comes up (here and on other Carlton forums). Other teams would kill for what we have and some want to trade it away on the back of a bad performance or two.

 

[btdg]

A player that no other club bid on until pick 32 is a draft find in my book, i remember a lot of the draft watchers had him around 20 ish.

I’ve seen lots of people here say use our first and that’s it, i dont think that’s a good idea, the kids we got last year have been good, keep them coming.

The biggest advantage an academy provides is NOT the ability to draft players you wouldn't have access to (that's nice though). It isn't even the stupid points system and discount (which is also nice).

It is the extra information you get about a player by having them in your system. You get to see them train, play as part of your structures, how they interact with other players first-hand, how they respond to a professional environment, even whether they show up late to training.

Opposition clubs only get to see them in match simulation; but almost by definition academy players are hidden from view and playing in weaker competition. So opposition clubs have poor quality info to decide on a bid.

You then get to choose whether or not to keep them or let them slide.

With guys in that 20-ish range, bidding on academy prospects is inherently risky as an opposition club. Basically - if they are good, you won't get them. If they are a dud, then you WILL get them when the academy club passes. So you have to bid as though they are a dud...

So with Gulden: no-one really knew from the outside how good he was. Broadly, he was rated around 20. Sydney know he is actually really good and have zero interest in exposing this. Other clubs have to assume he isn't worth 20 and don't bid until 32. Sydney get him at 32, with a points discount applied.

The academy system is a complete and utter rort - take Blakey, Heeney, Gulden, Campbell, Mills and Wicks out of Sydney's team and replace them with average draftees and they are probably a bottom 4 team.

 

[klompy]

I cannot for the life me understand why it is that as soon as Harry plays a bad game, trade talk comes up (here and on other Carlton forums). Other teams would kill for what we have and some want to trade it away on the back of a bad performance or two.

Agree. Harry's problem is in his head. It is fixable. He just needs to work really hard on it and he will be something that every team in the comp would want. You don't shy away from development, you just need to work on it. Probably a focus for him during the off-season.

 

[HarryFlashman]

I cannot for the life me understand why it is that as soon as Harry plays a bad game, trade talk comes up (here and on other Carlton forums). Other teams would kill for what we have and some want to trade it away on the back of a bad performance or two.

Because we have Charlie - who’s better than he is. There’s questions about our ruck set up & when u watch Brisbanes set up it raises questions.
The way I see the thought pattern is as follows:
Brisbane is highly effective with a big ass ruckman & tall forward chopping out - JD is a tool of the highest order but is handy in the ruck, a very good & damaging field kick, a good around the ground mark & better than handy forward. Kmart is a useful forward & holds up his end in the forward line.

H & Charlie are better footballers than both of them, TDK isn’t a monster but is improving rapidly, also applies good defensive pressure & is now clunking some marks & winning some clearance.

Harry can’t ruck, so that creates a structure issue with 4 big men, Pitto isn’t mobile or useful forward.
JSOS works as a ruck chop out & is an incredibly smart footballer who lacks a spot on the ground when all 4 talls are playing. His footy iq is off the charts & just started playing his best footy (which was awesome) before he got injured.
So, if u have TDK as key ruck (Pitto in mothballs as a back up) JSOS chopping out ruck & playing high forward, Charlie as our key forward, attention turns to H.
His kicking is highly dubious- yes he may work thru it, he also may not, we sorely lack a high quality Mid size, accurate forward - trading H could get us that key piece & get us a 1st round draft pick as well.

Using Fritsch (or the like) as the example player - the net position is break even - 100% have to man him closely (freeing charlie to deal with 1 opponent) & will kick u circa 40-50+ goals. JSOS makes up for the bail out kicks down the line.

So u lose a questionable kick at goal & is replaced by a good forward, it gives JSOS a position, balances our ruck & u end up with free swing at a top rated kid (or trade the pick for a player).

I’m not saying we should it, but that’s a pretty well reasoned argument to as to why it’s brought up