TENACIOUS
Premiership Player
- Aug 16, 2008
- 3,948
- 14,898
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Their the stats I used also...
Of those stats what makes Jack the better forward/ ruck?
List Mgmt. 2023 List Management
- Thread starter Aphrodite
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Status
Of those stats what makes Jack the better forward/ ruck?
- Aug 22, 2014
- 14,016
- 51,129
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Both players have seen enough games in weird peripheral roles that you're not gotta get an accurate representation of what they're capable of based on blanket career numbers.
What I'm going off is the eye test, the top end output, and the tale of the tape.
Jack busts his arse every game, and every contest within every game. Chol does not. Point to JSOS (and a heavily weighted one, at that).
Looking at their career-best years up forward, Chol kicked 44 goals in 2022 (2 goals a game), whilst Jack's best return was in 2017 with 19 goals (at 0.9 a game). Undoubtedly, Chol has shown a better capacity to kick goals himself. There's not a lot between them on Goal Assists, though Jack is slightly ahead on Score Involvements. If you're playing mostly as a forward and wanting scoreboard impact, Chol has shown more (albeit in one very good season).
In the ruck, I'm mostly gonna look at 2023 as I don't have an easy tool to measure career stats and can't be arsed spreadsheeting it year-by-year.
JSOS - averaged 12.6 ruck contests a game, or 13% of ruck contests in the games he played. Averaged 2.9 hitouts, or a win percentage of 23%. Of those hitouts, on average only 1 per game was to advantage, or 33%.
Chol - averaged 14 ruck contests, or 14,5% of contests within his games. Averaged 3.1 hitouts, or a win percentage of 22.5%. Of those hitouts, on average 0.5 per game were to his team's advantage, or 16%.
Even when looking at Chol's "best" ruck year (2021 at Richmond, attending 47% of ruck contests), he was still only winning 32% of them, with 25% of those wins going to advantage. Winning 10% more hitouts at the same conversion rate doesn't seem overly impactful if you're talking about 10-12 contests a game.
I think the debate comes down to how you value JSOS's workrate and football smarts, against Chol's scoreboard impact and athletic profile. The athletic profile is a hard one to measure, you'd want to look at how each player's ruck numbers compare based on opponent size - ie. does Jack hit a ceiling at 200cm, and anyone above that is going to hand him his arse, while Chol can compete with blokes up to 206cm?
I'd argue that there's not much in it, and that as such the workrate and consistency of application is worth more to the team dynamic than the chance of an extra goal a game. That goal a game is also assuming career-best output for each, which isn't a given, but you could make a case is more likely from JSOS than it is from Chol...most years Chol is only good for a goal a game too.
What I'm going off is the eye test, the top end output, and the tale of the tape.
Jack busts his arse every game, and every contest within every game. Chol does not. Point to JSOS (and a heavily weighted one, at that).
Looking at their career-best years up forward, Chol kicked 44 goals in 2022 (2 goals a game), whilst Jack's best return was in 2017 with 19 goals (at 0.9 a game). Undoubtedly, Chol has shown a better capacity to kick goals himself. There's not a lot between them on Goal Assists, though Jack is slightly ahead on Score Involvements. If you're playing mostly as a forward and wanting scoreboard impact, Chol has shown more (albeit in one very good season).
In the ruck, I'm mostly gonna look at 2023 as I don't have an easy tool to measure career stats and can't be arsed spreadsheeting it year-by-year.
JSOS - averaged 12.6 ruck contests a game, or 13% of ruck contests in the games he played. Averaged 2.9 hitouts, or a win percentage of 23%. Of those hitouts, on average only 1 per game was to advantage, or 33%.
Chol - averaged 14 ruck contests, or 14,5% of contests within his games. Averaged 3.1 hitouts, or a win percentage of 22.5%. Of those hitouts, on average 0.5 per game were to his team's advantage, or 16%.
Even when looking at Chol's "best" ruck year (2021 at Richmond, attending 47% of ruck contests), he was still only winning 32% of them, with 25% of those wins going to advantage. Winning 10% more hitouts at the same conversion rate doesn't seem overly impactful if you're talking about 10-12 contests a game.
I think the debate comes down to how you value JSOS's workrate and football smarts, against Chol's scoreboard impact and athletic profile. The athletic profile is a hard one to measure, you'd want to look at how each player's ruck numbers compare based on opponent size - ie. does Jack hit a ceiling at 200cm, and anyone above that is going to hand him his arse, while Chol can compete with blokes up to 206cm?
I'd argue that there's not much in it, and that as such the workrate and consistency of application is worth more to the team dynamic than the chance of an extra goal a game. That goal a game is also assuming career-best output for each, which isn't a given, but you could make a case is more likely from JSOS than it is from Chol...most years Chol is only good for a goal a game too.
Last edited:
He's better in most of them
bradfisher14
Not actually Brad Fisher
Chol is intriguing but I think Lemmey will go past him soon.
Want Chol a couple of years ago, think we have gone past that type now
- Apr 16, 2008
- 10,765
- 31,026
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Have I stumbled onto the Suns board?
There's no Chol here, here, there's no Chol.
There's no Chol here, here, there's no Chol.
Wickzki
Definitely Sam MacLure.
- Oct 1, 2010
- 26,470
- 63,606
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Ophidians Old Boys, Blazers, MCFC
Silvagni is ten times the footballer Chol is
Chol can and does have purple patches and is a much better pure athlete than is Jack
But Chol lacks an ounce of a football brain and from reports lacks the work ethic to reduce its impact. He's the type of player who can get the ball five times in a quarter which should lead the three or four goals to him and his team ****ing **** it up so badly that it results in three or four goals going the other way. He's openly mocked locally for it. It's primarily why he was out of their 22 most of the year. They much prefer Levi.
That said I'd love a Chol type athlete on the list who had some footy IQ. Would be the perfect complement to TDK.
But it's not Chol
Last edited:
- Aug 22, 2014
- 14,016
- 51,129
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Would be very open to the club trialing Dom Akuei in a forward/ruck role at reserves level. Even if it's just so that we've got another break glass option down the track. I think that's almost preferable - cheap player who could easily exist on the list for 3-4 more years, playing mostly reserves, but filling a very niche requirement from a depth perspective.
It's more realistic than finding an AFL-quality forward/ruck that we can squeeze in alongside Harry and Charlie and TDK who won't cost too much, or a borderline AFL-quality forward/ruck who is willing to move clubs and play mostly VFL.
Dom's only 21 years old, height listings vary from one place to another, but the club website has both he and Jack at 194cm. Believe he has Jack covered in the vertical leap fairly comfortably.
With Kemp coming on as a defender, Marchbank seemingly fit again, Gov signed up, and the prospect of maybe recruiting a young key defender in the next year or two - forward/ruck could be the natural pivot for Dom both from our list needs and the best opportunity for him and his football.
It's more realistic than finding an AFL-quality forward/ruck that we can squeeze in alongside Harry and Charlie and TDK who won't cost too much, or a borderline AFL-quality forward/ruck who is willing to move clubs and play mostly VFL.
Dom's only 21 years old, height listings vary from one place to another, but the club website has both he and Jack at 194cm. Believe he has Jack covered in the vertical leap fairly comfortably.
With Kemp coming on as a defender, Marchbank seemingly fit again, Gov signed up, and the prospect of maybe recruiting a young key defender in the next year or two - forward/ruck could be the natural pivot for Dom both from our list needs and the best opportunity for him and his football.
I would be surprised if Dom is on our list beyond 2024. Must be upgraded to the main list to continue. We are going to be struggling to find list spots next season as it is. Dom could have a decent highlights compilation, and I don’t doubt him on the score of ability. Either application or football acumen, or both are missing. He does not have a large enough body of work.
If someone could flick a switch and have him fully focussed, I have little doubt he has the ability, but on output, he will need a massive spike to be persisted with beyond his rookie limit next season. He will need to command a spot to be retained, not be around the mark. Spots are too tight.
- Aug 16, 2015
- 12,317
- 21,334
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Arsenal
Chol if going off his 2022 numbers would be a fantastic addition for us, 2nd ruck behind TDK who provides a target up forward. UIts very weird how much he has dropped off this year.
On a seperate note, this could be a big issue for GC, Chol left Richmond to go home to Queensland, where he signed a long term deal, i remember him talking about moving back to where his family were. If I’m Chol, I’m not sure I’m interested in leaving, unless its to the Lions.
Prefer to see both Akuei and Kemp in the forward half, for different reasons for both players
Kemp had had his best season to date in defence. You would not want to move him to the forward line.
We will find out in time
Bletch
Premium Platinum
- Dec 8, 2020
- 3,973
- 12,647
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Think it could only happen if H will take 2nd ruck duties (and works on it over the break). Last thing we need is a 3rd tall fwd who doesn't ruck.
The Return of the Paf
Club Legend
- Aug 22, 2020
- 1,609
- 1,896
- AFL Club
- Carlton
I'm not saying that I want us to recruit Chol, but it would be a mistake to make recruiting decisions based on having Lemmey on the list.
Last edited:
- Aug 22, 2014
- 14,016
- 51,129
- AFL Club
- Carlton
What on earth are you suggesting?
The Return of the Paf
Club Legend
- Aug 22, 2020
- 1,609
- 1,896
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Don't worry, I've deleted that part of my post. I was probably being a bit too abstract to bother with at this stage.
Last edited:
While we would be regarded as having an “established” list now, we have enough glorious, intriguing uncertainties to keep us thinking.
The Irish lads, Monahan’s physical attributes (189cm) and athleticism raise questions. Does he start back as many/most of the Irish recruits do? (We are stacked in defence), forward, or will he pickup the game and become a winger midfield option going forward?
Duffy is even more intriguing at 194cm and as athletic as **** Peripheral role like his countryman is likely to have? In the middle as he shows an inclination to bring others around him in to the game? Or, having sufficient size, does he add to our tall, even key position mix?
Kempy has been debated extensively and I have been in the camp that he potentially plays better ultimately as a hybrid forward/mid. Realistically, he has looked less assured forward as a playmaker over his time at the club. That could relate to either him or our systems, time will tell. I much prefer that if he stays in defence, we try to free him up from a predominantly accountable role. Currently making a great fist of the second key position, despite being undersized due to his athleticism. His inclinations and instincts are more as a ball player than an accountable one, so he is currently doing a great job. Gov has the interceptor, less accountable role tied up (when fit), but ideally I see us drafting our next key defender in the near future who can move in to the second tall role and with maturity ultimately take over from Weiters as our key pillar in a few years. Kemp could be an absolute weapon in the McGovern role. He is “untapped” and could ultimately end up in any third of the ground. Maybe Crippa’s. successor in a few years. Heaps to play out.
Motlop and Corey Durdin are both “modern” forwards. Mots has taken some huge strides forward in the back end of the season. I love little Durds, and his work rate is huge. Just struggling still on transition positioning to be making an optimum impact. Not helped by some nagging injury interruptions. Both boys have midfield inclinations and are excellent link players, but surely their role remains forward first. Motlop clearly has the more instinctual, x-factor game, with Durds the better pressure player. Both have a massive advantage over Owies and Fogarty long term, in that they can hit the scoreboard from 50 metres.
Cottrell is another thought of as a winger by most, but does his best work as a half forward. Running defensively he is a great piece if the puzzle, but can get lost against smarter wingmen positionally. For mine, better as the “extra” than an accountable wing. Has a happy knack of finding space forward and a reliable kick at goal, anywhere inside the arc.
Cowan becomes interesting with our oversupply of half back types. His combative game with an already imposing body and a canon of a boot saw us reach for him. Now with McGovern and Marchbank fit and Cincotta and Boyd being real top grade options alongside Saad, Newman, returning Williams and at times Doc, Moo’s pathway to the top side is somewhat clouded. Do we “experiment” with him in the middle or on a wing? Could he even show some forward tricks?
What about the wings? Acres has created a home for himself, does a wonderful job mopping up behind the ball and no slouch attacking either. Ollie Hollands is ahead of his years for application, endurance and the ability to read play. Is going to be a gun wingman at very least, however I see him transitioning in to the middle in a couple of years or so as mids like Hewett and Crippa age with the bumps and bruises of the contested game. I believe Dutchy will fill out a lot more than many expect, although his endurance inclinations probably make it a slower process than for some. Can we find a spot for Jaxon Binns who could hardly have done more to earn a game in our seconds? Binns is likely to figure in the final VFL team of the year in his first season. Probably capable of playing a role forward or back, but just “screams” wingman, more so than Dutchy for mine.
What are we doing with Lewis Young? How much of a disconnect has there been with Weiters? Does he remain a long term defensive option in our firsts, or has he merely become depth? He is a confidence player who thrives in responsibility, I am not sure he comes back from this decline. Capable ruck depth and not useless forward, but hard to see him long term with our stacked list with the current “hierarchy.” With big Nigel as cheap back up for the durable Weitering, Youngy might be a win/win if he considers a trade to one of the teams in need of a key defender. Not sure if his contract value, but he seemed to be a long term best 18 player when re-signed, and looks far from that now with Kempy preferred as the second tall and his game growing consistently.
These aren’t the only questions, but enough to keep us thinking, let alone the brains trust.
The Irish lads, Monahan’s physical attributes (189cm) and athleticism raise questions. Does he start back as many/most of the Irish recruits do? (We are stacked in defence), forward, or will he pickup the game and become a winger midfield option going forward?
Duffy is even more intriguing at 194cm and as athletic as **** Peripheral role like his countryman is likely to have? In the middle as he shows an inclination to bring others around him in to the game? Or, having sufficient size, does he add to our tall, even key position mix?
Kempy has been debated extensively and I have been in the camp that he potentially plays better ultimately as a hybrid forward/mid. Realistically, he has looked less assured forward as a playmaker over his time at the club. That could relate to either him or our systems, time will tell. I much prefer that if he stays in defence, we try to free him up from a predominantly accountable role. Currently making a great fist of the second key position, despite being undersized due to his athleticism. His inclinations and instincts are more as a ball player than an accountable one, so he is currently doing a great job. Gov has the interceptor, less accountable role tied up (when fit), but ideally I see us drafting our next key defender in the near future who can move in to the second tall role and with maturity ultimately take over from Weiters as our key pillar in a few years. Kemp could be an absolute weapon in the McGovern role. He is “untapped” and could ultimately end up in any third of the ground. Maybe Crippa’s. successor in a few years. Heaps to play out.
Motlop and Corey Durdin are both “modern” forwards. Mots has taken some huge strides forward in the back end of the season. I love little Durds, and his work rate is huge. Just struggling still on transition positioning to be making an optimum impact. Not helped by some nagging injury interruptions. Both boys have midfield inclinations and are excellent link players, but surely their role remains forward first. Motlop clearly has the more instinctual, x-factor game, with Durds the better pressure player. Both have a massive advantage over Owies and Fogarty long term, in that they can hit the scoreboard from 50 metres.
Cottrell is another thought of as a winger by most, but does his best work as a half forward. Running defensively he is a great piece if the puzzle, but can get lost against smarter wingmen positionally. For mine, better as the “extra” than an accountable wing. Has a happy knack of finding space forward and a reliable kick at goal, anywhere inside the arc.
Cowan becomes interesting with our oversupply of half back types. His combative game with an already imposing body and a canon of a boot saw us reach for him. Now with McGovern and Marchbank fit and Cincotta and Boyd being real top grade options alongside Saad, Newman, returning Williams and at times Doc, Moo’s pathway to the top side is somewhat clouded. Do we “experiment” with him in the middle or on a wing? Could he even show some forward tricks?
What about the wings? Acres has created a home for himself, does a wonderful job mopping up behind the ball and no slouch attacking either. Ollie Hollands is ahead of his years for application, endurance and the ability to read play. Is going to be a gun wingman at very least, however I see him transitioning in to the middle in a couple of years or so as mids like Hewett and Crippa age with the bumps and bruises of the contested game. I believe Dutchy will fill out a lot more than many expect, although his endurance inclinations probably make it a slower process than for some. Can we find a spot for Jaxon Binns who could hardly have done more to earn a game in our seconds? Binns is likely to figure in the final VFL team of the year in his first season. Probably capable of playing a role forward or back, but just “screams” wingman, more so than Dutchy for mine.
What are we doing with Lewis Young? How much of a disconnect has there been with Weiters? Does he remain a long term defensive option in our firsts, or has he merely become depth? He is a confidence player who thrives in responsibility, I am not sure he comes back from this decline. Capable ruck depth and not useless forward, but hard to see him long term with our stacked list with the current “hierarchy.” With big Nigel as cheap back up for the durable Weitering, Youngy might be a win/win if he considers a trade to one of the teams in need of a key defender. Not sure if his contract value, but he seemed to be a long term best 18 player when re-signed, and looks far from that now with Kempy preferred as the second tall and his game growing consistently.
These aren’t the only questions, but enough to keep us thinking, let alone the brains trust.
thylacine60
Post-Human
- Banned
- #8,794
poty thus far........
- Aug 16, 2009
- 7,848
- 11,678
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- North Ballarat
They're very different players & it depends on what role we'd want them playing in our side.
Chol is more of a genuine ruck-forward which the stats reflect & JSOS more well rounded.
- Jul 13, 2018
- 1,158
- 2,653
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Potm at best
thylacine60
Post-Human
- Banned
- #8,797
harsh
- Dec 22, 2006
- 9,717
- 11,594
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Tottenham Hotspur
That is a very interesting way to look at it, and perhaps this is why we re-signed Akuei who at the time made little sense and then I thought lying our Mirkov this year would be beneficial however if we did this and replaced him with a draftee with a min 2 year contract we may land ourselves in trouble having to make a call on someone we didn’t wish to, may also be the reason we were trying to offer JSOS a 1 year deal.
- Dec 22, 2006
- 9,717
- 11,594
- AFL Club
- Carlton
- Other Teams
- Tottenham Hotspur
If the choice is JSOS v Chol it’s an easy one and don’t discount the value to our club in holding a player by the name of Silvagni.. His work rate, passion and being a fan favourite put him well ahead of any slight advantage Chol might have in talent.
It's LOBS lack of physicality that got him undone and caused the average disposal efficiency. So many on here were obsessed with him lol
Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk
- Status
Similar threads
