List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Mutineer]

Whatever the ills of the Crows the lost opportunities and mistakes of the seven drafting years through 2014-2020 have come back to haunt us. These players are aged from 28 to 22 years old and should be the backbone of our squad. Only 12 of the 23 remain on the squad with another couple at least likely to be gone next year.

Here’s who we selected, compared to who we could have taken with the next pick available, or a pick soon afterwards or the very next available SA based player.

Jake Lever (14) – Kyle Langford (17)
Harrison Wigg (35) – Alex Neal-Bullen (40)
Mitch McGovern (43) – Caleb Daniel (46)
Wayne Milera (11) - Charlie Curnow (12)
Tom Doedee (17) – Ryan Burton (19)
Jordan Gallucci (15) – Will Hayward (19)
Myles Poholke (44) – Darcy Cameron (48)
Elliot Himmelberg (51) – Jack Graham (53)
Matthew Signorello (62) – Liam Ryan (66), also Nick Larkey (73), Mitch Lewis (76), Jake Waterman (77)
Darcy Fogarty (12) – Zac Bailey (15)
Andrew McPherson (40) – Charlie Ballard (42)
Chayce Jones (9) – Jye Caldwell (11), also Zac Butters (12)
Ned McHenry (15) – Bobby Hill (24), James Rowbottom (25)
Fisher McAsey (6) – Hayden Young (7), also Caleb Serong (8), Sam Flanders (11), Kysaiah Pickett (12) and Will Day (13)
Harry Schoenberg (24) – Jeremy Sharp (27)
Josh Worrell (28) – Charlie Comben (31), also Trent Rivers (32)
Ronin O’Connor (42) – Hugo Ralphsmith (46)
Lachie Gollant (48) - Jake Ricccardi (51)
Riley Thilthorpe ( 2) – Logan McDonald (4)
Luke Pedlar (11) – Tom Powell (13)
Brayden Cook (25) – Nathan O’Driscoll (27)
Sam Berry (28) - Caleb Poulter (30)
James Rowe (38) – Beau McCreery (44)


Crows Team

B: McGovern, Lever, Doedee
HB; Worrell, McAsey, Milera
C: Cook, Berry, Jones
HF: McHenry, Gollant, Poholke
F: Himmelberg, Fogarty, Pedlar
R: Thilthorpe, Schoenberg, Gallucci

Res: O’Connor, Wigg, Rowe, McPherson,
Sub: Signorello


Ghostly Crows Team

B: Ryan, Ballard, Burton
HB: Daniel, Comben, Powell
C: O’Driscoll, Young, Sharp
HF: Hayward, McDonald, McCreery
F: Neal-Bullen, Curnow, Hill
R: Cameron, Caldwell, Graham

Res: Bailey, Coulter, Riccardi, Langford
Sub: Ralphsmith

We might well be poor at coaching and retention but it is clear Hamish’s record was well below average if not disastrous through those years.

Unlike you recruiters don't have the advantage of hindsight.

Not one of those picks was really a stretch as most went about where they were expected to go. If the recruiters had their way it would have been Tim English not Jordan Gallucci as our then full time recruiter Phul Bunn put on the record a couple of years ago when interviewed on trade radio.

 

[Mutineer]

I did hear recently that he really likes Adelaide the city. Feels like it's not much different to Perth.
I don't think there are any issues, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't entertain the idea.

I've heard from this end he's very tight with several of the players especially Hugh Bond which helps as well?

 

[CDC60]

Unlike you recruiters don't have the advantage of hindsight.

Not one of those picks was really a stretch as most went about where they were expected go. If the recruiters had their way it would have been Tim English not Jordan Gallucci as our then full time recruiter Phul Bunn put on the record a couple of years ago when interviewed on trade radio.

Is your view that it's just back luck that we selected so many players through that draft that no longer play AFL or have had limited careers?

 

[wimpy]

Unlike you recruiters don't have the advantage of hindsight.

Not one of those picks was really a stretch as most went about where they were expected go. If the recruiters had their way it would have been Tim English not Jordan Gallucci as our then full time recruiter Phul Bunn put on the record a couple of years ago when interviewed on trade radio.

This rubbish about "didn't have the benefit of hindsight" really annoys me. That's why we have specialist recruiters and pay them well. Surely on the basis of law of averages they should have done a lot better. These recruiters should be in the business of seeking out the best. My main concern is missing the obvious high end picks.
With the McAsey selection, I thought there was a football saying "never use a high pick to select a fullback or CHB, you will always find one or make one", there are plenty of examples to prove this. Just lately I mention Murray and Keane. I went back and took a look at high end selections (pick 6 or higher) CHB/Fullbacks, the only one I could find was Weitering at pick one and fully deserved. Look further down the draft lists and a lot of sensational CHBs/FBs can be found, we panicked.
Why would you pick Josh Rachele at 6 - a Victorian half forward flanker ahead of Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera (pick 11), a South Australian who had been showing great form at U18 level and in a couple of reserves games I saw, he played sensationally. I could also go on about Will Day.

 

[Mutineer]

This rubbish about "didn't have the benefit of hindsight" really annoys me. That's why we have specialist recruiters and pay them well. Surely on the basis of law of averages they should have done a lot better. These recruiters should be in the business of seeking out the best. My main concern is missing the obvious high end picks.
With the McAsey selection, I thought there was a football saying "never use a high pick to select a fullback or CHB, you will always find one or make one", there are plenty of examples to prove this. Just lately I mention Murray and Keane. I went back and took a look at high end selections (pick 6 or higher) CHB/Fullbacks, the only one I could find was Weitering at pick one and fully deserved. Look further down the draft lists and a lot of sensational CHBs/FBs can be found, we panicked.
Why would you pick Josh Rachele at 6 - a Victorian half forward flanker ahead of Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera (pick 11), a South Australian who had been showing great form at U18 level and in a couple of reserves games I saw, he played sensationally. I could also go on about Will Day.

Show me a perfect recruiter and I'll show you a super human, some players evolve above their draft position, some don't, some fail altogether it's as simple as that. A lot of our picks have been in the latter half of the 1st round as well where talent usually starts to thin out. Maybe with the upcoming draft you'll put up 1 specific name for our pick 4 and see how you go and maybe a name you'd take with our 3rd pick which is where it starts to get speculative.

 

[Mutineer]

Is your view that it's just back luck that we selected so many players through that draft that no longer play AFL or have had limited careers?

All recruiters have there hits and misses, it's not a perfect science.

 

[MarcusP2]

All recruiters have there hits and misses, it's not a perfect science.

The question isn't hits and misses, it's hit rate vs the rest of the competition.

We've had a lot of early picks over the last few years, but we aren't improving.

 

[Crows I Am]

I'm still thinking there might be trade with West Coast for Curtin.

Curtin + third round pick, for Pick 3 + 4th round.

I know the late picks don't mean much, but I don't think 3 for Curtin would be equal. Perhaps some future pick swaps could be involved.

If we did it, the draft could look like:

Richmond: Jagga Smith
North: Langford
Adelaide: Sam Lalor
Adelaide: Sid Draper

I'm sure Curtin is going to be a very good player, I'm just not sure what his best position will be.
On the other hand, this move would give us two possibly elite mids. Something we desperately need.

Would be a massive move if we did that. I would prefer us to keep Curtin and back him in to be the gun we are all hoping he turns into. He could be anything really. I agree it is not clear right now what his best position will be, he is a unique prospect. Being so tall he could end up being a very good key forward or defender. He could become a new prototype tall mid or wingman. Or just an allrounder that can play wherever we need him most on the day. His potential is worth holding on to him to see what he can become.

 

[Vader]

The question isn't hits and misses, it's hit rate vs the rest of the competition.

We've had a lot of early picks over the last few years, but we aren't improving.

That depends on how you define "early".

We've had lots of picks in the first round, in the 10+ range. We've only had a few picks in the 1-10 range, and Thilthorpe is the only pick we've had in the top-5.

 

[ABAB]

That depends on how you define "early".

We've had lots of picks in the first round, in the 10+ range. We've only had a few picks in the 1-10 range, and Thilthorpe is the only pick we've had in the top-5.

The McAsey selection at pick 6 has been ingrained in everyone's memory and the bias towards Rachele despite all the statistic showing he had a very good season in the role Nicks has him playing.

 

[ClaudeCurlsCrow]

Whatever the ills of the Crows the lost opportunities and mistakes of the seven drafting years through 2014-2020 have come back to haunt us. These players are aged from 28 to 22 years old and should be the backbone of our squad. Only 12 of the 23 remain on the squad with another couple at least likely to be gone next year.

Here’s who we selected, compared to who we could have taken with the next pick available, or a pick soon afterwards or the very next available SA based player.

Jake Lever (14) – Kyle Langford (17)
Harrison Wigg (35) – Alex Neal-Bullen (40)
Mitch McGovern (43) – Caleb Daniel (46)
Wayne Milera (11) - Charlie Curnow (12)
Tom Doedee (17) – Ryan Burton (19)
Jordan Gallucci (15) – Will Hayward (19)
Myles Poholke (44) – Darcy Cameron (48)
Elliot Himmelberg (51) – Jack Graham (53)
Matthew Signorello (62) – Liam Ryan (66), also Nick Larkey (73), Mitch Lewis (76), Jake Waterman (77)
Darcy Fogarty (12) – Zac Bailey (15)
Andrew McPherson (40) – Charlie Ballard (42)
Chayce Jones (9) – Jye Caldwell (11), also Zac Butters (12)
Ned McHenry (15) – Bobby Hill (24), James Rowbottom (25)
Fisher McAsey (6) – Hayden Young (7), also Caleb Serong (8), Sam Flanders (11), Kysaiah Pickett (12) and Will Day (13)
Harry Schoenberg (24) – Jeremy Sharp (27)
Josh Worrell (28) – Charlie Comben (31), also Trent Rivers (32)
Ronin O’Connor (42) – Hugo Ralphsmith (46)
Lachie Gollant (48) - Jake Ricccardi (51)
Riley Thilthorpe ( 2) – Logan McDonald (4)
Luke Pedlar (11) – Tom Powell (13)
Brayden Cook (25) – Nathan O’Driscoll (27)
Sam Berry (28) - Caleb Poulter (30)
James Rowe (38) – Beau McCreery (44)


Crows Team

B: McGovern, Lever, Doedee
HB; Worrell, McAsey, Milera
C: Cook, Berry, Jones
HF: McHenry, Gollant, Poholke
F: Himmelberg, Fogarty, Pedlar
R: Thilthorpe, Schoenberg, Gallucci

Res: O’Connor, Wigg, Rowe, McPherson,
Sub: Signorello


Ghostly Crows Team

B: Ryan, Ballard, Burton
HB: Daniel, Comben, Powell
C: O’Driscoll, Young, Sharp
HF: Hayward, McDonald, McCreery
F: Neal-Bullen, Curnow, Hill
R: Cameron, Caldwell, Graham

Res: Bailey, Coulter, Riccardi, Langford
Sub: Ralphsmith

We might well be poor at coaching and retention but it is clear Hamish’s record was well below average if not disastrous through those years.

pretty harsh about the calls in the third and fourth rounds.....
biggest failures are more so the mchenry, jones, milera, mcasey and gallucci.
the rest are hit an miss or quiet even....

our rookie selections worked well during that time
2014 - Charlie Cameron
2015 - Reilly O'Brien
2016 - Alex Keath & Hugh Greenwood
2019 - Jordon Butts
2020 - Ben Keays

 

[George Kramer]

Show me a perfect recruiter and I'll show you a super human, some players evolve above their draft position, some don't, some fail altogether it's as simple as that. A lot of our picks have been in the latter half of the 1st round as well where talent usually starts to thin out. Maybe with the upcoming draft you'll put up 1 specific name for our pick 4 and see how you go and maybe a name you'd take with our 3rd pick which is where it starts to get speculative.

I’ll show you a recruiter that has blown 4 first round picks, one who has failed to build us a strong midfield in a rebuild with numerous first rounders, one who has been a recruiter for what 14 years and has seen the list he developed not make finals for 7 years and one who has failed to draft a developing ruck in how long?

Recruiters should be judged on their performance and you can throw up as many excuses as you want, his record is shithouse and if you’re in any doubt read above again.

Bullshit hindsight.

 

[George Kramer]

I can’t believe we are in the position we are in and anyone with half a brain can defend Hamish’s record, FMD

 

[Shifty Crow]

This rubbish about "didn't have the benefit of hindsight" really annoys me. That's why we have specialist recruiters and pay them well. Surely on the basis of law of averages they should have done a lot better. These recruiters should be in the business of seeking out the best. My main concern is missing the obvious high end picks.
With the McAsey selection, I thought there was a football saying "never use a high pick to select a fullback or CHB, you will always find one or make one", there are plenty of examples to prove this. Just lately I mention Murray and Keane. I went back and took a look at high end selections (pick 6 or higher) CHB/Fullbacks, the only one I could find was Weitering at pick one and fully deserved. Look further down the draft lists and a lot of sensational CHBs/FBs can be found, we panicked.
Why would you pick Josh Rachele at 6 - a Victorian half forward flanker ahead of Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera (pick 11), a South Australian who had been showing great form at U18 level and in a couple of reserves games I saw, he played sensationally. I could also go on about Will Day.

the issue with McAsey, the club had the intel that he had flight risk red flags and they still went ahead with the selection

total balls-up and wasted top 10
pick….

rebuilds need to nail every top 10 pick


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Shifty Crow]

One of our biggest losses in recent years is losing Alan Stewart

Leaving the keys to Hamish has hurt us more than any head coaching decision


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mutineer]

The question isn't hits and misses, it's hit rate vs the rest of the competition.

We've had a lot of early picks over the last few years, but we aren't improving.

Other than McAsey who are the early 1st round misses you describe, Chayce Jones is 6 years ago, that's more than a few years and he has played 91 AFL games after all and Ned McHenry 70 games.

If you go back even 10 years and discount the 1st rounders used in the Bryce Gibbs and Izak Rankine (3 1st round picks that the recruiters didn't have access to).

2014 - Pick 14 Jake Lever
2015 - Pick 11 - Wayne Milera - Pick 17 Tom Doedee
2016 - Pick 15 - Jordan Gallucci
2017 - Pick 12 - Darcy Fogarty - 2 1st rounds picks out for Gibbs
2018 - Pick 9 Chayce Jones - Pick 16 Ned McHenry
2019 - Pick 6 Fischer McAsey trade down that netted 2020 Pick 10 - Most likely Noah Anderson bar for Suns AFL gift.
2020 - Pick 2 Riley Thilthorpe - Pick 10 Luke Pedlar - Pick 25 Brayden Cook
2021 - Pick 6 Josh Rachele
2022 - Pick 5 used to acquire Izak Rankine - Pick 17 Max Michalanney
2023 - Pick 8 Dan Curtin (trade up) - Pick 21 Charlie Edfwards - Pick 27 Oscar Ryan.

 

[rabidcrow]

Show me a perfect recruiter and I'll show you a super human, some players evolve above their draft position, some don't, some fail altogether it's as simple as that. A lot of our picks have been in the latter half of the 1st round as well where talent usually starts to thin out. Maybe with the upcoming draft you'll put up 1 specific name for our pick 4 and see how you go and maybe a name you'd take with our 3rd pick which is where it starts to get speculative.

2016-2019, given the picks available to us was very disappointing and has completely stifled our rebuild. Some of its bad luck - but only hitting with 1 out of 5 first rounders is proving super costly
No question drafting has been back on track since 2020 but damage has been done



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[ABAB]

the issue with McAsey, the club had the intel that he had flight risk red flags and they still went ahead with the selection

total balls-up and wasted top 10
pick….

rebuilds need to nail every top 10 pick


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

The biggest concern wasn't flight risk but lack of desire to be a professional AFL player which wasn't picked up during interviews but who knows whether COVID-19 affected him more than others as it has done in the real world and gave him a slight nudge to quitting AFL.

 

[Scorpus]

This rubbish about "didn't have the benefit of hindsight" really annoys me. That's why we have specialist recruiters and pay them well. Surely on the basis of law of averages they should have done a lot better. These recruiters should be in the business of seeking out the best. My main concern is missing the obvious high end picks.

Yep. A while back I looked at Hamish vs the free Phantom Form Guide article on AFL.com.au from Cal Twomey (not the phantom draft, the form guide). No hindsight required at all because those rankings were available months before the draft.

Here's who we would have taken if we had used Cal Twomey's phantom form guide to draft instead of Ogilvie

Jake Lever > Jayden Laverde
Harrison Wigg > Ed Vickers-Willis
Wayne Milera > Charlie Curnow
Tom Doedee > Harley Balic
Jordan Gallucci > Tim English
Myles Poholke > Jack Graham
Darcy Fogarty > Darcy Fogarty
Andrew McPherson > Sam Hayes
Chayce Jones > Jye Caldwell
Ned McHenry > Riley Collier-Dawkins
Will Hamill > Curtis Taylor
Fischer McAsey > Caleb Serong
Harry Schoenberg > Josh Worrell
Josh Worrell > Trent Bianco
Riley Thilthorpe > Logan McDonald
Luke Pedlar > Tanner Bruhn
Brayden Cook > Brayden Cook
Sam Berry > Jack Carroll
James Rowe > Zavier Maher
Josh Rachele > Ben Hobbs
Jake Soligo > Arlo Draper
Dan Curtin > Dan Curtin

I don't think paid club employee Hamish outperforms the resource provided for free online

 

[Mutineer]

pretty harsh about the calls in the third and fourth rounds.....
biggest failures are more so the mchenry, jones, milera, mcasey and gallucci.
the rest are hit an miss or quiet even....

our rookie selections worked well during that time
2014 - Charlie Cameron
2015 - Reilly O'Brien
2016 - Alex Keath & Hugh Greenwood
2019 - Jordon Butts
2020 - Ben Keays

Tough calling Milera a miss, he's shown the talent was there just that he's never had a decent run at it and it now seems likely it's a case of what could have been. McAsey I'd be almost certain never would have happened if the AFL hadn't intervened and gifted theSuns Noah Anderson purportedly because he was Matt Rowell's best mate from junior school days right up to their draft day.

 

[Vader]

the issue with McAsey, the club had the intel that he had flight risk red flags and they still went ahead with the selection

total balls-up and wasted top 10
pick….

rebuilds need to nail every top 10 pick

The problem with McAsey wasn't that he was a flight risk - it was his mental health, which the club was unaware of when they drafted him.

... and no rebuild nails every top 10 pick. Does the name Beau Dowler mean anything to you? Hawthorn selected him at pick #6 in the 2005 ND. He turned out to be a dud (which is why you've probably never heard of him). It didn't stop them from becoming a powerhouse.

 

[Vader]

One of our biggest losses in recent years is losing Alan Stewart

Leaving the keys to Hamish has hurt us more than any head coaching decision

I agree that Stewart was a massive loss to the team... but I'm confused by your attempt to link his departure to Ogilvie. The two have/had completely different jobs within the AFC organisation.

 

[George Kramer]

The problem with McAsey wasn't that he was a flight risk - it was his mental health, which the club was unaware of when they drafted him.

... and no rebuild nails every top 10 pick. Does the name Beau Dowler mean anything to you? Hawthorn selected him at pick #6 in the 2005 ND. He turned out to be a dud (which is why you've probably never heard of him). It didn't stop them from becoming a powerhouse.

2005????? Lol

As for McAsey, his problem is he was so slow and comments from his old coach should have had us concerned about his football focus.

So what was the cause of McAseys mental health issues given you’re using it as an excuse. Perhaps it was because his football career didn’t pan out like he hoped and he was stuck playing seconds.

Then throw out the fact we used pick 6 on a KPD and ignore the gun mids that were picked after him.

 

[El Doederino]

Other than McAsey who are the early 1st round misses you describe, Chayce Jones is 6 years ago, that's more than a few years and he has played 91 AFL games after all and Ned McHenry 70 games.

If you go back even 10 years and discount the 1st rounders used in the Bryce Gibbs and Izak Rankine (3 1st round picks that the recruiters didn't have access to).

2014 - Pick 14 Jake Lever
2015 - Pick 11 - Wayne Milera - Pick 17 Tom Doedee
2016 - Pick 15 - Jordan Gallucci
2017 - Pick 12 - Darcy Fogarty - 2 1st rounds picks out for Gibbs
2018 - Pick 9 Chayce Jones - Pick 16 Ned McHenry
2019 - Pick 6 Fischer McAsey trade down that netted 2020 Pick 10 - Most likely Noah Anderson bar for Suns AFL gift.
2020 - Pick 2 Riley Thilthorpe - Pick 10 Luke Pedlar - Pick 25 Brayden Cook
2021 - Pick 6 Josh Rachele
2022 - Pick 5 used to acquire Izak Rankine - Pick 17 Max Michalanney
2023 - Pick 8 Dan Curtin (trade up) - Pick 21 Charlie Edfwards - Pick 27 Oscar Ryan.

How many All Australians in that lot?

 

[Mutineer]

The problem with McAsey wasn't that he was a flight risk - it was his mental health, which the club was unaware of when they drafted him.

... and no rebuild nails every top 10 pick. Does the name Beau Dowler mean anything to you? Hawthorn selected him at pick #6 in the 2005 ND. He turned out to be a dud (which is why you've probably never heard of him). It didn't stop them from becoming a powerhouse.

People on this board also forget the general consensus on this board was Jackson Hately was their favoured pick in 2018, at least Chayce and Neddy are still on an AFL list in 2024.
They also forget the general consensus on this board was we should take Dylan Stephens in 2019 who is at his 2nd club (Kangaroos) after Sydney jettisoned him and hardly setting the world on fire managing 15 games subbed off 3 times and subbed on twice.