List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[L_W_P]

Got my worries about forking out a big contract and draft capital for TDK

He's never looked a threat forward so it likely means Marshall moves forward again where he is fairly average

See how the season plays out I guess but it sounds like we are keen

Loved the story about Caminiti, that fell into our laps.

I agree that TDKs best work looks to be in the ruck BUT he's never really been settled as a forward option.

Lots of players look good in the ruck because it gets them up around the ball. Rob Walls was famous for wanting to chuck every bloke over 190cm for "a run in the ruck" to get them in the play.

I think TDK at FF and taking the boundary throw ins ALA Hawkins, with King using his athletic ability up the ground, would be perfectly fine for the list we have going.

Throw in Membrey/Sharman/Hayes as the 3rd tall and we are in a decent spot.

 

[bird_man]

TDK looks like if he got time as a KP target, that he'd step up. Like Luke Jackson you're kind of projecting what he might end up like. He's probably a better ruckman and better natural forward than Marshall but Marshall has that extra midfielder factor. He'll win his own clearances and can move the ball better than most his size.

Jackson is 3 years younger than TDK though and has already shown more.

He’s 24 this year so if he’s going to actually become a star in any area he would want to start showing a bit.

I wouldn’t say he’s either a better ruckman or forward than Marshall?

 

[jh38]

TDK looks like if he got time as a KP target, that he'd step up. Like Luke Jackson you're kind of projecting what he might end up like. He's probably a better ruckman and better natural forward than Marshall but Marshall has that extra midfielder factor. He'll win his own clearances and can move the ball better than most his size.

TDK takes a big mark once every few weeks and doesn't do much else. Sure he's mobile but he has little impact around the ground and he doesn't compete that well in the ruck either. No point forking out big money and big picks for a 24 year old who hasn't shown much at the top level.

 

[shlong]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/cap-space-jay-clark-looks-at-st-kildas-list-stephen-silvagnis-options-and-the-big-calls-facing-the-club/news-story/367a89aef68d1ef5e7f780711803b4c9?amp

 

[puppy_dog7]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/cap-space-jay-clark-looks-at-st-kildas-list-stephen-silvagnis-options-and-the-big-calls-facing-the-club/news-story/367a89aef68d1ef5e7f780711803b4c9?amp

Can anyone post this

 

[g_TRAIN]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/cap-space-jay-clark-looks-at-st-kildas-list-stephen-silvagnis-options-and-the-big-calls-facing-the-club/news-story/367a89aef68d1ef5e7f780711803b4c9?amp

Paywall

 

[shlong]

Can anyone post this

Some list managers reach for the small scissors at season’s end.
Others opt for the full-length hedge trimmers.
New St Kilda list boss Stephen Silvagni will be thinking about the chainsaw.
When the Saints made the shock decision to punt coach Brett Ratten last year, there was a not-so-subtle acknowledgment that the club’s list was stuck in no-man’s land.
The salary cap was full-to-the-brim and there was nowhere near enough top-end or promising young developing talent to challenge for a top-four berth.
So, after winning only three of their last 11 games last year, the Saints’ powerbrokers went to the freezer, reached for the tub of Neapolitan ice cream and realised there was only strawberry flavour left.
That is not to say there aren’t a lot of capable players at Moorabbin. There are.
The thing about the Saints’ list is that more than 30-odd players could play next week and be fine.
But that is the approach which has elevated the club from 16th in 2018 to only 10th under Ratten in 2022.
They won one final in that time (over Western Bulldogs in 2020 despite having two less scoring shots than the Dogs), before it dawned on the club last season.
It has a mediocre list.
The very deliberate top-up strategy had not worked.

Stephen Silvagni is facing some huge decisions at St Kilda. Picture: AAP Images
President Andrew Bassat said it himself in the club’s review findings when he declared St Kilda was guilty of “focusing impatiently on short-term outputs”.
Now, the question is not whether St Kilda needs to make changes.
The question is how hard do they go?
Does Silvagni bust out the chainsaw or not in six months’ time?
One of the club’s most respected figures, Nick Riewoldt, was forthright last year after participating in the club review, saying he would be “cutting and cutting pretty hard.”
“When you look at the young talent who are gonna form the elite core of this club for the next five to 10 years, there isn’t much there,” Riewoldt said.
Bassat said the club had to commit to a longer-term vision under Lyon “even if this does make the short-term more difficult for us”.
“We do need to improve our stock of top-end talent,” Bassat said.
Complicating matters, it is a considerably tough time to rebuild when the top-four teams have all got better entering 2023, leaving a decent-sized gap between the two ends of the ladder.
Geelong, Brisbane, Melbourne, Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Carlton all improved, at least on paper.
But the problems are two-fold for St Kilda.
Not only is there is a distinct lack of top-end talent, but the salary cap is also fuller than what it should be for a team which missed finals last year and is now in an ‘exploration phase’ under Lyon.


Ross Lyon is set to bring a hard edge to St Kilda. Picture: Getty Images
There are too many mid-tier players on above average money.
When they brought in wave after wave of mature-age players in recent years the Saints had to overpay in some cases, as the club is yet to establish itself as a true destination club for the top-end talent.
And perhaps the club thought it was closer to a premiership than reality would suggest?
The Saints have always been goers under Ratten, but where is the class? The firepower? The difference-makers?
The previous list management strategy “to drive greater competitiveness through trades” lifted the club out of the bottom-four in 2018, but has now officially made way for an “updated plan” amid sweeping personnel change through the football department.
Unless Lyon can work some sort of miracle on the field, the list will need a considerable recalibration at the end of the year to re-align the cap, inject some more A-Graders and build on a new core to help break the longest premiership drought in the game.
But that is four or five years away.

Loading embed...
CRUNCH YEAR
That is why Silvagni and Lyon will take the season to make key decisions on which players not only take the club forward on the field at a justifiable price, but also who can help drive standards off the field.
Over the next six months in the club’s 150th season, some tough calls will have to be made by Silvagni. Who can take this success-starved club forward?
There are some quality pieces to work with, and Marcus Windhager, Mitch Owens, Mattaes Phillipou, Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera and Max King represent the next generation of Saints’ stars to help take the baton from Jack Billings, Seb Ross, Jimmy Webster, Daniel McKenzie and Co.
Billings, who was taken pick three ahead of Marcus Bontempelli in 2013, is entering his 10th season and has likely played his best football, finishing fourth (2019) and fifth (2017) in the best and fairest.
The Saints delisted number one pick Paddy McCartin amid his concussion issues after just 35 games, but he has since established himself as an All-Australian-calibre defender as part of a remarkable career revival at Sydney Swans.
Hard-nut utility Hunter Clark can deliver on his potential, linebreaker Wanganeen-Milera is the best kick at the club, and rookie picks Rowan Marshall and Jack Sinclair are crucial cornerstones.
Lyon will love Brad Crouch’s unwavering effort in the clinches and Jack Higgins and Dan Butler will have big roles to play cranking up the pressure in a small forward line early in 2023.
The captain Jack Steele is a dual All-Australian, and the heartbeat of the team. Jade Gresham provides power and polish in the engine room, and is always threatening forward, but St Kilda may have to fight hard to keep him as a free agent.


Paddy McCartin didn’t work out for the Saints. Picture: AAP Images
If Kysaiah Pickett shocks Melbourne with a trade request, (and the Demons aren’t expecting one) Gresham would be an ideal replacement target for the Dees.
So, there are some building blocks at Moorabbin, and Phillipou was open with recruiters last year about how he wants to become the best player in the game.
Essendon thought long and hard about taking him at pick five over Elijah Tsatas.
It will be a compelling journey, and Phillipou can produce some spine-tingling footy busting through packs midfield and forward.
But beyond the 2021-2022 draft hauls, there is a big black hole.
From 2018-20, King is the one hit and Jack Bytel has shown promise despite injury issues.
But to be blunt, St Kilda has paid a price for giving up on the draft as a club over that period.
It is unfair to pin that just on previous list boss James Gallagher, but rather everyone at the club who makes decisions in helping set the Saints’ direction.
Ultimately, the trajectory flat lined when Ratten was sacked with two years left on his contract after 11 wins in his final season in charge.
The Saints had made a mistake extending his contract in the first place, but the Saints identified in the review they needed a different style of leadership from its new coach. An uncompromising edge.
In 2017, they took hard nut Clark (pick seven) and rebounding defender Nick Coffield (eight) and the club is hopeful they can develop into top-line playmakers.
But the Saints considered trading Clark last year and Coffield is coming off a knee reconstruction. It is a big year for duo. A big year for a lot of players.
In 2018, the recycling trucks fired up as the club picked up Matthew Parker, Nick Hind, Hannebery, Robbie Young, Dean Kent, Ryan Abbott, Brad Hill, Howard, Ryder, Butler, Zak Jones, Tom Highmore, James Frawley, Shaun McKernan, Crouch and Higgins.
Ryder was excellent and among the most impactful ruckmen in the game at the Saints and Mason Wood has been a nice find, for free.
But nine of the 17 are gone and Hannebery and Hill cost the club a packet. North fought hard for Howard at the time, driving up his price.
It is unclear whether Jones is still in the Saints’ best 22.


Dan Hannebery struggled with fitness while at the Saints. Picture: Getty Images
TICK, TOCK
Chris Toce is not a household name, but the Saints’ recruiting manager has one of the biggest jobs in footy making sure the club nails its picks in the next few drafts.
That is how St Kilda can replenish the list and begin the upward climb, but it will require patience over the next few years.
The club will wonder which of its players who aren’t in its future plans will have any trade currency, and Silvagni will be ears open to any attractive offers at season’s end to help build their draft hand.
Is that Clark, Coffield, Billings or Ross?
Perhaps, North Melbourne is the best comparison when it cut 11 players in one swoop after winning only three games in 2020.
North Melbourne had the chance in 2018 to accelerate the rebuild but instead they went for a top-up method, too, which also backfired, adding Dom Tyson, Jared Polec and Jasper Pittard.
Brad Scott finished up as coach the following year.
At St Kilda in 2019, the club gave up picks 12 and 18 for Howard, Ryder and pick 10 in return. But 10 went to Fremantle for Brad Hill.
It means the Saints missed out on their chance to take young stars such as Pickett (pick 12), Will Day (13), Cody Weightman (15), Mitch Georgiades (18) and Sam De Koning (19), but it is easy in hindsight.
Higgins and Hannebery (who played 18 games in four years) effectively cost second-rounders.

The Saints will listen to any offers for Jack Billings. Picture: Getty Images
THIS DRAFT
St Kilda will start the season without an established key forward in Round 1, after taking 19-year-old Anthony Caminiti under the supplemental selection period rules.
The Saints are among the long line of clubs assessing Carlton key forward-ruck Tom De Koning.
The gun tall is out of contract but he is not a free agent, meaning the Saints will have to give up something in a trade to land him, unless there is a Jack Martin-style pre-season draft move in mind.
Silvagni drafted De Koning to Carlton at pick 30 in 2017, but would be reluctant to give up an early single-figure pick for De Koning if the Saints finished in the bottom-four.
Gold Coast prodigy Ben King has long been on Graeme Allan’s wish-list, but the Suns would want the world in return if he ever requested a trade.
Allan remains at the club as strategy consultant. He is Silvagni’s right-hand man.
But for now, King says he is happy up north.
Preferably, the Saints will want to keep their early picks in this year and next year’s draft to build-out that nucleus of younger talent.
In 2016-17, Lyon’s rebuilding Dockers took Griffin Logue (pick eight), Sean Darcy (38), Brennan Cox (41) and Luke Ryan (66), followed by Andrew Brayshaw (two) and Adam Cerra (five), who was turned into key forward Jye Amiss (pick eight) when he moved to Carlton.
Two strong drafts helped turn the Dockers’ fortunes around.
But this is where free agency can also help the Saints attract some more top-liners such as GWS Giants’ tall Harry Himmelberg, without giving up a draft pick in a trade. Can he become star of the game?
The Saints have enough role players.
What they need as part of this fresh start under Lyon is more A-Graders.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Should be a 24 hour ban for posting this clowns mug no matter the context .

Speak to the mods little fella, maybe they can carve you a safe space

 

[stavro#4]

Nice to see the club just being on the front foot.

I hated the secret whisper shit that has been us over the last decade - generally means we were too scared to be forthright about who we wanted in case we missed out.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

How is our cap at bursting point when we were throwing $850k+ at DeGoey?... and are apparently now happy to chuck the kitchen sink at TDK?

FMD, some of these journos are total dipsh1ts.

 

[stavro#4]

How is our cap at bursting point when we were throwing $850k+ at DeGoey?... and are apparently now happy to chuck the kitchen sink at TDK?

FMD, some of these journos are total dipsh1ts.

Correct.

Also - there are a number out of contract for us who if we re-sign will be in lower deals going forward.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Some list managers reach for the small scissors at season’s end.
Others opt for the full-length hedge trimmers.
New St Kilda list boss Stephen Silvagni will be thinking about the chainsaw.
When the Saints made the shock decision to punt coach Brett Ratten last year, there was a not-so-subtle acknowledgment that the club’s list was stuck in no-man’s land.
The salary cap was full-to-the-brim and there was nowhere near enough top-end or promising young developing talent to challenge for a top-four berth.
So, after winning only three of their last 11 games last year, the Saints’ powerbrokers went to the freezer, reached for the tub of Neapolitan ice cream and realised there was only strawberry flavour left.
That is not to say there aren’t a lot of capable players at Moorabbin. There are.
The thing about the Saints’ list is that more than 30-odd players could play next week and be fine.
But that is the approach which has elevated the club from 16th in 2018 to only 10th under Ratten in 2022.
They won one final in that time (over Western Bulldogs in 2020 despite having two less scoring shots than the Dogs), before it dawned on the club last season.
It has a mediocre list.
The very deliberate top-up strategy had not worked.

Stephen Silvagni is facing some huge decisions at St Kilda. Picture: AAP Images
President Andrew Bassat said it himself in the club’s review findings when he declared St Kilda was guilty of “focusing impatiently on short-term outputs”.
Now, the question is not whether St Kilda needs to make changes.
The question is how hard do they go?
Does Silvagni bust out the chainsaw or not in six months’ time?
One of the club’s most respected figures, Nick Riewoldt, was forthright last year after participating in the club review, saying he would be “cutting and cutting pretty hard.”
“When you look at the young talent who are gonna form the elite core of this club for the next five to 10 years, there isn’t much there,” Riewoldt said.
Bassat said the club had to commit to a longer-term vision under Lyon “even if this does make the short-term more difficult for us”.
“We do need to improve our stock of top-end talent,” Bassat said.
Complicating matters, it is a considerably tough time to rebuild when the top-four teams have all got better entering 2023, leaving a decent-sized gap between the two ends of the ladder.
Geelong, Brisbane, Melbourne, Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Carlton all improved, at least on paper.
But the problems are two-fold for St Kilda.
Not only is there is a distinct lack of top-end talent, but the salary cap is also fuller than what it should be for a team which missed finals last year and is now in an ‘exploration phase’ under Lyon.


Ross Lyon is set to bring a hard edge to St Kilda. Picture: Getty Images
There are too many mid-tier players on above average money.
When they brought in wave after wave of mature-age players in recent years the Saints had to overpay in some cases, as the club is yet to establish itself as a true destination club for the top-end talent.
And perhaps the club thought it was closer to a premiership than reality would suggest?
The Saints have always been goers under Ratten, but where is the class? The firepower? The difference-makers?
The previous list management strategy “to drive greater competitiveness through trades” lifted the club out of the bottom-four in 2018, but has now officially made way for an “updated plan” amid sweeping personnel change through the football department.
Unless Lyon can work some sort of miracle on the field, the list will need a considerable recalibration at the end of the year to re-align the cap, inject some more A-Graders and build on a new core to help break the longest premiership drought in the game.
But that is four or five years away.

Loading embed...
CRUNCH YEAR
That is why Silvagni and Lyon will take the season to make key decisions on which players not only take the club forward on the field at a justifiable price, but also who can help drive standards off the field.
Over the next six months in the club’s 150th season, some tough calls will have to be made by Silvagni. Who can take this success-starved club forward?
There are some quality pieces to work with, and Marcus Windhager, Mitch Owens, Mattaes Phillipou, Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera and Max King represent the next generation of Saints’ stars to help take the baton from Jack Billings, Seb Ross, Jimmy Webster, Daniel McKenzie and Co.
Billings, who was taken pick three ahead of Marcus Bontempelli in 2013, is entering his 10th season and has likely played his best football, finishing fourth (2019) and fifth (2017) in the best and fairest.
The Saints delisted number one pick Paddy McCartin amid his concussion issues after just 35 games, but he has since established himself as an All-Australian-calibre defender as part of a remarkable career revival at Sydney Swans.
Hard-nut utility Hunter Clark can deliver on his potential, linebreaker Wanganeen-Milera is the best kick at the club, and rookie picks Rowan Marshall and Jack Sinclair are crucial cornerstones.
Lyon will love Brad Crouch’s unwavering effort in the clinches and Jack Higgins and Dan Butler will have big roles to play cranking up the pressure in a small forward line early in 2023.
The captain Jack Steele is a dual All-Australian, and the heartbeat of the team. Jade Gresham provides power and polish in the engine room, and is always threatening forward, but St Kilda may have to fight hard to keep him as a free agent.


Paddy McCartin didn’t work out for the Saints. Picture: AAP Images
If Kysaiah Pickett shocks Melbourne with a trade request, (and the Demons aren’t expecting one) Gresham would be an ideal replacement target for the Dees.
So, there are some building blocks at Moorabbin, and Phillipou was open with recruiters last year about how he wants to become the best player in the game.
Essendon thought long and hard about taking him at pick five over Elijah Tsatas.
It will be a compelling journey, and Phillipou can produce some spine-tingling footy busting through packs midfield and forward.
But beyond the 2021-2022 draft hauls, there is a big black hole.
From 2018-20, King is the one hit and Jack Bytel has shown promise despite injury issues.
But to be blunt, St Kilda has paid a price for giving up on the draft as a club over that period.
It is unfair to pin that just on previous list boss James Gallagher, but rather everyone at the club who makes decisions in helping set the Saints’ direction.
Ultimately, the trajectory flat lined when Ratten was sacked with two years left on his contract after 11 wins in his final season in charge.
The Saints had made a mistake extending his contract in the first place, but the Saints identified in the review they needed a different style of leadership from its new coach. An uncompromising edge.
In 2017, they took hard nut Clark (pick seven) and rebounding defender Nick Coffield (eight) and the club is hopeful they can develop into top-line playmakers.
But the Saints considered trading Clark last year and Coffield is coming off a knee reconstruction. It is a big year for duo. A big year for a lot of players.
In 2018, the recycling trucks fired up as the club picked up Matthew Parker, Nick Hind, Hannebery, Robbie Young, Dean Kent, Ryan Abbott, Brad Hill, Howard, Ryder, Butler, Zak Jones, Tom Highmore, James Frawley, Shaun McKernan, Crouch and Higgins.
Ryder was excellent and among the most impactful ruckmen in the game at the Saints and Mason Wood has been a nice find, for free.
But nine of the 17 are gone and Hannebery and Hill cost the club a packet. North fought hard for Howard at the time, driving up his price.
It is unclear whether Jones is still in the Saints’ best 22.


Dan Hannebery struggled with fitness while at the Saints. Picture: Getty Images
TICK, TOCK
Chris Toce is not a household name, but the Saints’ recruiting manager has one of the biggest jobs in footy making sure the club nails its picks in the next few drafts.
That is how St Kilda can replenish the list and begin the upward climb, but it will require patience over the next few years.
The club will wonder which of its players who aren’t in its future plans will have any trade currency, and Silvagni will be ears open to any attractive offers at season’s end to help build their draft hand.
Is that Clark, Coffield, Billings or Ross?
Perhaps, North Melbourne is the best comparison when it cut 11 players in one swoop after winning only three games in 2020.
North Melbourne had the chance in 2018 to accelerate the rebuild but instead they went for a top-up method, too, which also backfired, adding Dom Tyson, Jared Polec and Jasper Pittard.
Brad Scott finished up as coach the following year.
At St Kilda in 2019, the club gave up picks 12 and 18 for Howard, Ryder and pick 10 in return. But 10 went to Fremantle for Brad Hill.
It means the Saints missed out on their chance to take young stars such as Pickett (pick 12), Will Day (13), Cody Weightman (15), Mitch Georgiades (18) and Sam De Koning (19), but it is easy in hindsight.
Higgins and Hannebery (who played 18 games in four years) effectively cost second-rounders.

The Saints will listen to any offers for Jack Billings. Picture: Getty Images
THIS DRAFT
St Kilda will start the season without an established key forward in Round 1, after taking 19-year-old Anthony Caminiti under the supplemental selection period rules.
The Saints are among the long line of clubs assessing Carlton key forward-ruck Tom De Koning.
The gun tall is out of contract but he is not a free agent, meaning the Saints will have to give up something in a trade to land him, unless there is a Jack Martin-style pre-season draft move in mind.
Silvagni drafted De Koning to Carlton at pick 30 in 2017, but would be reluctant to give up an early single-figure pick for De Koning if the Saints finished in the bottom-four.
Gold Coast prodigy Ben King has long been on Graeme Allan’s wish-list, but the Suns would want the world in return if he ever requested a trade.
Allan remains at the club as strategy consultant. He is Silvagni’s right-hand man.
But for now, King says he is happy up north.
Preferably, the Saints will want to keep their early picks in this year and next year’s draft to build-out that nucleus of younger talent.
In 2016-17, Lyon’s rebuilding Dockers took Griffin Logue (pick eight), Sean Darcy (38), Brennan Cox (41) and Luke Ryan (66), followed by Andrew Brayshaw (two) and Adam Cerra (five), who was turned into key forward Jye Amiss (pick eight) when he moved to Carlton.
Two strong drafts helped turn the Dockers’ fortunes around.
But this is where free agency can also help the Saints attract some more top-liners such as GWS Giants’ tall Harry Himmelberg, without giving up a draft pick in a trade. Can he become star of the game?
The Saints have enough role players.
What they need as part of this fresh start under Lyon is more A-Graders.

Jeez I wish I was an AFL journalist. Just disregard everything that doesn't suit your narrative, write a pile of crap and get paid for it!!!

Jay - you cannot dismiss our "drafting strategy" simply by not mentioning those players who we have drafted and are successful and by neglecting to mention players we have got through trading draft picks.

" From 2018-20, King is the one hit and Jack Bytel has shown promise despite injury issues. But to be blunt, St Kilda has paid a price for giving up on the draft as a club over that period."

So who else did we get in that period? Well lets add starting 22 types like Callum Wilkie, Dan Butler, Brad Hill, Dougal Howard, Zac Jones, Ryan Byrnes, Jack Higgins, Brad Crouch, Mason Wood to the list and that's without considering the likes of Connolly, Max Heath, Sharman, Highmore, Allison.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I agree that TDKs best work looks to be in the ruck BUT he's never really been settled as a forward option.

Lots of players look good in the ruck because it gets them up around the ball. Rob Walls was famous for wanting to chuck every bloke over 190cm for "a run in the ruck" to get them in the play.

I think TDK at FF and taking the boundary throw ins ALA Hawkins, with King using his athletic ability up the ground, would be perfectly fine for the list we have going.

Throw in Membrey/Sharman/Hayes as the 3rd tall and we are in a decent spot.

I believe elite midfielders are a much more pressing need than a player like TDK. If we are to spend early trade picks on a player, use them on a sound proven young elite midfielder.

For me TDK is completely the wrong way to go trade wise! He is a good player but not worth it would cost us in $$$ or trade. He is another like Marshall who plays his best footy in the ruck and not as a forward, what's the point in having two very similiar players. On top of what we would have to pay him and what Carlton would want trade wise would be outrageous. I think we would be much better served targetting players who are tall forwards firstly, but competent ruckman. Players like Joel Armatey, Hayden McLean, Elliott Himmilberg or Ratogulea or similiar.

The above are all players who have talent but are behind others and we wouldnt have to give up as much trade wise. Plus what we have seen from Max Heath over the preseason indicates that he is not that far away and has shown in the VFL that he is handy when playing forward. I hope they keep Campbell on the list for another year or two as a backup and target another ruckman via the draft or in a cheap trade.

If the media story is correct Sydney are keen on TDK also, if that is the case we would get one or both Amartey and McLean cheaply. Let them pay the big $$$ for him as now is not the time to go chips all in on a could be ruckman/forward.

 

[stavro#4]

Jeez I wish I was an AFL journalist. Just disregard everything that doesn't suit your narrative, write a pile of crap and get paid for it!!!

Jay - you cannot dismiss our "drafting strategy" simply by not mentioning those players who we have drafted and are successful and by neglecting to mention players we have got through trading draft picks.

" From 2018-20, King is the one hit and Jack Bytel has shown promise despite injury issues. But to be blunt, St Kilda has paid a price for giving up on the draft as a club over that period."

So who else did we get in that period? Well lets add starting 22 types like Callum Wilkie, Dan Butler, Brad Hill, Dougal Howard, Zac Jones, Ryan Byrnes, Jack Higgins, Brad Crouch, Mason Wood to the list and that's without considering the likes of Connolly, Max Heath, Sharman, Highmore, Allison.

He was referring to the draft.

So you can claim Wilkie.

Sharman & Heath was 2021 mid season draft.

Wouldn’t be claiming any of the others as hits.

 

[stavro#4]

I believe elite midfielders are a much more pressing need than a player like TDK. If we are to spend early trade picks on a player, use them on a sound proven young elite midfielder.

For me TDK is completely the wrong way to go trade wise! He is a good player but not worth it would cost us in $$$ or trade. He is another like Marshall who plays his best footy in the ruck and not as a forward, what's the point in having two very similiar players. On top of what we would have to pay him and what Carlton would want trade wise would be outrageous. I think we would be much better served targetting players who are tall forwards firstly, but competent ruckman. Players like Joel Armatey, Hayden McLean, Elliott Himmilberg or Ratogulea or similiar.

The above are all players who have talent but are behind others and we wouldnt have to give up as much trade wise. Plus what we have seen from Max Heath over the preseason indicates that he is not that far away and has shown in the VFL that he is handy when playing forward. I hope they keep Campbell on the list for another year or two as a backup and target another ruckman via the draft or in a cheap trade.

If the media story is correct Sydney are keen on TDK also, if that is the case we would get one or both Amartey and McLean cheaply. Let them pay the big $$$ for him as now is not the time to go chips all in on a could be ruckman/forward.

I’d argue quality talls are really important to what we need.

TDK has attributes we lack. Ready to hit his prime. Young athletic - complements Marshall.

A gun key back now and we can work through the exits and see what they might turn into.

Owens Windy Pou look like a potentially elite group of young mids.

 

[puppy_dog7]

Nice to see the club just being on the front foot.

I hated the secret whisper s**t that has been us over the last decade - generally means we were too scared to be forthright about who we wanted in case we missed out.

Agree. And I think it's a great signal to the player in question. If the club are forthright and honest about wanting that player, then it's got to feel good for them and imo only boost the chances of securing their services.

 

[pebblesofsand]

He was referring to the draft.

So you can claim Wilkie.

Sharman & Heath was 2021 mid season draft.

Wouldn’t be claiming any of the others as hits.

Exactly my point.

You cannot talk about the "draft" and then exclude players a club has selected by trading a draft pick - unless of course you are deliberately trying to misrepresent the situation.

And of course its very easy for him to say that the strategy is wrong when he doesn't have to provide any evidence of how not doing the trade would have made us a better team.

With our Pick 56 in 2019, we "selected" Dan Butler by trading that draft pick - the alternative was to keep the pick and select Ned Cahill who has been delisted.

Ned Cahill of the Essendon Bombers AFL Games Played Stats

Ned Cahill of the Essendon Bombers AFL games played and stats.

www.footywire.com

 

[jh38]

I believe elite midfielders are a much more pressing need than a player like TDK. If we are to spend early trade picks on a player, use them on a sound proven young elite midfielder.

For me TDK is completely the wrong way to go trade wise! He is a good player but not worth it would cost us in $$$ or trade. He is another like Marshall who plays his best footy in the ruck and not as a forward, what's the point in having two very similiar players. On top of what we would have to pay him and what Carlton would want trade wise would be outrageous. I think we would be much better served targetting players who are tall forwards firstly, but competent ruckman. Players like Joel Armatey, Hayden McLean, Elliott Himmilberg or Ratogulea or similiar.

The above are all players who have talent but are behind others and we wouldnt have to give up as much trade wise. Plus what we have seen from Max Heath over the preseason indicates that he is not that far away and has shown in the VFL that he is handy when playing forward. I hope they keep Campbell on the list for another year or two as a backup and target another ruckman via the draft or in a cheap trade.

If the media story is correct Sydney are keen on TDK also, if that is the case we would get one or both Amartey and McLean cheaply. Let them pay the big $$$ for him as now is not the time to go chips all in on a could be ruckman/forward.

I know its a big stretch but the player we should be throwing big money at is Andrew Brayshaw. It's a bit unrealistic but he fits the bill being a Sandy boy, would've played footy with King, Stocker, and Battle.

 

[jh38]

I’d argue quality talls are really important to what we need.

TDK has attributes we lack. Ready to hit his prime. Young athletic - complements Marshall.

A gun key back now and we can work through the exits and see what they might turn into.

Owens Windy Pou look like a potentially elite group of young mids.

Getting a second genuine ruck is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Marshall is elite in terms of his around the ground work, you just need a forward who can pinch hit in the ruck and we have that in Jack Hayes. If you want another player to fit that mould then Amartey is the cheap choice. There's no point paying big bucks for a position we're already secure at.

 

[gringo2011]

Some list managers reach for the small scissors at season’s end.
Others opt for the full-length hedge trimmers.
New St Kilda list boss Stephen Silvagni will be thinking about the chainsaw.
When the Saints made the shock decision to punt coach Brett Ratten last year, there was a not-so-subtle acknowledgment that the club’s list was stuck in no-man’s land.
The salary cap was full-to-the-brim and there was nowhere near enough top-end or promising young developing talent to challenge for a top-four berth.
So, after winning only three of their last 11 games last year, the Saints’ powerbrokers went to the freezer, reached for the tub of Neapolitan ice cream and realised there was only strawberry flavour left.
That is not to say there aren’t a lot of capable players at Moorabbin. There are.
The thing about the Saints’ list is that more than 30-odd players could play next week and be fine.
But that is the approach which has elevated the club from 16th in 2018 to only 10th under Ratten in 2022.
They won one final in that time (over Western Bulldogs in 2020 despite having two less scoring shots than the Dogs), before it dawned on the club last season.
It has a mediocre list.
The very deliberate top-up strategy had not worked.

Stephen Silvagni is facing some huge decisions at St Kilda. Picture: AAP Images
President Andrew Bassat said it himself in the club’s review findings when he declared St Kilda was guilty of “focusing impatiently on short-term outputs”.
Now, the question is not whether St Kilda needs to make changes.
The question is how hard do they go?
Does Silvagni bust out the chainsaw or not in six months’ time?
One of the club’s most respected figures, Nick Riewoldt, was forthright last year after participating in the club review, saying he would be “cutting and cutting pretty hard.”
“When you look at the young talent who are gonna form the elite core of this club for the next five to 10 years, there isn’t much there,” Riewoldt said.
Bassat said the club had to commit to a longer-term vision under Lyon “even if this does make the short-term more difficult for us”.
“We do need to improve our stock of top-end talent,” Bassat said.
Complicating matters, it is a considerably tough time to rebuild when the top-four teams have all got better entering 2023, leaving a decent-sized gap between the two ends of the ladder.
Geelong, Brisbane, Melbourne, Richmond, Western Bulldogs and Carlton all improved, at least on paper.
But the problems are two-fold for St Kilda.
Not only is there is a distinct lack of top-end talent, but the salary cap is also fuller than what it should be for a team which missed finals last year and is now in an ‘exploration phase’ under Lyon.


Ross Lyon is set to bring a hard edge to St Kilda. Picture: Getty Images
There are too many mid-tier players on above average money.
When they brought in wave after wave of mature-age players in recent years the Saints had to overpay in some cases, as the club is yet to establish itself as a true destination club for the top-end talent.
And perhaps the club thought it was closer to a premiership than reality would suggest?
The Saints have always been goers under Ratten, but where is the class? The firepower? The difference-makers?
The previous list management strategy “to drive greater competitiveness through trades” lifted the club out of the bottom-four in 2018, but has now officially made way for an “updated plan” amid sweeping personnel change through the football department.
Unless Lyon can work some sort of miracle on the field, the list will need a considerable recalibration at the end of the year to re-align the cap, inject some more A-Graders and build on a new core to help break the longest premiership drought in the game.
But that is four or five years away.

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CRUNCH YEAR
That is why Silvagni and Lyon will take the season to make key decisions on which players not only take the club forward on the field at a justifiable price, but also who can help drive standards off the field.
Over the next six months in the club’s 150th season, some tough calls will have to be made by Silvagni. Who can take this success-starved club forward?
There are some quality pieces to work with, and Marcus Windhager, Mitch Owens, Mattaes Phillipou, Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera and Max King represent the next generation of Saints’ stars to help take the baton from Jack Billings, Seb Ross, Jimmy Webster, Daniel McKenzie and Co.
Billings, who was taken pick three ahead of Marcus Bontempelli in 2013, is entering his 10th season and has likely played his best football, finishing fourth (2019) and fifth (2017) in the best and fairest.
The Saints delisted number one pick Paddy McCartin amid his concussion issues after just 35 games, but he has since established himself as an All-Australian-calibre defender as part of a remarkable career revival at Sydney Swans.
Hard-nut utility Hunter Clark can deliver on his potential, linebreaker Wanganeen-Milera is the best kick at the club, and rookie picks Rowan Marshall and Jack Sinclair are crucial cornerstones.
Lyon will love Brad Crouch’s unwavering effort in the clinches and Jack Higgins and Dan Butler will have big roles to play cranking up the pressure in a small forward line early in 2023.
The captain Jack Steele is a dual All-Australian, and the heartbeat of the team. Jade Gresham provides power and polish in the engine room, and is always threatening forward, but St Kilda may have to fight hard to keep him as a free agent.


Paddy McCartin didn’t work out for the Saints. Picture: AAP Images
If Kysaiah Pickett shocks Melbourne with a trade request, (and the Demons aren’t expecting one) Gresham would be an ideal replacement target for the Dees.
So, there are some building blocks at Moorabbin, and Phillipou was open with recruiters last year about how he wants to become the best player in the game.
Essendon thought long and hard about taking him at pick five over Elijah Tsatas.
It will be a compelling journey, and Phillipou can produce some spine-tingling footy busting through packs midfield and forward.
But beyond the 2021-2022 draft hauls, there is a big black hole.
From 2018-20, King is the one hit and Jack Bytel has shown promise despite injury issues.
But to be blunt, St Kilda has paid a price for giving up on the draft as a club over that period.
It is unfair to pin that just on previous list boss James Gallagher, but rather everyone at the club who makes decisions in helping set the Saints’ direction.
Ultimately, the trajectory flat lined when Ratten was sacked with two years left on his contract after 11 wins in his final season in charge.
The Saints had made a mistake extending his contract in the first place, but the Saints identified in the review they needed a different style of leadership from its new coach. An uncompromising edge.
In 2017, they took hard nut Clark (pick seven) and rebounding defender Nick Coffield (eight) and the club is hopeful they can develop into top-line playmakers.
But the Saints considered trading Clark last year and Coffield is coming off a knee reconstruction. It is a big year for duo. A big year for a lot of players.
In 2018, the recycling trucks fired up as the club picked up Matthew Parker, Nick Hind, Hannebery, Robbie Young, Dean Kent, Ryan Abbott, Brad Hill, Howard, Ryder, Butler, Zak Jones, Tom Highmore, James Frawley, Shaun McKernan, Crouch and Higgins.
Ryder was excellent and among the most impactful ruckmen in the game at the Saints and Mason Wood has been a nice find, for free.
But nine of the 17 are gone and Hannebery and Hill cost the club a packet. North fought hard for Howard at the time, driving up his price.
It is unclear whether Jones is still in the Saints’ best 22.


Dan Hannebery struggled with fitness while at the Saints. Picture: Getty Images
TICK, TOCK
Chris Toce is not a household name, but the Saints’ recruiting manager has one of the biggest jobs in footy making sure the club nails its picks in the next few drafts.
That is how St Kilda can replenish the list and begin the upward climb, but it will require patience over the next few years.
The club will wonder which of its players who aren’t in its future plans will have any trade currency, and Silvagni will be ears open to any attractive offers at season’s end to help build their draft hand.
Is that Clark, Coffield, Billings or Ross?
Perhaps, North Melbourne is the best comparison when it cut 11 players in one swoop after winning only three games in 2020.
North Melbourne had the chance in 2018 to accelerate the rebuild but instead they went for a top-up method, too, which also backfired, adding Dom Tyson, Jared Polec and Jasper Pittard.
Brad Scott finished up as coach the following year.
At St Kilda in 2019, the club gave up picks 12 and 18 for Howard, Ryder and pick 10 in return. But 10 went to Fremantle for Brad Hill.
It means the Saints missed out on their chance to take young stars such as Pickett (pick 12), Will Day (13), Cody Weightman (15), Mitch Georgiades (18) and Sam De Koning (19), but it is easy in hindsight.
Higgins and Hannebery (who played 18 games in four years) effectively cost second-rounders.

The Saints will listen to any offers for Jack Billings. Picture: Getty Images
THIS DRAFT
St Kilda will start the season without an established key forward in Round 1, after taking 19-year-old Anthony Caminiti under the supplemental selection period rules.
The Saints are among the long line of clubs assessing Carlton key forward-ruck Tom De Koning.
The gun tall is out of contract but he is not a free agent, meaning the Saints will have to give up something in a trade to land him, unless there is a Jack Martin-style pre-season draft move in mind.
Silvagni drafted De Koning to Carlton at pick 30 in 2017, but would be reluctant to give up an early single-figure pick for De Koning if the Saints finished in the bottom-four.
Gold Coast prodigy Ben King has long been on Graeme Allan’s wish-list, but the Suns would want the world in return if he ever requested a trade.
Allan remains at the club as strategy consultant. He is Silvagni’s right-hand man.
But for now, King says he is happy up north.
Preferably, the Saints will want to keep their early picks in this year and next year’s draft to build-out that nucleus of younger talent.
In 2016-17, Lyon’s rebuilding Dockers took Griffin Logue (pick eight), Sean Darcy (38), Brennan Cox (41) and Luke Ryan (66), followed by Andrew Brayshaw (two) and Adam Cerra (five), who was turned into key forward Jye Amiss (pick eight) when he moved to Carlton.
Two strong drafts helped turn the Dockers’ fortunes around.
But this is where free agency can also help the Saints attract some more top-liners such as GWS Giants’ tall Harry Himmelberg, without giving up a draft pick in a trade. Can he become star of the game?
The Saints have enough role players.
What they need as part of this fresh start under Lyon is more A-Graders.

Pretty much what I and a couple of others was told to shut up about for the last decade. Funny how it looks like they have got to the same place they started in. Should have been drafting hard 5 years ago but dickhead Lethlean thought he could delist GOPs and replace them with GOPs at the cost of all of our draft picks and not end up back in the same spot.

How Trout survived so long with such poor results is incredible. Finnis just didn't care that much.

 

[stavro#4]

Getting a second genuine ruck is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Marshall is elite in terms of his around the ground work, you just need a forward who can pinch hit in the ruck and we have that in Jack Hayes. If you want another player to fit that mould then Amartey is the cheap choice. There's no point paying big bucks for a position we're already secure at.

And yet we spent 3 seasons loving Paddy.

A ruck who showed how valuable a “good ruck” is.

 

[gringo2011]

I’d argue quality talls are really important to what we need.

TDK has attributes we lack. Ready to hit his prime. Young athletic - complements Marshall.

A gun key back now and we can work through the exits and see what they might turn into.

Owens Windy Pou look like a potentially elite group of young mids.

The only problem with that is that Dunstan, Acres and Billings did too, then it was Clark and Coffield. That's why I don't understand letting Gresham walk. For a club that could find a cat turd in a chocolate box we can't really afford to go gambling with the family cow. We need to stock pile talent not swap it hoping to get something better.

 

[gringo2011]

And yet we spent 3 seasons loving Paddy.

A ruck who showed how valuable a “good ruck” is.

I'm not as big on rucks as some. I think you can get a good enough one cheap like Sydney with Hickey. I'd be watching Naismith at VFL level. He looked better than Hickey before they botched his knee reco. Amartey looks the good too but a bit more of a chop out ruck.

 

[stavro#4]

Pretty much what I and a couple of others was told to shut up about for the last decade. Funny how it looks like they have got to the same place they started in. Should have been drafting hard 5 years ago but dickhead Lethlean thought he could delist GOPs and replace them with GOPs at the cost of all of our draft picks and not end up back in the same spot.

How Trout survived so long with such poor results is incredible. Finnis just didn't care that much.

All I have to say about RTB/SoS/Gubby is…

 

[stavro#4]

The only problem with that is that Dunstan, Acres and Billings did too, then it was Clark and Coffield. That's why I don't understand letting Gresham walk. For a club that could find a cat turd in a chocolate box we can't really afford to go gambling with the family cow. We need to stock pile talent not swap it hoping to get something better.

You need the jigsaw pieces to be available to us before we can judge mate.

I’m not fussed with how they plan on going forward. We have operators with balls now