Autopsy 2023 Rd 12 No end to misery in sight

[Manhattanite]

We'll be 14th on the ladder after this week

The contrarian in me thinks “we will move up to pick 5 this weekend”




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[Kruezing]

We'll be 14th on the ladder after this week

I tipped this 5 weeks ago and no one gave me so much as a chuckle … we have been deplorable this season (Geelong game the anomaly) since the first bounce in round one …

 

[gab213]

Problem with that analysis is that the Dees could not have played more poorly themselves yet had us easily covered all night....

They were rubbish, we were beyond putrid.

It goes further than that, this is the test of the maturity and resolve of our club to work through the problems. This is the moment for us to show that we are a serious club. I can tell you one thing, it is not losing games this year which will cause me to disengage, what will do it for me is us sacking another coach without working on fixing things first. Voss needs to see out his contract IMO.

 

[BlueBayou]

It goes further than that, this is the test of the maturity and resolve of our club to work through the problems. This is the moment for us to show that we are a serious club. I can tell you one thing, it is not losing games this year which will cause me to disengage, what will do it for me is us sacking another coach without working on fixing things first. Voss needs to see out his contract IMO.

I totally agree, the coaching merry go round has to stop. The players cannot be empowered to be in a position to determine the Coaches future through their actions (or lack of them)

 

[Pixelshooter]

The sad part is the game went exactly how I thought it would. Had zero expectations...zero disappointment after the game. Have just completely lost interest at this point. We're absolutely miles away from it both on and off the field.

 

[GoBlues!]

Hodge is the dream result for me!

Yeah, but what about getting him to the club to help charred fate.

 

[Gez1969]

In 2022 we were far more attacking, great to watch but got scored heavily against (5-6 goal runs) and I think many of us agreed that the side needed some extra defensive structure and composure to close out close games. Frustrating, but, get planning and close those gaps.
What we have become in 2023 is slow, defensive, predictable and low scoring. Worse, players seem confused with how they are meant to move from defense into attack, they turn it over regularly. The result, an increasingly dispirited on field presence. They actual look timid and meek and have somehow lost the ability to execute relatively basic skills - the tackling and lack of pressure last night was an embarrassment.
What really bugs me is the idea that you MUST be either an attacking side or a defensive side. Good sides do both and more importantly know when to do it.
Watching Voss talk the crap he has in pressers just adds insult to injury, culminating in him saying that "we're just not good enough".
Rubbish, we have plenty of talent. The plan is diabolical and he is not prepared to tinker with it despite the mounting evidence that it does not work.
HE is not good enough at the moment. Take some ownership of YOUR plan and vow to be better.
I understand that a public hanging of Voss does little now but I would like him to come out and take some of the blame rather than push it on a side that obviously has little faith in the plan.
We need hope that things can change.

 

[Bringbackeddie]

How did we manage to go backwards from last year? It’s astonishing. Season is done at the half way point.

There is something very wrong with the culture at Carlton at the moment.

Our club is being managed like a kids soccer team and that culture is being driven from the very top of the club administration. This is elite sport - brutal, ruthless and narcissistic. Winning is what matters above all else.

We seem to be so caught up with how players ‘feel’ that we’re not concentrating on building a resilient performance based culture. These guys are professional footballers - getting dropped for bad form, copping a spray for not putting in or getting called out for making mistakes - it’s all part of the deal. It’s hard, but softening it down is totally counterproductive - you don’t build resilience, self confidence and belief - all crucial elements for success.

Culture takes a long time to sort out, but it flows down from the top. If we want a more performance based culture at CFC the first thing that needs to happen is a change at the top of the administration.

No champion player or wonder coach is going to thrive under the current culture - the president needs to go and the board needs to be expunged of the virtue signalling woke style that has infected the club from the top.

 

[Benga]

The state of the Carlton fanbase is more concerning to me than the onfield product at the moment - incredible given the state of the latter. Every game we fail to win, the tension manages to reach new heights. It’s understandable because we’ve been suffering for so long and it feels like another false dawn dissolving in our grasp - but it’s really not helping, nor does it have any nuanced understanding of where we are. If we are to truly break this vicious cycle we are trapped in, we need to assess our current state and determine what course of actions will most effectively advance us towards our end goal.

My view has always been that getting flogged is bad, but supporters shirking it - leaving early and abusing players - is the absolute worst. A combination of 20+ years of heartbreaking failures and a media machine hellbent on seeing us burn has whipped us into a frenzy. It’s not good, and it exposes deep scars within the wider Carlton family. Sitting at games and hearing Blues fans vocally turning on players has made me feel ashamed - it’s not everyone and I have no issue with a bit of frustration at a repeated mistake or weak effort, but I struggle to think of a supporter base I’ve encountered who have turned on their own more quickly than these last few weeks.

All of this is from someone who is equally dismayed and frustrated by what we are seeing. However, all this talk of the world burning is greatly exaggerated and I truly believe things are not as bad as they seem.

Why?

1 - the highest levels of the club seem to, for the first time, have some sort of conviction in extricating us from the ‘old Carlton’ mentality. The board standing resolute against the egomaniacal powerbrokers warms the heart. It’s that cultural cancer that has gnawed away at us ever since we stopped being able to throw money at problems and buy our way out. These agitators falsely parade under the guise of passion and love for the club, but to them, it is always about THEM. Brashness. Impatience. Finger pointing. Machinations in the shadows. Good riddance.

Weak clubs bow to pressure as a release valve when the heat is turned up. We have some course corrections still to do, but we must avoid the knee jerk, scorched earth folly of the past. Things take time. Let them play out and don’t make the mistake of snuffing out the flame before it’s had a chance to catch alight. Naturally, you must also have the sense to abandon course if you have enough evidence to be sure it’s not the right one

2 - our on-field performance, looking beyond the 4pts, has more merit than some give credit… the inability to score is infuriating, but we have built a resilient and effective defensive style of play. It’s not enough to win games right now, but it is difficult to do correctly and it must be taught and built over time and constantly reinforced.

We have been competitive at nearly all times of every game, bar a couple of really ugly quarters. Surely others also bear the scars of our teams from 10-15 years ago not being able to defend their way out of a wet paper bag. This side has better constitution than that and I believe defensive grit and discipline is more difficult to instil in a playing group

3 - the failure of our current game plan to play modern attacking footy - corridor, run, punish turnovers and move the ball quickly - is partially a planning issue but very significantly, a personnel issue. The SOS era of list building, aside from nailing the 2015 crop (albeit with 4 first rounders), has left us completely ill-equipped to play in this exciting run-and-gun fashion. Take a look at our draft history - so many years wasted.

I have major issues with how we are coaching right now, but you cannot simply will slick ball movement into existence - you must have the cattle. We have a noted lack of legspeed and foot skills, arguably the two most important traits in this era of AFL. So what is Voss meant to do to mirror Collingwood’s brilliance when his cupboard is completely lacking players with either, let alone both, of those things? I am not saying he’s even the right man to lead us forward, but we have to accept it’s not as simple as clicking your fingers. The contrast between H1 and H2 last night was quite stark for me even still, and we simply have to mirror the more attacking mentality from last night’s second half more regularly from the outset to seize the initiative

We are hurting in a big way with all those wasted drafts and while I am a sucker for optimism, I have been pleased by Austin’s early returns - finding the right sort of players to balance our list and they are clearly coming on quickly enough to be playing early. It’s just not an overnight fix unfortunately

These words will provide little comfort and I am certainly not telling anyone they can’t be pissed off. We have all been through it. Footy has brought us nothing but pain for as long as we can remember, and so many true Blue fans have stuck through thick and thin. But continue to play our role as supporters too - support the team, the organisation - and spurn the saboteurs (whether they claim to be Carlton people or from the outside looking in) who want nothing more than to sow chaos.

To reiterate, I am also not even saying Vossy, or any specific figures, are going to be there when we win our next flag. We have to continually scrutinise and re-assess all aspects of the club. The game plan and list building needs to get a wriggle on. But have faith in the broader system and continue, despite the frustration, to invest in these painful steps towards becoming a proper club again. Our emotions are being intentionally stoked to see red and ignore any of the subtler context at play.

Now, whether you agree or you’d rather sack everyone tomorrow, we are all hurting immensely this year. Take the weekend to forget about this horrid run of results and not let it bring you down any more than it has to. Good luck.

This is a cracking post, and far too well measured for this place

 

[passmark]

Listening to the Voss presser gave me some hope.
Said that players were being too conservative in their decisions and a bit a worried about mistakes, which is something many on here have highlighted for some time.
Also said straight up we just aren’t good enough at the moment.
He seemed pretty relaxed but focused.
Hope he gets it right, not sure I’ve got another sacked coach in me just at the moment.

 

[SammaGilberto]

H marked this, but pls fix.

 

[passmark]

How did we manage to go backwards from last year? It’s astonishing. Season is done at the half way point.

There is something very wrong with the culture at Carlton at the moment.

Our club is being managed like a kids soccer team and that culture is being driven from the very top of the club administration. This is elite sport - brutal, ruthless and narcissistic. Winning is what matters above all else.

We seem to be so caught up with how players ‘feel’ that we’re not concentrating on building a resilient performance based culture. These guys are professional footballers - getting dropped for bad form, copping a spray for not putting in or getting called out for making mistakes - it’s all part of the deal. It’s hard, but softening it down is totally counterproductive - you don’t build resilience, self confidence and belief - all crucial elements for success.

Culture takes a long time to sort out, but it flows down from the top. If we want a more performance based culture at CFC the first thing that needs to happen is a change at the top of the administration.

No champion player or wonder coach is going to thrive under the current culture - the president needs to go and the board needs to be expunged of the virtue signalling woke style that has infected the club from the top.

What’s virtue signalling woke style and how does it affect our kicking for goal?

 

[le dominateur]

We are a mile off it. Half a dozen blokes that cannot tackle to save themselves.
Spine is the softest in the league. Curnow was slaughtered by May, won a couple of contests but comprehensively lost the rest, waits out the back of the contest to try for a cheap goal. Better game from McKay but still falls to the ground at the slightest pressure or contact. Weitering and Young lack any form of aggression. Captain Cripps get blocked from the football by blokes half his size.
This group ain’t going anywhere near finals.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I understand the desire for stability etc, but all the examples given in the past where it’s paid off like Thompson, Hardwick, Buckley and Goodwin, they had all coached their respective sides to finals appearances and finals wins.

Check my post in Voss thread just did a quick look at that. We're more or less as stable as these places anyway. More stable than some drought breaking places were.

 

[Blue since 72]

Definitely three camps amongst us at the moment, voss is shit, players are shit or a combo of the two.

My case for more player based than Voss/game plan based revolves around the following:

Coach after coach has not been able to get the playing group anywhere and I believe that has come down to

a) Poor recruiting
b) holding onto injury prone players for too long hoping they will come good
c) expecting players to keep getting better when in reality they hit their ceiling awhile ago and that ceiling is not high enough

Martin: Teased bit has never actually delivered
Cunningham: Class and a real shame but too often injured
Marchbank: See above
Fisher: Reached his ceiling awhile back and tbh is just too slight for the game, particularly in his preferred spot as a mid, can’t play any other position well enough
Gov: Too often injured
Fog: Not good enough
Carroll: Hasn’t come on as quick as he needed to and may never tbh
Philp: If you’re running a business why is he still on the list (yes he’s 21 but has only played 2 games in almost 4 years)
Honey: Can’t find the footy
LoB: just not quite up to it
Dow: Puzzle in that we will probably never know if his last couple of years in the vfl have turned him into
a decent afl player or not. Has attributes we need but are his deficiency’s worse than our current starting mids?
Jsos: Where does he fit

Interestingly 7 of the above could reasonably be expected to play in the forward line but tbh bar Cunningham most of the rest just aren’t good enough often enough.

Fix the personnel in the forward line and I think we would see much better results.

On paper most of those players offer exactly what the team needs but the reality is they haven’t delivered and the club needs to move on them as soon as possible.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

The state of the Carlton fanbase is more concerning to me than the onfield product at the moment - incredible given the state of the latter. Every game we fail to win, the tension manages to reach new heights. It’s understandable because we’ve been suffering for so long and it feels like another false dawn dissolving in our grasp - but it’s really not helping, nor does it have any nuanced understanding of where we are. If we are to truly break this vicious cycle we are trapped in, we need to assess our current state and determine what course of actions will most effectively advance us towards our end goal.

My view has always been that getting flogged is bad, but supporters shirking it - leaving early and abusing players - is the absolute worst. A combination of 20+ years of heartbreaking failures and a media machine hellbent on seeing us burn has whipped us into a frenzy. It’s not good, and it exposes deep scars within the wider Carlton family. Sitting at games and hearing Blues fans vocally turning on players has made me feel ashamed - it’s not everyone and I have no issue with a bit of frustration at a repeated mistake or weak effort, but I struggle to think of a supporter base I’ve encountered who have turned on their own more quickly than these last few weeks.

All of this is from someone who is equally dismayed and frustrated by what we are seeing. However, all this talk of the world burning is greatly exaggerated and I truly believe things are not as bad as they seem.

Why?

1 - the highest levels of the club seem to, for the first time, have some sort of conviction in extricating us from the ‘old Carlton’ mentality. The board standing resolute against the egomaniacal powerbrokers warms the heart. It’s that cultural cancer that has gnawed away at us ever since we stopped being able to throw money at problems and buy our way out. These agitators falsely parade under the guise of passion and love for the club, but to them, it is always about THEM. Brashness. Impatience. Finger pointing. Machinations in the shadows. Good riddance.

Weak clubs bow to pressure as a release valve when the heat is turned up. We have some course corrections still to do, but we must avoid the knee jerk, scorched earth folly of the past. Things take time. Let them play out and don’t make the mistake of snuffing out the flame before it’s had a chance to catch alight. Naturally, you must also have the sense to abandon course if you have enough evidence to be sure it’s not the right one

2 - our on-field performance, looking beyond the 4pts, has more merit than some give credit… the inability to score is infuriating, but we have built a resilient and effective defensive style of play. It’s not enough to win games right now, but it is difficult to do correctly and it must be taught and built over time and constantly reinforced.

We have been competitive at nearly all times of every game, bar a couple of really ugly quarters. Surely others also bear the scars of our teams from 10-15 years ago not being able to defend their way out of a wet paper bag. This side has better constitution than that and I believe defensive grit and discipline is more difficult to instil in a playing group

3 - the failure of our current game plan to play modern attacking footy - corridor, run, punish turnovers and move the ball quickly - is partially a planning issue but very significantly, a personnel issue. The SOS era of list building, aside from nailing the 2015 crop (albeit with 4 first rounders), has left us completely ill-equipped to play in this exciting run-and-gun fashion. Take a look at our draft history - so many years wasted.

I have major issues with how we are coaching right now, but you cannot simply will slick ball movement into existence - you must have the cattle. We have a noted lack of legspeed and foot skills, arguably the two most important traits in this era of AFL. So what is Voss meant to do to mirror Collingwood’s brilliance when his cupboard is completely lacking players with either, let alone both, of those things? I am not saying he’s even the right man to lead us forward, but we have to accept it’s not as simple as clicking your fingers. The contrast between H1 and H2 last night was quite stark for me even still, and we simply have to mirror the more attacking mentality from last night’s second half more regularly from the outset to seize the initiative

We are hurting in a big way with all those wasted drafts and while I am a sucker for optimism, I have been pleased by Austin’s early returns - finding the right sort of players to balance our list and they are clearly coming on quickly enough to be playing early. It’s just not an overnight fix unfortunately

These words will provide little comfort and I am certainly not telling anyone they can’t be pissed off. We have all been through it. Footy has brought us nothing but pain for as long as we can remember, and so many true Blue fans have stuck through thick and thin. But continue to play our role as supporters too - support the team, the organisation - and spurn the saboteurs (whether they claim to be Carlton people or from the outside looking in) who want nothing more than to sow chaos.

To reiterate, I am also not even saying Vossy, or any specific figures, are going to be there when we win our next flag. We have to continually scrutinise and re-assess all aspects of the club. The game plan and list building needs to get a wriggle on. But have faith in the broader system and continue, despite the frustration, to invest in these painful steps towards becoming a proper club again. Our emotions are being intentionally stoked to see red and ignore any of the subtler context at play.

Now, whether you agree or you’d rather sack everyone tomorrow, we are all hurting immensely this year. Take the weekend to forget about this horrid run of results and not let it bring you down any more than it has to. Good luck.

Good post but again the calling out of fans for leaving early is dogwater. You don't know them or what's going on in their lives.

 

[goreds]

How did we manage to go backwards from last year? It’s astonishing. Season is done at the half way point.

There is something very wrong with the culture at Carlton at the moment.

Our club is being managed like a kids soccer team and that culture is being driven from the very top of the club administration. This is elite sport - brutal, ruthless and narcissistic. Winning is what matters above all else.

We seem to be so caught up with how players ‘feel’ that we’re not concentrating on building a resilient performance based culture. These guys are professional footballers - getting dropped for bad form, copping a spray for not putting in or getting called out for making mistakes - it’s all part of the deal. It’s hard, but softening it down is totally counterproductive - you don’t build resilience, self confidence and belief - all crucial elements for success.

Culture takes a long time to sort out, but it flows down from the top. If we want a more performance based culture at CFC the first thing that needs to happen is a change at the top of the administration.

No champion player or wonder coach is going to thrive under the current culture - the president needs to go and the board needs to be expunged of the virtue signalling woke style that has infected the club from the top.

POST OF THE WEEK, YEAR…

I’m involved in a kids soccer team (under 8’s), they can’t wait to play, they can’t wait to learn, they can’t wait try as hard as they can, the result is not important at this age but respecting your team, the opposition, your coach and listen are all none negotiable’s.

The biggest difference is these kids are getting better and do it for enjoyment/love of playing, as for the CFC players it’s the opposite.

I’ll call out the leaders first and foremost. Patrick, no more ‘long weekends’ away, just because it’s your day off. It starts with you, if you don’t agree, that’s fine but please move aside as we need a leader who will set standards and lead from the front.

Give me Toby Greene any day…

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

It goes further than that, this is the test of the maturity and resolve of our club to work through the problems. This is the moment for us to show that we are a serious club. I can tell you one thing, it is not losing games this year which will cause me to disengage, what will do it for me is us sacking another coach without working on fixing things first. Voss needs to see out his contract IMO.

Voss has changed nothing in the past 6 weeks - trivial personnel changes, when a few clearly should have been demoted.

He constantly plays some out of position eg Kennedy (and even Doc at times).

And the game plan remains diabolical - predictable, direly slow and entirely inefficient.

Tell me what he's tweaked in that period?

That's what worries me about Michael Voss.

We expected a hard nut, warrior. We got a nourishment expert in lieu.

 

[Blue1980]

Voss has changed nothing in the past 6 weeks - trivial personnel changes, when a few clearly should have been demoted.

He constantly plays some out of position eg Kennedy (and even Doc at times).

And the game plan remains diabolical - predictable, direly slow and entirely inefficient.

Tell me what he's tweaked in that period?

That's what worries me about Michael Voss.

We expected a hard nut, warrior. We got a nourishment expert in lieu.

The game plan is a proven dud, we have watched the same game on repeat for 2 months.

Either he shows he can adapt and change, or he’s gone at the bye.

Also, there will be many more off season changes, but Voss going will be the start. It will also enable us to get on the front foot looking for new people (unlike with Teague where we waited till the end of the season)

Though even with Teague, we were never this bad for as prolonged a period as we have been now.

 

[52Goals4inGranny]

Not sure if anyones seen the footage of TDK and Harry in the change rooms after the game having a laugh.Now I know they ain’t robots and should be able to express themselves but I wasn’t laughing after the game last night and I’m sure many supporters weren’t as well

Bad look.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

They don't care mate....they only care about themselves. Fair enough it is what it is. Again, we have zero leadership

 

[gab213]

Voss has changed nothing in the past 6 weeks - trivial personnel changes, when a few clearly should have been demoted.

He constantly plays some out of position eg Kennedy (and even Doc at times).

And the game plan remains diabolical - predictable, direly slow and entirely inefficient.

Tell me what he's tweaked in that period?

That's what worries me about Michael Voss.

We expected a hard nut, warrior. We got a nourishment expert in lieu.

There's issues with coaching, issues with the players atm. Deeper issues to do with the list than we see on the park exist too. I'm not defending any one person or group of people but I want the looking for a scapegoat to stop. Fix the problems, sacking the coach doesn't do that, it just pushes the problems onto the next coach as we have seen time and time again. Time to take a different approach as it
hasn't worked.

 

[Blue1980]

There's issues with coaching, issues with the players atm. Deeper issues to do with the list than we see on the park exist too. I'm not vdefending any one person or group of people but I want the looking for a scapegoat to stop. Fix the problems, sacking the coach doesn't do that, it just pushes the problems onto the next coachh as we have seen time and time again. Time to take a different approach as it
hasn't worked.

So just keep Voss cos, other coaches were also bad?

We keep going and striving to improve in all facets until we find the right people, not double down on shit coaches.

As I’ve asked people here, what is your tipping point with Voss? I’m giving him until the Gold Coast game, if we don’t win either of the next 2, I think get rid of him.

What is your tipping point where you’d say we need to cut out losses with Voss?

I also believe the problems are greater than just Voss, but he is certainly a problem.

 

[Beyond Blue]

We expected a hard nut, warrior. We got a nourishment expert in lieu.

If we do replace Voss it should be a question to any candidate: Do you intend using the word “nourishment” during a presser?
Anyone who answers “yes” should immediately be ruled out of the job.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Though even with Teague, we were never this bad for as prolonged a period as we have been now.

The players visibly quit on Teague in the Port game in 2021. They did the same under Bolton in 2019 against GWS and Essendon. I haven’t seen that yet with this group under Voss. That all said we can’t keep losing so something needs to change pretty quickly.

 

[dumb]

So just keep Voss cos, other coaches were also bad?

We keep going and striving to improve in all facets until we find the right people, not double down on s**t coaches.

As I’ve asked people here, what is your tipping point with Voss? I’m giving him until the Gold Coast game, if we don’t win either of the next 2, I think get rid of him.

What is your tipping point where you’d say we need to cut out losses with Voss?

I also believe the problems are greater than just Voss, but he is certainly a problem.

it's an interesting exercise. for myself i don't know what my tipping point is, i probably want to leave it as long as possible before voss gets tipped out since it can be disruptive. which can be bad or good. i'd like to think he could turn it around... doesn't mean he will.
my question is, what's your tipping point for the next coach? what amount of wins do you need in their first season, second season? and what happens if they don't meet those numbers?