Autopsy 2023 Rd 12 No end to misery in sight

[teddy-hopkins]

The state of the Carlton fanbase is more concerning to me than the onfield product at the moment - incredible given the state of the latter. Every game we fail to win, the tension manages to reach new heights. It’s understandable because we’ve been suffering for so long and it feels like another false dawn dissolving in our grasp - but it’s really not helping, nor does it have any nuanced understanding of where we are. If we are to truly break this vicious cycle we are trapped in, we need to assess our current state and determine what course of actions will most effectively advance us towards our end goal.

My view has always been that getting flogged is bad, but supporters shirking it - leaving early and abusing players - is the absolute worst. A combination of 20+ years of heartbreaking failures and a media machine hellbent on seeing us burn has whipped us into a frenzy. It’s not good, and it exposes deep scars within the wider Carlton family. Sitting at games and hearing Blues fans vocally turning on players has made me feel ashamed - it’s not everyone and I have no issue with a bit of frustration at a repeated mistake or weak effort, but I struggle to think of a supporter base I’ve encountered who have turned on their own more quickly than these last few weeks.

All of this is from someone who is equally dismayed and frustrated by what we are seeing. However, all this talk of the world burning is greatly exaggerated and I truly believe things are not as bad as they seem.

Why?

1 - the highest levels of the club seem to, for the first time, have some sort of conviction in extricating us from the ‘old Carlton’ mentality. The board standing resolute against the egomaniacal powerbrokers warms the heart. It’s that cultural cancer that has gnawed away at us ever since we stopped being able to throw money at problems and buy our way out. These agitators falsely parade under the guise of passion and love for the club, but to them, it is always about THEM. Brashness. Impatience. Finger pointing. Machinations in the shadows. Good riddance.

Weak clubs bow to pressure as a release valve when the heat is turned up. We have some course corrections still to do, but we must avoid the knee jerk, scorched earth folly of the past. Things take time. Let them play out and don’t make the mistake of snuffing out the flame before it’s had a chance to catch alight. Naturally, you must also have the sense to abandon course if you have enough evidence to be sure it’s not the right one

2 - our on-field performance, looking beyond the 4pts, has more merit than some give credit… the inability to score is infuriating, but we have built a resilient and effective defensive style of play. It’s not enough to win games right now, but it is difficult to do correctly and it must be taught and built over time and constantly reinforced.

We have been competitive at nearly all times of every game, bar a couple of really ugly quarters. Surely others also bear the scars of our teams from 10-15 years ago not being able to defend their way out of a wet paper bag. This side has better constitution than that and I believe defensive grit and discipline is more difficult to instil in a playing group

3 - the failure of our current game plan to play modern attacking footy - corridor, run, punish turnovers and move the ball quickly - is partially a planning issue but very significantly, a personnel issue. The SOS era of list building, aside from nailing the 2015 crop (albeit with 4 first rounders), has left us completely ill-equipped to play in this exciting run-and-gun fashion. Take a look at our draft history - so many years wasted.

I have major issues with how we are coaching right now, but you cannot simply will slick ball movement into existence - you must have the cattle. We have a noted lack of legspeed and foot skills, arguably the two most important traits in this era of AFL. So what is Voss meant to do to mirror Collingwood’s brilliance when his cupboard is completely lacking players with either, let alone both, of those things? I am not saying he’s even the right man to lead us forward, but we have to accept it’s not as simple as clicking your fingers. The contrast between H1 and H2 last night was quite stark for me even still, and we simply have to mirror the more attacking mentality from last night’s second half more regularly from the outset to seize the initiative

We are hurting in a big way with all those wasted drafts and while I am a sucker for optimism, I have been pleased by Austin’s early returns - finding the right sort of players to balance our list and they are clearly coming on quickly enough to be playing early. It’s just not an overnight fix unfortunately

These words will provide little comfort and I am certainly not telling anyone they can’t be pissed off. We have all been through it. Footy has brought us nothing but pain for as long as we can remember, and so many true Blue fans have stuck through thick and thin. But continue to play our role as supporters too - support the team, the organisation - and spurn the saboteurs (whether they claim to be Carlton people or from the outside looking in) who want nothing more than to sow chaos.

To reiterate, I am also not even saying Vossy, or any specific figures, are going to be there when we win our next flag. We have to continually scrutinise and re-assess all aspects of the club. The game plan and list building needs to get a wriggle on. But have faith in the broader system and continue, despite the frustration, to invest in these painful steps towards becoming a proper club again. Our emotions are being intentionally stoked to see red and ignore any of the subtler context at play.

Now, whether you agree or you’d rather sack everyone tomorrow, we are all hurting immensely this year. Take the weekend to forget about this horrid run of results and not let it bring you down any more than it has to. Good luck.

It's never fun to listen to our supporters get frustrated with our players but who are you to tell other supporters how to act? They wait patiently through the absolute horror years of an 8 year bottom out rebuild and then watch a team play well below where they were at last year - with an arguably healthier list.

And you're sitting there quietly in judgement on our supporters getting frustrated.

Patronising / holier than thou to say the least.

 

[52Goals4inGranny]

Sadly for Voss, it’s become unequivocal. He can’t coach, we have a sample across 2 teams and 2 decades. They guy isn’t up to it.

Why the hell did we go with Vossy? People put the acid on regarding a process and we folded and hired Vossy.

I’m fuming

 

[AndyLucimitis]

They don't care mate....they only care about themselves. Fair enough it is what it is. Again, we have zero leadership

That’s rubbish. They could also put on the fabricated despair that players do as well after a loss knowing the cameras are on them but guarantee they are out at a pub or club a couple of hours later having a laugh.

All that means nothing as to how committed you are. You can say what you like about Harry but I reckon he’s hurting as much as anyone - and having to do it in public.


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[teddy-hopkins]

it's an interesting exercise. for myself i don't know what my tipping point is, i probably want to leave it as long as possible before voss gets tipped out since it can be disruptive. which can be bad or good. i'd like to think he could turn it around... doesn't mean he will.
my question is, what's your tipping point for the next coach? what amount of wins do you need in their first season, second season? and what happens if they don't meet those numbers?

Voss is coaching his way out of the job right now. 3 winnable games coming up. If we don't win at least 2 he'll already be under immense pressure but he'll still see out the season in my view.

It's on him. Turn this around or force the club to sack you. He will live and die by the results.

Having a triple premiership coach unemployed right now won't help diminish the pressure.

 

[RiCHii]

My take from the game:

Walsh - Has been pretty ordinary since returning. I understand he is coming off a big injury, but he seems to have lost a touch of pace, finds himself getting caught a lot more. Could be a lack of movement/options but do find him running around at times with no direction and ending up getting caught.

Our forward line is dysfunctional at the moment, little to no pressure coming our fwd 50. No crumbers when our big men compete which makes the defensive exit even easier.

• Motlop albeit a young fella may need a spell in the 2's. Looks to avoid contact at all costs.
• Owies unsighted.
• Durdin going to be our for some time.

Midfield looked good last night and seemed to work a lot better with TDK as our #1 ruckman. I think he did really well competing with both Gawn and Grundy.

LOB can pack his bags. I think we've all seen enough.

It's about damn time we saw Dow given an opportunity. Saw a stat that he only had 35% game time. Picked up 9 and didn't look out of place. I think he needs to stay in.

Backline held up. Kemp needs to stay in. His disposal at times sucks, but he's young and I reckon it can be cleaned up.

It wasn't the prettiest game to watch that's for sure. Thank god for Whiskey.

 

[Ang39]

How did we manage to go backwards from last year? It’s astonishing. Season is done at the half way point.

There is something very wrong with the culture at Carlton at the moment.

Our club is being managed like a kids soccer team and that culture is being driven from the very top of the club administration. This is elite sport - brutal, ruthless and narcissistic. Winning is what matters above all else.

We seem to be so caught up with how players ‘feel’ that we’re not concentrating on building a resilient performance based culture. These guys are professional footballers - getting dropped for bad form, copping a spray for not putting in or getting called out for making mistakes - it’s all part of the deal. It’s hard, but softening it down is totally counterproductive - you don’t build resilience, self confidence and belief - all crucial elements for success.

Culture takes a long time to sort out, but it flows down from the top. If we want a more performance based culture at CFC the first thing that needs to happen is a change at the top of the administration.

No champion player or wonder coach is going to thrive under the current culture - the president needs to go and the board needs to be expunged of the virtue signalling woke style that has infected the club from the top.

Brilliantly summed up.

 

[Blue By Blood]

One thing I’ve noted is we seem to try to plug game system flaws like that whack-a-mole game at a gaming arcade. An issue comes up and we make it the sole focus at training. Then a new issue pops up and we repeat. We never get on the front foot and address the game plan as a whole. You really can’t change it significantly mid season other than releasing the shackles and having some fun out there for the second half of the season and seeing what happens. But it’s absolute amateur hour to be having an ‘issue of the week’.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Then you review the leadership structure at the end of the year, not trade them out completely. Some people are natural leaders, some become burdened by the responsibility. It's a bit of a drastic measure to take.
We need to get better than just chopping people out rather than addressing where the weaknesses lie and do something to improve things.

Trading our "leaders" depends on the benefits of the deal to the Carlton football club. Structure of leadership makes liittle difference. Leaders are largely born. Right now Charlie Curnow is the only player who can spark the group onfield. Cripps has had 5 years as captain. He needs to develop his fwd craft and reduce his midfield time to 40%. 2 of the last 3 seasons, he has appeared to struggle. We should investigate recruiting a player from a successful club to captain or co-captain for a year.

 

[Blue1980]

The players visibly quit on Teague in the Port game in 2021. They did the same under Bolton in 2019 against GWS and Essendon. I haven’t seen that yet with this group under Voss. That all said we can’t keep losing so something needs to change pretty quickly.

Maybe they are quiet quitting?

As I’ve said another 2 losses in a row, I think his position becomes untenable

 

[Blue1980]

it's an interesting exercise. for myself i don't know what my tipping point is, i probably want to leave it as long as possible before voss gets tipped out since it can be disruptive. which can be bad or good. i'd like to think he could turn it around... doesn't mean he will.
my question is, what's your tipping point for the next coach? what amount of wins do you need in their first season, second season? and what happens if they don't meet those numbers?

Good questions, as every case and scenario is different. Id have to wait and see what we did in the off season to see what my expectations would be, but it would be we are at least a mid range challenging for finals team (assuming no cataclysmic injury crisis), I mean would winning 8-10 games be that too high a bar? Surely not. We are currently looking at bottom 4.

In Voss’s defence, if we didn’t begin last year 8-2 and were just prolonged the same as we have been since halfway through last year (though now even worse) he’d probably have a bit more leeway as we’d just accept he doesn’t have the cattle, but we have seen these players perform, so we know we are capable of more.

So I guess it depends where we see the side at, so we see the beginning of last year as a complete aberration? Have they just got it totally wrong with game style and fitness over the off season, need to clear out some deadwood and we will come back better next year with Voss?

 

[azlou]

Please tell me we have a first and second round pick this year we didn’t trade our second did we?

 

[Keyza]

Please tell me we have a first and second round pick this year we didn’t trade our second did we?

I am pretty sure we have traded our 2nd and 3rd round picks for this year. One of the picks was for Acres.

 

[stochastic]

Unfortunately whilst we have a 6/5 Marvel/MCG split, the misery will not end.

We have seen Essendon suffer the same fate and if we were serious about wanting success we would be push for a minimum of 9 games at one ground. Having one home ground where you can hone your own game style is something we do not have and have seen the benefit it gives side like the crows, who have a worst list than us and cannot win away, however can bank 10-11 wins at the Adelaide oval.

 

[Blue1980]

Unfortunately whilst we have a 6/5 Marvel/MCG split, the misery will not end.

We have seen Essendon suffer the same fate and if we were serious about wanting success we would be push for a minimum of 9 games at one ground. Having one home ground where you can hone your own game style is something we do not have and have seen the benefit it gives side like the crows, who have a worst list than us and cannot win away, however can bank 10-11 wins at the Adelaide oval.

Bad excuse. We are bad because we are bad, not due to ground differences.

MCG 171 X 146
Marvel 169.5 X 140

 

[stochastic]

Bad excuse. We are bad because we are bad, not due to ground differences.

MCG 171 X 146
Marvel 169.5 X 140

Why have you used MCGs field dimensions and Marvels fence to fence Dimensions

MCG: 171 x 146
Marvel: 159.5 x 128.8

 

[azlou]

I am pretty sure we have traded our 2nd and 3rd round picks for this year. One of the picks was for Acres.

Dam that sucks that 2nd looks to be a good pick

 

[Blue1980]

Why have you used MCGs field dimensions and Marvels fence to fence Dimensions

MCG: 171 x 146
Marvel: 159.5 x 128.8

My mistake, still point still stands we can’t be using it as an excuse

 

[btdg]

Dam that sucks that 2nd looks to be a good pick

Collingwood has our second round pick.

Remember 12 months ago when we were top 4, Collingwood were 14th and had GWS had their first pick...

Somehow in the space of 12 months it now seems realistic that we will finish 15th, Collingwood will win the flag and we will then hand them pick 22 as a cherry on top

 

[azlou]

All that talk of trading future firsts doesn’t seem like a crash hot idea now

 

[jpfalvo]

The forward line is an abomination so true.

You can only hope that later this year we have Martin, Cuners and Kemp in there to give us some extra scoring power.

And here lies the problem.

Clinging to hope that Martin and Cunningham will save us. These guys shouldnt be on the list. Time to move on...

Kemp can play. No faith Voss will shift him or forward or even possibly drop him to the 2s as the scapegoat.

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[__Bobcat__]

Seriously does anyone have any idea how the hell we get out of this hot mess we are in again?

Start dropping our big name players into the 2's.
Docherty n Cripps first.

 

[thebluenewdeal]

5/6 when Bolton came in. 6/5 when Teague took over and 8/3 when vossy came in. Then the group get challenged to be better at other facets of the game and fall away because they are either incapable or they just can’t be stuffed.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

We will win the next 3 games against Bombers, Suns & Hawks and go into the bye 7-7-1 in 8th spot and everyone will wonder what the fuss was..

 

[jpfalvo]

Sadly for Voss, it’s become unequivocal. He can’t coach, we have a sample across 2 teams and 2 decades. They guy isn’t up to it.

Why the hell did we go with Vossy? People put the acid on regarding a process and we folded and hired Vossy.

I’m fuming

If you cast your mind back to 2021. The media was pushing the feel good give Ratten and Voss a go narrative.

Harshly done by, plied their time, give them a go and they will succeed.

Footy classified did segments on this for weeks and weeks. I think they even talked of the AFL wanting to see coaches back in the system

Our coaching appointment strategy was

Get Clarko.

Get Lyon.

Ok Voss it is...

Kingsley not marketable and not a coach without training wheels.

We held onto Teague for far too long.
Then had senior players in r22 begging the club to keep Teague. It was a messy exit.

Given the parameters we set for new coach hire was, must have previous experience.

It left Voss.

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[Ald Gardiner]

And here lies the problem.

Clinging to hope that Martin and Cunningham will save us. These guys shouldnt be on the list. Time to move on...

Kemp can play. No faith Voss will shift him or forward or even possibly drop him to the 2s as the scapegoat.

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“Extra scoring power” was a deliberately guarded, conservative comment that doesn’t equate to “saving” us.

Of course both are problematic injured players but if they can get out on the paddock you sure as hell use them. Next year who knows where they’ll be, time will tell