List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Crippa#9]

I cannot for the life me understand why it is that as soon as Harry plays a bad game, trade talk comes up (here and on other Carlton forums). Other teams would kill for what we have and some want to trade it away on the back of a bad performance or two.

Ideally Harry is playing for Carlton. When he’s at his best he’s awesome.

But - when is the last time we’ve seen him dominate circa 2021?

The trade talk is relevant however because he’s not delivering on a massive investment. It’s no different to Melbourne & Grundy.

Harry would be worth 2 x Top 15 picks and a trade frees up massive coin to target a quality free agent. Effectively Austin could generate THREE seriously good players for one…

Put it this way:
Option A: Stick with Harry (and hope that he turns it around)

Option B: Player like Jake Riccardi? + 2 x Top 15 Draft picks

 

[Gointocarlton]

Ideally Harry is playing for Carlton. When he’s at his best he’s awesome.

But - when is the last time we’ve seen him dominate circa 2021?

The trade talk is relevant however because he’s not delivering on a massive investment. It’s no different to Melbourne & Grundy.

Harry would be worth 2 x Top 15 picks and a trade frees up massive coin to target a quality free agent. Effectively Austin could generate THREE seriously good players for one…

Put it this way:
Option A: Stick with Harry (and hope that he turns it around)

Option B: Player like Jake Riccardi? + 2 x Top 15 Draft picks

Ill bet both the family jewels Voss will choose option A and back the big fella in every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[Crippa#9]

Ill bet both the family jewels Voss will choose option A and back the big fella in every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I have no doubt & for the record I’m not strong on trading Harry but, am perhaps more open minded to it as some given the ‘overs’ the market will pay for a player of his CV.

Remember, Hawthorn lost Buddy at the end of 2013 after losing the GF…

With cap space and extra picks they bring in Ben McEvoy, James Frawley and recruit James Sicily.

They then win the 2014 & 2015 Premierships.

(Roughead kicking 75, Gunston kicking 58)

It would be hard and disappointing to see H plying for another club but I don’t believe it would be a disaster.

Anyway, it’s a mute point he ain’t going anywhere.

 

[DangerousD]

Just like Geelong should have traded Tom Hawkins when he had the kicking yips and was completely out of form in 2013!

You need to do better than this.

Hawkins kicked 49.20 in 2013 which is probably elite conversion

 

[thylacine60]

I have no doubt & for the record I’m not strong on trading Harry but, am perhaps more open minded to it as some given the ‘overs’ the market will pay for a player of his CV.

Remember, Hawthorn lost Buddy at the end of 2013 after losing the GF…

With cap space and extra picks they bring in Ben McEvoy, James Frawley and recruit James Sicily.

They then win the 2014 & 2015 Premierships.

(Roughead kicking 75, Gunston kicking 58)

It would be hard and disappointing to see H plying for another club but I don’t believe it would be a disaster.

Anyway, it’s a mute point he ain’t going anywhere.

Wish these moot points would become a tad more mute.

 

[tragic]

You need to do better than this.

Hawkins kicked 49.20 in 2013 which is probably elite conversion

Tomahawk can't bend but Taylor wants him in finals

Geelong defender Harry Taylor has backed out-of-form forward Tom Hawkins to have an influence in the finals despite a nagging back problem.

thewest.com.au

 

[My Hat]

Form is temporary. Talent endures.

H stays.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

The biggest advantage an academy provides is NOT the ability to draft players you wouldn't have access to (that's nice though). It isn't even the stupid points system and discount (which is also nice).

It is the extra information you get about a player by having them in your system. You get to see them train, play as part of your structures, how they interact with other players first-hand, how they respond to a professional environment, even whether they show up late to training.

Opposition clubs only get to see them in match simulation; but almost by definition academy players are hidden from view and playing in weaker competition. So opposition clubs have poor quality info to decide on a bid.

You then get to choose whether or not to keep them or let them slide.

With guys in that 20-ish range, bidding on academy prospects is inherently risky as an opposition club. Basically - if they are good, you won't get them. If they are a dud, then you WILL get them when the academy club passes. So you have to bid as though they are a dud...

So with Gulden: no-one really knew from the outside how good he was. Broadly, he was rated around 20. Sydney know he is actually really good and have zero interest in exposing this. Other clubs have to assume he isn't worth 20 and don't bid until 32. Sydney get him at 32, with a points discount applied.

The academy system is a complete and utter rort - take Blakey, Heeney, Gulden, Campbell, Mills and Wicks out of Sydney's team and replace them with average draftees and they are probably a bottom 4 team.

My take on father/sons and the academy is that (if managed correctly) it opens up a club's list management to make more long-term decisions. You can't exactly regulate the playing positions of 'said' players nor know precisely when the bids will come. You wouldn't pass on talent, even if the player doesn't exactly fill an immediate need. It also 'forces' a club to make other changes it might not otherwise be inclined to make. It usually turns out well for the clubs involved but if the same players were available in an open draft, the club in question's draft/trade haul would look radically different.

 

[Crippa#9]

Wish these moot points would become a tad more mute.

A football forum with differing views…who would have thought

 

[thylacine60]

A football forum…who would have thought

relax, grammar check is your friend.....

 

[Aphrodite]

Trading Harry now are we

 

[Beyond Blue]

You need to do better than this.

Hawkins kicked 49.20 in 2013 which is probably elite conversion

I also remember Hawkins handballed to Stevie J after taking a mark 15 metres out directly in front in the last quarter of the 2011 grand final, so petrified he was to go back and take a set shot at one stage. Also cost them a final against Port a few years back with his early misses. His goalkicking accuracy is hardly elite but his contribution has been elite. Same with Richo, Nick Riewoldt, Travis Cloke, Daniher etc, even Buddy (cost them the 2012 flag) and Charlie were pretty unreliable shots a goal especially early doors. Mint everyone is Matthew Lloyd, Dunstall, Lockett accurate.

It’s a moot point for mine anyway as the coaches are rightly playing him up the ground where he is a making a huge contribution. He leads very well and is an elite contested mark. He is also elite for his movement (speed and endurance) and competes really well for someone his size. Compare that to Max King who is basically out of the contest if he doesn’t mark the ball. I reckon the coaches and list managers know they have something special with him and Charlie signed up for the next 6 years.

 

[JustaBattler]

A football forum with differing views…who would have thought

Yep - everyone is entitled to an opinion and on this board - every opinion has equal merit this has been written!

So go for it- maybe Charlie and Harry should be put on the table- we'd get 2-3 first-rounders a second rounder and maybe more! for sure a massive reduction in salary cap pressure and we can use this to find a couple of forwards just like Harry and Charlie- but this time cheaper...because cheaper is beetta - well that is my opinion I like cheaper and better !

" wont happen of course" but hey it is an opinion and worthy of discussion I reckon.

 

[klompy]

I remember the great Sticks Kernahan having the yips for a long time.
The old Carlton dumps people when things aren't going well. A lesson the club learned this year is to stick by its people and have faith. If there is a weakness (which we all have) then apply development to the weakness. If the club looks for perfection in its people, it will be forever looking. Harry just needs intensive development in the mental aspect of the game. A 6ft 10 marking machine who can run the like the wind is worth its weight in gold. Develop, develop, develop. That is the modern day high performance way

 

[Blue Heart]

Ill bet both the family jewels Voss will choose option A and back the big fella in every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Harry's lack of goal kicking numbers does beg the question of how long are Vossy and the club prepared to stick with him, if he
has another season or even two of not consistently kicking goals ? When does their patience run out ?

 

[DangerousD]

Tomahawk can't bend but Taylor wants him in finals

Geelong defender Harry Taylor has backed out-of-form forward Tom Hawkins to have an influence in the finals despite a nagging back problem.

thewest.com.au

Still no relevance, you’ve referenced Hawkins having the kicking yips and being hopelessly out of form in a season he kicked 49.20.

That’s a 71% conversion rate

 

[The Return of the Paf]

I also remember Hawkins handballed to Stevie J after taking a mark 15 metres out directly in front in the last quarter of the 2011 grand final, so petrified he was to go back and take a set shot at one stage. Also cost them a final against Port a few years back with his early misses. His goalkicking accuracy is hardly elite but his contribution has been elite. Same with Richo, Nick Riewoldt, Travis Cloke, Daniher etc, even Buddy (cost them the 2012 flag) and Charlie were pretty unreliable shots a goal especially early doors. Mint everyone is Matthew Lloyd, Dunstall, Lockett accurate.

It’s a moot point for mine anyway as the coaches are rightly playing him up the ground where he is a making a huge contribution. He leads very well and is an elite contested mark. He is also elite for his movement (speed and endurance) and competes really well for someone his size. Compare that to Max King who is basically out of the contest if he doesn’t mark the ball. I reckon the coaches and list managers know they have something special with him and Charlie signed up for the next 6 years.

Max King is actually pretty mobile and is good at getting into the right places, he just needs to learn that he's not always going to get the service he thinks he needs to contribute the way he'd like. When and if the penny drops he's going to be hard to stop.

 

[DangerousD]

I also remember Hawkins handballed to Stevie J after taking a mark 15 metres out directly in front in the last quarter of the 2011 grand final, so petrified he was to go back and take a set shot at one stage. Also cost them a final against Port a few years back with his early misses. His goalkicking accuracy is hardly elite but his contribution has been elite. Same with Richo, Nick Riewoldt, Travis Cloke, Daniher etc, even Buddy (cost them the 2012 flag) and Charlie were pretty unreliable shots a goal especially early doors. Mint everyone is Matthew Lloyd, Dunstall, Lockett accurate.

It’s a moot point for mine anyway as the coaches are rightly playing him up the ground where he is a making a huge contribution. He leads very well and is an elite contested mark. He is also elite for his movement (speed and endurance) and competes really well for someone his size. Compare that to Max King who is basically out of the contest if he doesn’t mark the ball. I reckon the coaches and list managers know they have something special with him and Charlie signed up for the next 6 years.

Outside of goal kicking, Harry’s game has improved on nearly every level, the downside is his goal kicking has turned to crap and to me it’s purely mental.

Harry is on big money and with big money comes expectation and rightfully so.

At the seasons end the club needs to sit down with Harry and find a solution to what is going on, regardless of how he is going up the ground, Harry has a problem, but it’s one that hopefully can improve.

As many people have said, you lose confidence, you don’t lose ability.

 

[tragic]

Still no relevance, you’ve referenced Hawkins having the kicking yips and being hopelessly out of form in a season he kicked 49.20.

That’s a 71% conversion rate

Did you use a calculator or you work that out yourself?.. Taylor would rather still have Hawkins playing in a final not at peak fitness and out of form then not because KEY forwards win finals...They are so hard to get and people want to trade him...end of..

 

[Arr0w]

I remember when people wanted to trade Cripps, interesting discussions

 

[thylacine60]

Harry's lack of goal kicking numbers does beg the question of how long are Vossy and the club prepared to stick with him, if he
has another season or even two of not consistently kicking goals ? When does their patience run out ?

please direct your enquiry to cook, voss & sayers..........report your findings back here..........

 

[Arr0w]

Also remembered that we were trading Weitering for a 2nd rounder

Those were interesting discussions too

 

[thylacine60]

I remember when people wanted to trade Cripps, interesting discussions

same cohort wanted to sack voss & russell and apologize to rtb for our disgraceful treatment of him............

 

[DirtyLeeds]

It's "moot", not "mute"; as in Jessie's Girl"....'I wanna tell her that I love her, but the point is probably moot'; open to discussion, debatable.
It's like hearing a kid say " who are you versing this weekend?"

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Harry's lack of goal kicking numbers does beg the question of how long are Vossy and the club prepared to stick with him, if he
has another season or even two of not consistently kicking goals ? When does their patience run out ?

When Harry won the Coleman and had his so called best season we finished 13th with 8 wins (in a season we regressed) and sacked a coach.

His kicking for goal is concerning but fixable. Fortunately we don't rely on him to kick our winning scores anymore, however we do rely on him to be that get out kick between the arcs, to work up and down the ground getting involvedin transition, and to drag defenders away from Charlie who sits deeper and benefits. All of which he is elite at.

I would be livid if we moved him on.