List Mgmt. 2024 Draft & Trade Hypotheticals

[Ticky009]

 

[rustycrate]

I agree that the answer to winning a GF lies with the current team, but it's still a flawed and incomplete team IMO. I'm not suggesting we get rid of the lot of them or even get rid of anyone, just that more needs to be added to it. I think despite the minor premiership and making a GF, there are glaring holes in the team. And in all honesty I am not convinced that the options are there to fill those holes, especially if we have injuries.

Moving some magnets around will be a start and I think can go a long way to fixing the issues in the team, but it won't be enough if we get a few injuries, which could very easily happen.

It may be flawed and incomplete, but that is what we have. Bringing in Stringer, Barass and the like to me would be desperate and possibly harmful to the chemistry of the team and the club. This is the sort of thing that clubs like Essendon do. It seems to supporters that that is the answer, but it isn't. It is false hope.
The defenders
Who could you bring in. Probably no one. We have two developing talls in Snell and Edwards. We have two experienced backups in Hamling and Francis. We are likely to bring in academy prospect in Cochrane this year. Smalls and mediums are filled by mids. We currently have Lloyd, Campbell and McInerney playing mids who can go back. Not much to do here.
The rucks.
We have Grundy, Mclean. Backup Ladhams who is capable plus stretch and Green developing. Not much to do here.
The mids.
We have ample. Probably too many outside than inside playing in the best 23 in the GF. We had Adams and Sheldrick sitting on the pine. They could potentially make a difference to getting the ball next year. There are mids in the forwards and backs like JJ, Mills, parker, Heeney etc because there is no where else to put them. Unbalances the side. We have enough mids, I just think how we structure the side with them could be one of the problems. I wanted Adams in the GF side.
The forwards.
We have staunchly stuck with 3 talls. We have a great small in Papley. We have a very good medium in Haywood. But the rest is mids like Parker and JJ etc. I would like another small gun and possibly in some games not 3 talls. We don't seem to be effective in the F50. I would like to see Campbell more in the F50.

Like you said. Moving some magnets around. I think we can be too stuck with 3 talls. But the options are limited because our depth in the forwards is very skinny.

Anyway. That is the end of my rant.

 

[caesar88]

We have several options for small forwards. I'm less convinced that Horse and Co are willing to try them consistently, than them not being able to do the job.

Your Warner, Gulden and Jordon types become your backups in midfield. I think there are others in the team that can do it as well. Roberts was drafted as a mid, Campbell, Florent are other options. Adams in bursts, though doesn't really have a 2nd position.

People might scoff at Florent etc. But looking back at the only time we had a midfield with Mills, Rowy and Heeney attending about 50% or more of CBs each (R1 2022), we also had Florent with 20 touches, 8 contested, 5 clearances (incl 4 of our 11 CCs), 4 tackles and 3 goals. We lost centre clearances but won clearances overall by towelling up the GWS mids at stoppages.

You could argue that we don't win a flag if 2 or 3 of your best in particular roles go down, but most sides would be like this. Lions don't get near the grand final if 2 or 3 of Neale, McCluggage, Dunkley , Ashcroft were down.

And that's also why mature agers should be looked at. Others and myself have posted about several inside mids that could do a role for us.

Outside of Kennedy (who probably doesn't want to leave Vic) and maybe Garcia, there probably weren't good options in these areas anyway. Now you might just be bummed that there's nothing happening, rather than that we're not trying, which is understandable, but I think there are other ways to address the issues that aren't just new draftees.

FWIW I wasn't really blaming the club, I don't know what they have or haven't done this trade period beyond us being randomly linked as late suitors to players and then nothing eventuating. I was just saying I was bummed because I wanted more from this off-season than just another crop of draftees (nothing against them, whoever they may be, obviously.)

I think unless we draft a senior-ready small forward like Papley in 2015, our best hopes in this area are Wicks, Cleary, Campbell & Florent. (I would play Warner as a half forward myself but alas, don't like the chances of that happening...)

And I think that's a decent group for Horse to choose from. But I don't know if it's great. Wicks aside, it involves a whole lot of hoping that a bunch of players who are naturally inside midfielders or flankers can turn themselves into quality small forwards. Brisbane had four small forwards kick 20+ goals this season. That's outside of their three talls and their medium in Rayner.

Can we get 20+ goals out of each of Wicks, Cleary, Campbell or Florent? I don't know. It could be argued that maybe we wouldn't need to, given the goals we get from the midfield. But I think it could also be argued that given the goals we DON'T get from the talls, we need to get them from the smalls instead.

I'd still advocate for playing them, because at the end of the day we need small players at ground level who can win ground balls, apply defensive heat inside 50 etc. But geez... it's not ideal stocks for what I think is one of the most important areas of footy these days.

 

[Bloods86]

Relying on sheldrick is dumb hope imo

We also need a kd that allows Mccartin to play interception

Who says we are solely relying on Sheldrick.

For me, the false hope is just assuming we can go out and get in a bunch of established players every year.

 

[Olian]

Have to agree

We are not going to drop of to much imo but I think the others active in trade period will jump us

A few think hawks will drop if but they are young and barass and battle , that’s a very string defence allowing Sicily forward a lot more with there big fella back to. There mid group is young.

Port are the ones dropping of for me

Lions get doodee , McCarthy abd the gun half back back. Loose Daniher but still very good

Cats are always there abouts and grab smith , if they get Oliver then they are a premiership shot imo

Everyone hates the idea but stinger is a match winner and I bet he makes gws almost the best attack , he will still kick over 40 and has break away speed from congestion and can get the game going forward at times

Stringer is a better fit for us than the Giants. Only query is his fitness. Off field stuff seems in the past. For a pick in the 50’s it’s worth the risk for 2 years.

 

[Punts]

I assume you mean disagree.

Interestingly Port have been one of the most active in trading in recent years, yet you think they are most likely to drop off.

I don't necessarily think Hawks drop off, but the risk in bringing in established KPPs from elsewhere is you try to play a more structured style like everyone else and you lose what got you up the ladder.

Bombers, Blues etc have won plenty of trade periods, but have they made any grand finals? Or won a final in the Bombers case.

People were hyping up Richmond re: Taranto and Hopper, and they are now stuck in a rebuild.

This also assumes that we're on a level playing field with teams like the Cats and these other Vic teams, which we aren't.

Hawks will finish top 4 imo and replace port

 

[caesar88]

It may be flawed and incomplete, but that is what we have. Bringing in Stringer, Barass and the like to me would be desperate and possibly harmful to the chemistry of the team and the club. This is the sort of thing that clubs like Essendon do. It seems to supporters that that is the answer, but it isn't. It is false hope.
The defenders
Who could you bring in. Probably no one. We have two developing talls in Snell and Edwards. We have two experienced backups in Hamling and Francis. We are likely to bring in academy prospect in Cochrane this year. Smalls and mediums are filled by mids. We currently have Lloyd, Campbell and McInerney playing mids who can go back. Not much to do here.
The rucks.
We have Grundy, Mclean. Backup Ladhams who is capable plus stretch and Green developing. Not much to do here.
The mids.
We have ample. Probably too many outside than inside playing in the best 23 in the GF. We had Adams and Sheldrick sitting on the pine. They could potentially make a difference to getting the ball next year. There are mids in the forwards and backs like JJ, Mills, parker, Heeney etc because there is no where else to put them. Unbalances the side. We have enough mids, I just think how we structure the side with them could be one of the problems. I wanted Adams in the GF side.
The forwards.
We have staunchly stuck with 3 talls. We have a great small in Papley. We have a very good medium in Haywood. But the rest is mids like Parker and JJ etc. I would like another small gun and possibly in some games not 3 talls. We don't seem to be effective in the F50. I would like to see Campbell more in the F50.

Like you said. Moving some magnets around. I think we can be too stuck with 3 talls. But the options are limited because our depth in the forwards is very skinny.

Anyway. That is the end of my rant.

I always like your rants rusty. Reading all of this, I think we are more on the same page than first thought. I agree with you that I think our defensive stocks are pretty sound, and that our ruck stocks are pretty sound, and that we have probably too many outside midfielders and not enough inside midfielders, and that structuring what to do with them is a problem for the coaches to figure out, and that we need another small gun forward and to be more flexible with how often we go with the three talls.

Where we would appear to differ is in our belief of how much all of the above will effect our chances next year.

 

[Bloods86]

Hawks will finish top 4 imo and replace port

That doesn't really address my points but ok.

 

[rustycrate]

Hawks will finish top 4 imo and replace port

I reckon 8 sides will replace Port. They are on the slide.

 

[Bloods86]

I always like your rants rusty. Reading all of this, I think we are more on the same page than first thought. I agree with you that I think our defensive stocks are pretty sound, and that our ruck stocks are pretty sound, and that we have probably too many outside midfielders and not enough inside midfielders, and that structuring what to do with them is a problem for the coaches to figure out, and that we need another small gun forward and to be more flexible with how often we go with the three talls.

Where we would appear to differ is in our belief of how much all of the above will effect our chances next year.

I actually agree that a mature KPD and inside mid into the list would help, but probably SFA the club can do to get one this year.

So for me the draft is the only avenue, and mature agers are certainly in that discussion.

Though retaining Francis even though we have Hamling, suggests to me there isn't any options we have in mind for a mature KPD.

 

[Bloods86]

I reckon 8 sides will replace Port. They are on the slide.

So much for all the trading.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Relying on sheldrick is dumb hope imo

We also need a kd that allows Mccartin to play interception

Hopefully that will be Edwards.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

It may be flawed and incomplete, but that is what we have. Bringing in Stringer, Barass and the like to me would be desperate and possibly harmful to the chemistry of the team and the club. This is the sort of thing that clubs like Essendon do. It seems to supporters that that is the answer, but it isn't. It is false hope.
The defenders
Who could you bring in. Probably no one. We have two developing talls in Snell and Edwards. We have two experienced backups in Hamling and Francis. We are likely to bring in academy prospect in Cochrane this year. Smalls and mediums are filled by mids. We currently have Lloyd, Campbell and McInerney playing mids who can go back. Not much to do here.
The rucks.
We have Grundy, Mclean. Backup Ladhams who is capable plus stretch and Green developing. Not much to do here.
The mids.
We have ample. Probably too many outside than inside playing in the best 23 in the GF. We had Adams and Sheldrick sitting on the pine. They could potentially make a difference to getting the ball next year. There are mids in the forwards and backs like JJ, Mills, parker, Heeney etc because there is no where else to put them. Unbalances the side. We have enough mids, I just think how we structure the side with them could be one of the problems. I wanted Adams in the GF side.
The forwards.
We have staunchly stuck with 3 talls. We have a great small in Papley. We have a very good medium in Haywood. But the rest is mids like Parker and JJ etc. I would like another small gun and possibly in some games not 3 talls. We don't seem to be effective in the F50. I would like to see Campbell more in the F50.

Like you said. Moving some magnets around. I think we can be too stuck with 3 talls. But the options are limited because our depth in the forwards is very skinny.

Anyway. That is the end of my rant.

For better or worse we are invested in that trio up forward as it did win us 19 games after all.

Very little will change team/position wise Adams/Sheldrick wont get a look in unless we are depleted/Campbell will be put in a different position every week or start as the sub and wonder why the lad cant develop.

I doubt Injury wise we will get a better run at it than this year but who knows i think its a bit fanciful you think rucks are okay =D its basically Grundy then a colossal cliff face.

I think our back 6 is the biggest worry you cant expect Rampe to last the season without some sort of soft tissue occuring, Melican you pray his hammies hold up and Tommy well his issues are obvious.

I expect the natural decline will be offset by having a fully fit Mills available/Campbell hopefully having a defined role and Cleary featuring much more heavily.

With a shakeup in the fitness personnel this pre-season will be everything.

 

[Kiama Chris]

It may be flawed and incomplete, but that is what we have. Bringing in Stringer, Barass and the like to me would be desperate and possibly harmful to the chemistry of the team and the club. This is the sort of thing that clubs like Essendon do. It seems to supporters that that is the answer, but it isn't. It is false hope.
The defenders
Who could you bring in. Probably no one. We have two developing talls in Snell and Edwards. We have two experienced backups in Hamling and Francis. We are likely to bring in academy prospect in Cochrane this year. Smalls and mediums are filled by mids. We currently have Lloyd, Campbell and McInerney playing mids who can go back. Not much to do here.
The rucks.
We have Grundy, Mclean. Backup Ladhams who is capable plus stretch and Green developing. Not much to do here.
The mids.
We have ample. Probably too many outside than inside playing in the best 23 in the GF. We had Adams and Sheldrick sitting on the pine. They could potentially make a difference to getting the ball next year. There are mids in the forwards and backs like JJ, Mills, parker, Heeney etc because there is no where else to put them. Unbalances the side. We have enough mids, I just think how we structure the side with them could be one of the problems. I wanted Adams in the GF side.
The forwards.
We have staunchly stuck with 3 talls. We have a great small in Papley. We have a very good medium in Haywood. But the rest is mids like Parker and JJ etc. I would like another small gun and possibly in some games not 3 talls. We don't seem to be effective in the F50. I would like to see Campbell more in the F50.

Like you said. Moving some magnets around. I think we can be too stuck with 3 talls. But the options are limited because our depth in the forwards is very skinny.

Anyway. That is the end of my rant.

Not far off the mark rustycrate
We drafted Konstanty and Magor and now Hanily to boost our small/medium forward stocks.
We drafted Buller to boost our tall forward stocks.
We haven't sat on our hands.

 

[Superstar swan]

What worries me is that this year we relied heavily on heeney being the perfect footballer. It’s unlikely he can replicate that form again next year.

We also scraped by a lot of games in 20 minute bursts. Not very many we blew a team off the park for 4 quarters.

I understand we have our hands tied in regards to trades , especially with the Warner circus. But everyone else around us is improving their list, you stand still in this league you get blown away

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

I always like your rants rusty. Reading all of this, I think we are more on the same page than first thought. I agree with you that I think our defensive stocks are pretty sound, and that our ruck stocks are pretty sound, and that we have probably too many outside midfielders and not enough inside midfielders, and that structuring what to do with them is a problem for the coaches to figure out, and that we need another small gun forward and to be more flexible with how often we go with the three talls.

Where we would appear to differ is in our belief of how much all of the above will effect our chances next year.

I just dont see it sorry our Ruck* and KPD stocks are extremely vulnerable to missing huge chunks of the season.

I expect 2025 will be more about the message rather than team changes.

 

[Bloods86]

FWIW I wasn't really blaming the club, I don't know what they have or haven't done this trade period beyond us being randomly linked as late suitors to players and then nothing eventuating. I was just saying I was bummed because I wanted more from this off-season than just another crop of draftees (nothing against them, whoever they may be, obviously.)

I think unless we draft a senior-ready small forward like Papley in 2015, our best hopes in this area are Wicks, Cleary, Campbell & Florent. (I would play Warner as a half forward myself but alas, don't like the chances of that happening...)

And I think that's a decent group for Horse to choose from. But I don't know if it's great. Wicks aside, it involves a whole lot of hoping that a bunch of players who are naturally inside midfielders or flankers can turn themselves into quality small forwards. Brisbane had four small forwards kick 20+ goals this season. That's outside of their three talls and their medium in Rayner.

Can we get 20+ goals out of each of Wicks, Cleary, Campbell or Florent? I don't know. It could be argued that maybe we wouldn't need to, given the goals we get from the midfield. But I think it could also be argued that given the goals we DON'T get from the talls, we need to get them from the smalls instead.

I'd still advocate for playing them, because at the end of the day we need small players at ground level who can win ground balls, apply defensive heat inside 50 etc. But geez... it's not ideal stocks for what I think is one of the most important areas of footy these days.

We don't really know if our interest has only been late or if player managers then journos are just saying that to protect a player from the club they stayed at. As much as it shows loyalty if they stay despite interest, it would also highlight them potentially entertaining that interest for a while.

Hanily we drafted in the MSD, I assume with the intent of being a small forward. He was promising and assuming we keep him, hopefully pushes for selection.

Of the 4 Lions "small forwards" you refer to, only 2 were small forwards at drafting. Cameron and Lohmann. Bailey was an inside mid (like Cleary) and Ah Chee an outside mid / half forward (like Campbell). If we actually changed our structure, what is not to say that we can't find a few players to help Paps and Hayward in the small/medium options.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

What worries me is that this year we relied heavily on heeney being the perfect footballer. It’s unlikely he can replicate that form again next year.

We also scraped by a lot of games in 20 minute bursts. Not very many we blew a team off the park for 4 quarters.

I understand we have our hands tied in regards to trades , especially with the Warner circus. But everyone else around us is improving their list, you stand still in this league you get blown away

Its more if those trades for those teams add improvement enough to generate more wins.

I think Fremantle will be a dangerous side if they can land there targets.

 

[Dan87]

I'm still wondering if Will Green can be tried a kick behind the footy next year

 

[Kiama Chris]

I always like your rants rusty. Reading all of this, I think we are more on the same page than first thought. I agree with you that I think our defensive stocks are pretty sound, and that our ruck stocks are pretty sound, and that we have probably too many outside midfielders and not enough inside midfielders, and that structuring what to do with them is a problem for the coaches to figure out, and that we need another small gun forward and to be more flexible with how often we go with the three talls.

Where we would appear to differ is in our belief of how much all of the above will effect our chances next year.

A lot will depend on how effectively we deal with the effects of the Grand Final. If we address it fully and honestly then I think we're a good chance. If not - not.

 

[Bloods86]

I'm still wondering if Will Green can be tried a kick behind the footy next year

We played him in defence at times

 

[Punts]

Freo have offered there first 3 picks for Bolton and baker

 

[patto14]

Relying on sheldrick is dumb hope imo

We also need a kd that allows Mccartin to play interception

Why not rehome McLean down back. Can mark, is quick over short distances.

Been plenty of Fwds move back and excel, Chris tarrant, Jeremy Howe even Mccartin

Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

 

[Kbroome]

Telling someone we have the best ruck combo when most fans and neutrals would disagree comes across as ignorant. Then, having a go at someone for having a different opinion to yours is a shit look.

IMO

Statistically speaking they are the best ruck duo in the comp. Just because they are a big name doesn't mean they are the "best". I think if anything your comment comes across as ignorant given what the stats say, i was shocked when i first saw it but it makes sense given that McLean is the perfect ruck foil to Grundy.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Freo have offered there first 3 picks for Bolton and baker

10,11 and 18?

Jeez thats risky

Richmond might end up with 5 top 20 picks.

 

[caesar88]

We don't really know if our interest has only been late or if player managers then journos are just saying that to protect a player from the club they stayed at. As much as it shows loyalty if they stay despite interest, it would also highlight them potentially entertaining that interest for a while.

Hanily we drafted in the MSD, I assume with the intent of being a small forward. He was promising and assuming we keep him, hopefully pushes for selection.

Of the 4 Lions "small forwards" you refer to, only 2 were small forwards at drafting. Cameron and Lohmann. Bailey was an inside mid (like Cleary) and Ah Chee an outside mid / half forward (like Campbell). If we actually changed our structure, what is not to say that we can't find a few players to help Paps and Hayward in the small/medium options.

That is a good point, though there is a difference I suppose in a 25 year old, 140-gamer Zac Bailey kicking 20+ goals in a season as a small forward and Caiden Cleary doing it at 19 with two full games under his belt. This is what I mean, it's just... not a very convincing group.

I agree though that for all we know, they could end up great. I think Cleary showed some promise as a guy who could buzz around like an angry mosquito inside 50. Campbell and Florent are both quick and can win the ball at ground level, Campbell is a very good tackler as well. Wicks is Wicks, we know what we can get from him, it's just a matter of whether he does it consistently or not.

I just don't know if Horse & co will go through with it.