List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

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I thought Zurhaar was really good today.
Just talking about standing up in big games, Curnow’s three finals last year where he had no impact and those couple of misses in the last quarter against Collingwood in rd 23 the year before doesn’t define him as a player, neither does one crap bit of play in the last minute by Zurhaar who was excellent until then.

Edit. Not to mention he probably should’ve had the match winning goal assist but Tucker butchered the kick

 

[DangerousD]

Wrong again… you’re not good at this are you?

Wrong in what regard and good at what exactly?

Charlie Curnow goal av. 2.13

Jack Martin goal av. 0.88

Or did you not know Charlie has had games where he’s kicked more than 6 goals, you didn’t really specify.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Wrong in what regard and good at what exactly?

Charlie Curnow goal av. 2.13

Jack Martin goal av. 0.88

Or did you not know Charlie has had games where he’s kicked more than 6 goals, you didn’t really specify.

The point I raised was Martin has the capability to win a Norm Smith by kicking 4 goals and having 20 possessions.

It’s that simple.

He’s kicked 4 goals 4 times and each time has had between 15-19 possessions.

Really not a massive leap to think he could do this on the biggest day of the year.

Only those with some weird and premature agenda to draw a line through players half way through a year would argue otherwise.

That appears to be you.

 

[DangerousD]

The point I raised was Martin has the capability to win a Norm Smith by kicking 4 goals and having 20 possessions.

It’s that simple.

He’s kicked 4 goals 4 times and each time has had between 15-19 possessions.

Really not a massive leap to think he could do this on the biggest day of the year.

Only those with some weird and premature agenda to draw a line through players half way through a year would argue otherwise.

That appears to be you.

And the point I was making is that although talented, a four goal 20 possession game is highly unlikely.

There’s no agenda, Martin is and has always been talented, his body has been failing him for some time and when he plays, his output isn’t that high.

That’s not putting a line through him either

 

[Milshouse]

Our team dynamics has improved quite a bit and I don’t think Martin is as vital as he once was.

As an example what fog, tdk, Elijah Williams and cinc bring are just as much if not more important.

Martin Marchy cunners can’t stand up often enough to make any real contributions.

And thinking Martin will win a norm in a GF is just a feel good dream.

I think the club has been more than generous to the injury prones.

We are seriously in our flag window - I’m ok if those 3 contracts are not extended.

I said before, i reckon, Martin 1 year, Marchbank rookie, cunners delist unfortunately, it's not rash and gives us wriggle room

 

[CCurnow3votes]

And the point I was making is that although talented, a four goal 20 possession game is highly unlikely.

There’s no agenda, Martin is and has always been talented, his body has been failing him for some time and when he plays, his output isn’t that high.

That’s not putting a line through him either

It’s exactly what we need to win a premiership.

Somebody from the periphery has to stand up and take their moment.

I’ve seen enough of Martin to believe on the biggest stage he could be that guy.

He was a big part of the reason we stepped up last year.

Let’s just see what the rest of this year brings before we write these guys off.

 

[Milshouse]

We've been missing Cerra most of the year who is our 3rd best midfielder and extremely good defensively. Not sure how we're going to fit anyone else in when we already have Cripps Walsh Cerra Hewett Kennedy as our mainstay mids.

Good point
That's why drafting one is a good option, gives 2-3 years to push Hewitt or Kennedy out, or cover for injuries
But our back line is our oldest area, need to find replacements for Saad, Newman doch McGovern and Boyd isn't young either, I guess that's why got cowan wilson kemp ect.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Good point
That's why drafting one is a good option, gives 2-3 years to push Hewitt or Kennedy out, or cover for injuries
But our back line is our oldest area, need to find replacements for Saad, Newman doch McGovern and Boyd isn't young either, I guess that's why got cowan wilson kemp ect.

Campo twins will help.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

It’s exactly what we need to win a premiership.

Somebody from the periphery has to stand up and take their moment.

I’ve seen enough of Martin to believe on the biggest stage he could be that guy.

He was a big part of the reason we stepped up last year.

Let’s just see what the rest of this year brings before we write these guys off.

A banged up good player isn’t exactly what we need to win a premiership. Let’s just put that out there based off your first paragraph.

You stated that he was a big reason we stepped up last year, he was part of the reason no doubt, but currently he isn’t part of the reason we are having a very good 2024 in what seems to be a pretty even year except for the Swans.

Not many clubs out there would be willing to hold onto him based off how often he is injured. And at 30 years old come the start of 2025, I’m sure other clubs wouldn’t see a reason to chase him either.

Spots are at an all time premium and cuts need to be made.

I think Martin could be important to 2024, but I’d seriously consider tossing him after this year to free up a little more cap space, especially with JSOS coming back next year. If he holds his body together, that’s great for him.

36 games in 4 years will always have people and clubs wondering when it’s time to make the call…

 

[CCurnow3votes]

A banged up good player isn’t exactly what we need to win a premiership. Let’s just put that out there based off your first paragraph.

You stated that he was a big reason we stepped up last year, he was part of the reason no doubt, but currently he isn’t part of the reason we are having a very good 2024 in what seems to be a pretty even year except for the Swans.

Not many clubs out there would be willing to hold onto him based off how often he is injured. And at 30 years old come the start of 2025, I’m sure other clubs wouldn’t see a reason to chase him either.

Spots are at an all time premium and cuts need to be made.

I think Martin could be important to 2024, but I’d seriously consider tossing him after this year to free up a little more cap space, especially with JSOS coming back next year. If he holds his body together, that’s great for him.

36 games in 4 years will always have people and clubs wondering when it’s time to make the call…

There’s already talk of clubs sniffing around for Martin.

He won’t have any trouble finding suitors. You might ask yourself why said suitors would look past his known injury history?

Because they can see he has X factor and is a very unusual forward who plays small and tall, tackles like a madman & hits contests with speed & force with high efficiency ball use.

He’s exactly what we need this year to win the whole thing. ( of course he’s not all we need).

Motlop Curnow Williams
Elijah MacKay Martin
(Fog) edited - sorry Owies!

It’s a heady mix.

We’re about to see if he can replicate last years’ form. If he can we’re a great chance.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

There’s already talk of clubs sniffing around for Martin.

He won’t have any trouble finding suitors. You might ask yourself why said suitors would look past his known injury history?

Because they can see he has X factor and is a very unusual forward who plays small and tall, tackles like a madman & hits contests with speed & force with high efficiency ball use.

He’s exactly what we need this year to win the whole thing. ( of course he’s not all we need).

Motlop Curnow Williams
Elijah MacKay Martin
(Owies)

It’s a heady mix.

We’re about to see if he can replicate last years’ form. If he can we’re a great chance.

Nothing wrong with a NM or * sniffing There’s always going to be someone. But let’s be honest, it’s probably driven by his manager to score another contract.

Let’s just see if he is playing AFL come 2027. Based off his body of work, it’s looking doubtful.

And yes, this year he could most certainly help us. But let’s not kid ourselves, there’s not 10 clubs out there hoping we don’t re-sign him.

It’s pretty proven that the most healthy teams make a good run at a premiership. If he breaks down again this year, most likely not only will it be curtains from us, but from any potential onlooker.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Nothing wrong with a NM or * sniffing There’s always going to be someone. But let’s be honest, it’s probably driven by his manager to score another contract.

Let’s just see if he is playing AFL come 2027. Based off his body of work, it’s looking doubtful.

And yes, this year he could most certainly help us. But let’s not kid ourselves, there’s not 10 clubs out there hoping we don’t re-sign him.

It’s pretty proven that the most healthy teams make a good run at a premiership. If he breaks down again this year, most likely not only will it be curtains from us, but from any potential onlooker.

2027 unlikely .

All I care about is getting him on a HFF in this years GF.

What happens after that matters less.

 

[bluebaggerjuls]

so are our 3 4th round picks gonna be worth nothing now because the Dillon and Kane want to rush a process forward. There has to be some type of way we and other clubs such as Richmond, Brisbane and gc can challenge this

 

[Blue__Balls]

The point I raised was Martin has the capability to win a Norm Smith by kicking 4 goals and having 20 possessions.

It’s that simple.

He’s kicked 4 goals 4 times and each time has had between 15-19 possessions.

Really not a massive leap to think he could do this on the biggest day of the year.

Only those with some weird and premature agenda to draw a line through players half way through a year would argue otherwise.

That appears to be you.

How is it any more of an agenda than claiming that Martin is likely to pull out a career best performance in his first ever GF appearance?

On balance of probability, Martin is more likely to be underdone and do a calf in the leadup to a grand final than he is to play in one, rack up 20 touches and 4 goals, and win a Norm Smith.

Martin has kicked 4 goals exactly 5 times in his career. He's gone goalless 70 times. Something to ponder.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

How is it any more of an agenda than claiming that Martin is likely to pull out a career best performance in his first ever GF appearance?

On balance of probability, Martin is more likely to be underdone and do a calf in the leadup to a grand final than he is to play in one, rack up 20 touches and 4 goals, and win a Norm Smith.

Martin has kicked 4 goals exactly 5 times in his career. He's gone goalless 70 times. Something to ponder.

If you can’t see what Martin adds to the team when fit I can’t help you. I believe he has that capability to help win us a premiership this year & would give him every chance to do so.

He’s had a wretched run with injury this year, is about to make his return - we cannot assume he’ll re-injure due to some fatalist recency bias.

Of our famous winning run last year he played all but one game - having not played since round one. He kicked 3 goals once and two in each final, kicking at least one goal in every game.

He outscores both Curnow & McKay across all finals games we played last year.

Charlie kicking 3 goals & McKay 2 goals total. Martin kicked 4 in finals played.

He averages approx a goal per game for Carlton. His average at GC was lower.

Charlie & McKay alone as marking targets won’t win us a premiership. We need another marking option & Martin provides that as well as his prowess at ground level , footy smarts and ability to bring others into the game.

More pondering needed!

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Wouldn't suprise me if the urgency to change the rules has been instigated by the majority of the leagues clubs.

There must be some serious concerns about the advantages and list strength of Sydney, GWS, Lions and Suns and how that will affect the future balance of power unless something is done sooner, not later.

I'd love to see the results if these changes were put to a vote amongst all clubs.

 

[Blue__Balls]

If you can’t see what Martin adds to the team when fit I can’t help you. I believe he has that capability to help win us a premiership this year & would give him every chance to do so.

He’s had a wretched run with injury this year, is about to make his return - we cannot assume he’ll re-injure due to some fatalist recency bias.

Of our famous winning run last year he played all but one game - having not played since round one. He kicked 3 goals once and two in each final, kicking at least one goal in every game.

He outscores both Curnow & McKay across all finals games we played last year.

Charlie kicking 3 goals & McKay 2 goals total. Martin kicked 4 in finals played.

Charlie & McKay alone as marking targets won’t win us a premiership. We need another marking option & Martin provides that as well as his prowess at ground level , footy smarts and ability to bring others into the game.

More pondering needed!

Why can't we assume he'll get reinjured based on "some fatalist recency bias" but we can argue he'll have 20 touches, kick 4 goals and win a Norm Smith based on nothing more than "I think he's that kind of player"?

I think you've mistaken my intent, too. I'm not suggesting he doesn't make us "better". I think when he's fit and playing at his best he's an important component of our forward mix. But this is a List Management thread, not a 2024 Finals thread.

We're sinking, and have sunk, significant money into Jack Martin over almost 5 years, and the return has been 52 games and 50 goals. In that time, Matt Owies has played more games and averaged more goals per game. In that time Owies has kicked 3 goals 5 times, Martin has kicked 3+ goals 5 times (just the one 4-goal game...his first with us). In that time, Martin has had 20+ disposals once. Once.

If Jack Martin is expecting more money or longer tenure than Matt Owies, he can jog on for all I care. Structurally, he's an important piece. But other medium forwards exist, including plenty who can average a little under a goal a game, but do it across 20 games a year instead of 10.

I'm all for selecting Martin if/when he's fit this year, no doubt. But come season's end he needs to be in the crosshairs if we can fill that structural gap with a more reliable option. Hell, Elijah Hollands is basically doing the job already - hasn't missed a game since his AFL-imposed suspension from pre-season, is averaging 16 touches and just under a goal a game. We've swung Williams forward and he's kicked 9 goals in three weeks. We have options, and the trade period will afford more opportunities to find more.

Some people want to turn their noses up at Zurhaar based on one or two moments yesterday, for example. For all that, in the last 5 seasons he's going at 1.5 goals a game, has had 20+ touches 6 times, has kicked 4+ goals 6 times. Importantly, he's also averaging about 18 games a year, and is 3 years younger than Martin.

If Martin is fit this year, play him. But come October/November, give me a Zurhaar instead thanks.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Why can't we assume he'll get reinjured based on "some fatalist recency bias" but we can argue he'll have 20 touches, kick 4 goals and win a Norm Smith based on nothing more than "I think he's that kind of player"?

I think you've mistaken my intent, too. I'm not suggesting he doesn't make us "better". I think when he's fit and playing at his best he's an important component of our forward mix. But this is a List Management thread, not a 2024 Finals thread.

We're sinking, and have sunk, significant money into Jack Martin over almost 5 years, and the return has been 52 games and 50 goals. In that time, Matt Owies has played more games and averaged more goals per game. In that time Owies has kicked 3 goals 5 times, Martin has kicked 3+ goals 5 times (just the one 4-goal game...his first with us). In that time, Martin has had 20+ disposals once. Once.

If Jack Martin is expecting more money or longer tenure than Matt Owies, he can jog on for all I care. Structurally, he's an important piece. But other medium forwards exist, including plenty who can average a little under a goal a game, but do it across 20 games a year instead of 10.

I'm all for selecting Martin if/when he's fit this year, no doubt. But come season's end he needs to be in the crosshairs if we can bring fill that structural gap with a more reliable option. Hell, Elijah Hollands is basically doing the job already - hasn't missed a game since his AFL-imposed suspension from pre-season, is averaging 16 touches and just under a goal a game. We've swung Williams forward and he's kicked 9 goals in three weeks. We have options, and the trade period will afford more opportunities to find more.

Some people want to turn their noses up at Zurhaar based on one or two moments yesterday, for example. For all that, in the last 5 seasons he's going at 1.5 goals a game, has had 20+ touches 6 times, has kicked 4+ goals 6 times. Importantly, he's also averaging about 18 games a year, and is 3 years younger that Martin.

If Martin is fit this year, play him. But come October/November, give me a Zurhaar instead thanks.

Hey if we’re bringing other players into the conversation I’ll take Stengle. Unfortunately Zuhaar & Stengel will have to wait for our back to back.

Nothing against Owies or Williams - both will be important. Neither present as a third marking option.

You might recall they even through Jack into the backline LY - when he took some timely marks to save the game.

But it’s no coincidence Martin was our highest goal kicker in our finals last year from only 2 games played.

If fit he has massive front half match influence - much more than his one goal per game stats present - he brings others into the game & provides space for Charlie & McKay.

IMHO - if fit he has the capability to kick 4, having 20 in a GF and win a Norm - I think he’s a special player & one that’s very important to our forward mix.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Hey if we’re bringing other players into the conversation I’ll take Stengle. Unfortunately Zuhaar & Stengel will have to wait for our back to back.

Nothing against Owies or Williams - both will be important. Neither present as a third marking option.

You might recall they even through Jack into the backline LY - when he took some timely marks to save the game.

But it’s no coincidence Martin was our highest goal kicker in our finals last year from only 2 games played.

If fit he has massive front half match influence - much more than his one goal per game stats present - he brings others into the game & provides space for Charlie & McKay.

IMHO - if fit he has the capability to kick 4, having 20 in a GF and win a Norm - I think he’s a special player & one that’s very important to our forward mix.

And none of this changes the fact that this is a List Management thread, and the incredibly slim chance that Jack Martin could defy almost 12 years of evidence and rip out a career best game in a GF doesn't change the fact that he only plays half of every season, occupies a list spot and significant portion of our salary cap, and actively hampers continuity in our front half.

I'll keep him on a rookie spot and about 60% of the average AFL wage if he wants to stay. If he wants more than that we should do the right thing by the list, cut him, and recruit a reliable replacement.

 

[DangerousD]

so are our 3 4th round picks gonna be worth nothing now because the Dillon and Kane want to rush a process forward. There has to be some type of way we and other clubs such as Richmond, Brisbane and gc can challenge this

Take them to court, I still think they listen to the industry and bring the changes in next year

 

[Bongo Drum]

More on the possible changes to the draft system is discussed here. It mentions us specifically too.

AFL are a joke if they introduce these changes so late in the piece.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

And none of this changes the fact that this is a List Management thread, and the incredibly slim chance that Jack Martin could defy almost 12 years of evidence and rip out a career best game in a GF doesn't change the fact that he only plays half of every season, occupies a list spot and significant portion of our salary cap, and actively hampers continuity in our front half.

I'll keep him on a rookie spot and about 60% of the average AFL wage if he wants to stay. If he wants more than that we should do the right thing by the list, cut him, and recruit a reliable replacement.

Agree to disagree it seems.

(Edit) Just about the daftest thing we can do is put a line through anybody half way through the season.

How did Williams look at month ago - should we delist/trade was the conversation.

Maybe wait until end of year before we hang these guys - no doubt our list management team would be.

Have a great day

 

[Blue__Balls]

Agree to disagree it seems.

(Edit) Just about the daftest thing we can do is put a line through anybody half way through the season.

How did Williams look at month ago - should we delist/trade was the conversation.

Maybe wait until end of year before we hang these guys - no doubt our list management team would be.

Have a great day

We're 3 and a half months from the free agency period, and about 4 months from the trade period - clubs are absolutely putting lines through blokes and making quiet commitments to opposition players.

This isn't a 20yo kid who hasn't shown anything yet but might do so if given some opportunity. It's a 30yo with a demonstrated proclivity for missing a lot of games. And he's not alone, and it's putting undue pressure on the rest of the list.

Does it mean we don't play him? Of course not. Does it mean if he plays the rest of the year and dominates that we can't reassess? Of course not. But you'd want to see some kind of evidence that his injury troubles are behind him, otherwise all it is is a repeat of last off-season when we extended Cunners and Marchbank.

2023, Marchbank plays the final 5 rounds of the season as well as all three finals. Is solid.
2024, plays two games in the first half of the season.

2023, Cuningham plays the final 10 games of the season, as well as two finals. Is OK but unspectacular.
2024, plays three games in the first half of the season.

2023, Martin plays almost the entire second half of the season, as well as two finals. Is solid.
2024, plays one game in the first half of the season.

Williams is a different kettle of fish. He did his ACL last year. Came back this year and was a bit tentative, lacking touch, suspect defensively. Pitched a move into the forward line, Vossy gave him a crack, and he's looked more energetic than at any time previously with us.

The issue with Martin isn't role. We know what role he fills, and he does do it well. The issue is that he is a liability when it comes to availability, and you can't hold onto highly paid blokes like that indefinitely without it forcing compromise in other areas of your list management strategy.

I'd happily argue that we went out and recruited a Martin replacement in Hollands, giving ourselves a 12 month overlap with which to judge if the change was beneficial. I think it's shown that it is. If we still need another third tall forward, we should go get a reliable one instead paying a premium to a bloke who is genuinely 50/50 to be available when we need him.

 

[marcmurphy3]

I think whether Martin, Cunners, Marchbank get contracts comes down to how many list spots we have and who else we bring in. We won't delist any of them to just take a late pick in the draft so doubt all go but also doubt all stay. If they do get extended, they should be 1 year offers on minimum dollars. If they want more they can walk.

At this stage of the year, this is my pecking order of who I would be most likely to delist to least likely (OOC Players).

Akuei
Mirkov
S.Durdin

M.Caroll
H.O'Keefe

Cunners
Marchbank
Martin

J.Carroll

First 3 are no brainers but Akuei doesn't give us a list spot. Next 2 are developing guys who haven't shown much but haven't been given much opportunity either. O'Keefe could get lucky if we don't want to move on 2 developing rucks in 1 year.

Then you got the 3 injury prone guys who are close to best 22 when fit. I'd struggle to delist any of them ahead of the above 5, with the exception of O'Keefe if he's deemed a structural need. Their order will come to down availability to finish the season but if all are fit that's the order I'd rank them.

J.Carroll I'd like to keep for midfield depth purposes though I question whether he ultimately makes it.

Haven't included Lord and Monahan as think they're automatic extensions.

We'll need at least 4-5 list spots but there is also a possibility of a player or 2 being traded. Will be interesting.

 

[SOS Rules]

For the here and now, let's hope that Jack Martin

19

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

can replicate the injury free run he had last year in the second half of the season and help make us an even harder opposition to beat.

Keeping him on the list beyond this season is an entirely different conversation and is something that is well and truly being contemplated right now.

I just want him to be fit and firing this season when the whips are cracking.