Training 2024 Pre-Season discussion

[cats_09]

It's a fair assumption that the players that only play the 2nd 1/2 or last 1/4 are probably on the outer.

It could also depend on how the teams are utilising their benches for these matches, player management at this time and what they're trying to get out of these matches.

Coaches likely have a good idea of what the veterans will bring to things, but these matches present an opportunity to have a good look at those guys on the fringes and there can be more value in giving them 4 quarters than say Dangerfield & Cameron

Just need to look at GWS last night - Brent Daniels didn't play the second half, while Sam Taylor, Lachie Whitfield & Josh Kelly sat on the bench for the majority of the second half. Unless injured, I think it's safe to say all 4 will be in GWS's team for round 1 and likely starting on the field

 

[Willo_]

Normally it wouldn’t matter.

But there is 8 on the bench tonight and CHAWKTS has mentioned that we are likely rotating 5 on the ground initially and leaving the other 3 as replacements for injuries or to come on late.

It possibly can show a little bit of the pecking order and at this point of the year we are just looking to talk about anything to fill in time.

I did mention it because I’m interested to know if Neale will start on the ground and potentially play a full game… if he starts on the bench and is one of the 3 players just biding their time to come on the ground, it shows the we are probably less likely to select him in R1 and we will probably only see 20 mins of him rather than a full game.

It can seem like a little thing… but in this occasion it gives us a bit more of an indication of where Neale is at in the pecking order.

It’s just a fringe player thing.

There’s still spots up for grabs and we (me that is… probably some others) are looking for anything to gain info to make a judgement on who we think the club thinks is B22/23

yeah i hadn't at all realised there was that many on the bench

 

[FootyLad0]

Rubbish, how many 3rd year talls that entered the system raw as all hell are currently finished products? Hes got all the time in the world to come good.

You needed to read on further...

 

[CHAWKTS]

Bullet point from AFL website is really encouraging.

Does anybody know how they measure pressure? Dempsey didn’t get too many tackles or smothers etc but I did notice him around pressuring - just wasn’t sure what formula they use. In any event good sign

When max gets composure at the end of his runs it will be very handy switch

 

[CatToTheFuture]

You certainly aren't stupid and I hope my post didn't convey that as it wasn't the intention.

My take on your initial post was you aren't a fan of having a player or players who bring run, overlap, break lines, and set up chains in the back half. Or at least you didn't regard it as important.

I think Max could be a revelation in the back half. That isn't to say it'll be his lot for all time.

So long as we have a player of two with the ball skills and pace to break lines in the back half as is the approach of all succesful clubs in this day and age I'm happy. Regrettably, there hasn't been an obvious choice on our list fot that role for some time. Hence trying Oisin well before he was AFL ready.

So um, on reflection, yeah I think we need midfield support, but jeez Holmes looked good off half back. Perhaps I could be wrong on that one.

Also, I don't know who needs to hear this but, young Max is paying $151 for the Brownlow and I couldn't tell you who else is polling heavily for the cats.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

View attachment 1917237
Bullet point from AFL website is really encouraging.

Does anybody know how they measure pressure? Dempsey didn’t get too many tackles or smothers etc but I did notice him around pressuring - just wasn’t sure what formula they use. In any event good sign

When max gets composure at the end of his runs it will be very handy switch

I think it's the pressure point which is just a sum of pressure acts. A lot of chasing really.

 

[Footy Smarts]

The game completely changed when Holmes went to midfield. We started dominating around the ball.

I get he looks good off half back but a number of times Essendon won the ball back and our defence was disorganised when the ball quickly rebounded.

He looks like he could have a massive breakout season. We need that much more in midfield than off half back.

 

[Mr Meow]

So um, on reflection, yeah I think we need midfield support, but jeez Holmes looked good off half back. Perhaps I could be wrong on that one.

Also, I don't know who needs to hear this but, young Max is paying $151 for the Brownlow and I couldn't tell you who else is polling heavily for the cats.

In reality Holmes new role would be similar to Nick Daicos (but with Holmes attributes). Free roaming back flanker, swapping as an inside or outside midfielder when he sees fit. Houston is another one with a similar role. 1/3 running half back, 1/3 wingman, 1/3 rover or something.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

In reality Holmes new role would be similar to Nick Daicos (but with Holmes attributes). Free roaming back flanker, swapping as an inside or outside midfielder when he sees fit. Houston is another one with a similar role. 1/3 running half back, 1/3 wingman, 1/3 rover or something.

Yeah I'm coming around to it.

I do think we need to hard tag oppo players in that role. We need to also think hard about what our midfield looks like because I have this building sense of mild panic

 

[Mr Meow]

Yeah I'm coming around to it.

I do think we need to hard tag oppo players in that role. We need to also think hard about what our midfield looks like because I have this building sense of mild panic

Why the panic?

Essendon's top 2 midfielders are absolute ball magnets (it's not a model that sees them win finals) and Parish was using it well for once.

But it seemed a case of Essendon starting with high intensity while we were relaxed for a half, then the roles switched second half.

Midfield honours were even in the end. In fact I'd say we had the edge as we created more scoring chances.

The thing is Geelong hasn't had 30 plus disposal guys since like 2017. Guthrie has been the closest since then. Otherwise we very much have 5 or 6 go through there who have 18 to 23 disposal type numbers. And we go super heavy on rotations.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Why the panic?

Essendon's top 2 midfielders are absolute ball magnets (it's not a model that sees them win finals) and Parish was using it well for once.

But it seemed a case of Essendon starting with high intensity while we were relaxed for a half, then the roles switched second half.

Midfield honours were even in the end. In fact I'd say we had the edge as we created more scoring chances.

The thing is Geelong hasn't had 30 plus disposal guys since like 2017. Guthrie has been the closest since then. Otherwise we very much have 5 or 6 go through there who have 18 to 23 disposal type numbers. And we go super heavy on rotations.

Yeah valid, but I just think we need to add a mature body or two to the rotation because I think the kids are a year or two off

 

[Mr Meow]

Yeah valid, but I just think we need to add a mature body or two to the rotation because I think the kids are a year or two off

We're talking about this year though right?

Dangerfield, Blicavs, Atkins and Stanley are the mature guys. Bruhn and Holmes entering 4th years which is approaching breakout potential stage. Then Clark as a young buck. Guthrie to come back later. I don't think the balance is bad.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

We're talking about this year though right?

Dangerfield, Blicavs, Atkins and Stanley are the mature guys. Bruhn and Holmes entering 4th years which is approaching breakout potential stage. Then Clark as a young buck. Guthrie to come back later. I don't think the balance is bad.

I'm talking about the transition over the next couple of years. Basically expecting nothing from Dangerfield and Duncan and needing to replace the rotations for Blitz and Guth.

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm talking about the transition over the next couple of years. Basically expecting nothing from Dangerfield and Duncan and needing to replace the rotations for Blitz and Guth.

Hmm, I focus my "future years" worry more to the 2025 trade/draft thread, a pre season thread I'm definitely just focusing on what we have for 2024.

I don't think we should waste toooo much of our last time with various legends wondering what a couple of years down the track looks like. In the off season it's different of course.

So that spiel aside I am still not panicking over the 2024 midfield mix. To me that feels like carrying trauma over from a catastrophic bad run of luck and preparation in 2023.

Sure if Dangerfield, Duncan, Blicavs, Holmes and Stanley miss chunks (at the same time) or play through injuries again we'll probably struggle a bit.

When we had all of the above in the side last year our results were pretty good overall.

I know we face a year of writing out obituaries for every 30+ year old if they dare make an error, "look slow" or have a quiet quarter/game. And we'll certainly crack into every kid who hasn't broken out into a genuine superstar ahead of time. I accept that's just classic wholesome BigFooty stuff.

But something good might happen too.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

The game completely changed when Holmes went to midfield. We started dominating around the ball.

I get he looks good off half back but a number of times Essendon won the ball back and our defence was disorganised when the ball quickly rebounded.

He looks like he could have a massive breakout season. We need that much more in midfield than off half back.

I get why they like him in defence because we lack slingshot run there and we can get pinned in d50. Its easier to defend the other side of halfway. Its about whether you think the midfield can cope without him or not as i agree hes a difference maker there.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Why the panic?

Essendon's top 2 midfielders are absolute ball magnets (it's not a model that sees them win finals) and Parish was using it well for once.

But it seemed a case of Essendon starting with high intensity while we were relaxed for a half, then the roles switched second half.

Midfield honours were even in the end. In fact I'd say we had the edge as we created more scoring chances.

The thing is Geelong hasn't had 30 plus disposal guys since like 2017. Guthrie has been the closest since then. Otherwise we very much have 5 or 6 go through there who have 18 to 23 disposal type numbers. And we go super heavy on rotations.

Great points.

In the past, we where exactly what you're criticizing Essendon for. Ablett, Danger, Duncan, Selwood hell even Menegola would be in the 25-40 range most weeks, but it didn't seem to work out too well come finals.

What we've done since has changed it completely. We run so many through there, and the players who do play bigger minutes in there hover around 55-70% game time. A far cry from most of the other midfield topliners, who are closer to 85 or even 90%.

Turns over the squad, gets experience into the youngsters, and keeps the list fresh for when it actually matters.

People talk about 'ruck by committee' a lot, which is basically having 1-3 ruckman who all share the load, rather than one standalone guy. We've basically done the midfield equivalent of that.

The only time it's blown up was last year, under ridiculous injury/lack of pre-season fitness circumstances

 

[Mr Meow]

Great points.

In the past, we where exactly what you're criticizing Essendon for. Ablett, Danger, Duncan, Selwood hell even Menegola would be in the 25-40 range most weeks, but it didn't seem to work out too well come finals.

What we've done since has changed it completely. We run so many through there, and the players who do play bigger minutes in there hover around 55-70% game time. A far cry from most of the other midfield topliners, who are closer to 85 or even 90%.

Turns over the squad, gets experience into the youngsters, and keeps the list fresh for when it actually matters.

People talk about 'ruck by committee' a lot, which is basically having 1-3 ruckman who all share the load, rather than one standalone guy. We've basically done the midfield equivalent of that.

The only time it's blown up was last year, under ridiculous injury/lack of pre-season fitness circumstances

Yep. It basically didn't work last year when we had Ceglar rucking to Bruhn (before he improved), Atkins (who took a while to get going) and Blicavs (who faded when others were absent). Without the extra quality rotations of Guthrie, Dangerfield and Selwood.

Duncan missing or shaking off niggles too. So we tried to make Holmes a permanent midfielder carrying too much burden a little too soon. Then HE got injured and it was all too much.

Now we still won't have Selwood but we've had a year to adapt to that.

Guthrie won't be around to later but I see this as a big opportunity for Bowes (experienced) and Clark (young buck) to shine.

Holmes is ready to explode and Bruhn should up his output even compared to his improved second half of 2023.

Dangerfield and Duncan have had better pre seasons. Fact of the matter is, even in their veteran states, when both of these two play we tend to perform well.

All we need is for Bruhn, Atkins, Holmes and one of Stanley/Conway to stay fit and it can return to that 2022 model of death by a thousand cuts as a midfield group.

Rip a few of the above out at the same time and of course we'll struggle. As would any team when you gut their midfield.

 

[Lingsface]

I hope Bowes plays next week. edit: rd 1.

 

[michelzing]

I hope Bowes plays next week. edit: rd 1.

I agree - I was a touch uncertain about Bowes last year - but after a year in the Geelong system, I believe he could be a real "Breakout" Contender particularly if given more midfield time - he really uses the ball well and he's tough - just the right age as well.
We could in fact get a real "Double Play" out of the "Salary Cap" trade with Gold Coast in 2022- in that both Bowes and Clark may well become permanent fixtures in our midfield by years end

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I agree - I was a touch uncertain about Bowes last year - but after a year in the Geelong system, I believe he could be a real "Breakout" Contender particularly if given more midfield time - he really uses the ball well and he's tough - just the right age as well.
We could in fact get a real "Double Play" out of the "Salary Cap" trade with Gold Coast in 2022- in that both Bowes and Clark may well become permanent fixtures in our midfield by years end

Also, by the end of this year Bowes will also be on a normal contract as his first two years remained front loaded, but not as heavy as they were at GCS.

So essentially we'll have fully paid our end of the bargain out and everything from there will be pure upside.

 

[MacStradbroke]

Sinclair should miss r1, Howard just done a string, our forwards love this

 

[goyoucatters]

Sinclair should miss r1, Howard just done a string, our forwards love this

I can see the headlines already...

'Undermanned Saints crash Cats homecoming with shock win against the odds.'



For myself, then, I'd prefer them to bring a really strong line-up. I don't fear the best they have and I don't want complacency entering into any Cats player's minds regarding this game. Will be a disaster (on the night, and probably for our season) if we get rolled in this fixture.

 

[MacStradbroke]

I can see the headlines already...

'Undermanned Saints crash Cats homecoming with shock win against the odds.'



For myself, then, I'd prefer them to bring a really strong line-up. I don't fear the best they have and I don't want complacency entering into any Cats player's minds regarding this game. Will be a disaster (on the night, and probably for our season) if we get rolled in this fixture.

I’m happy to beat ‘em with half their team missing, really don’t mind either way

 

[goyoucatters]

I’m happy to beat ‘em with half their team missing, really don’t mind either way

Sure. Over more than 40 years of following the Cats, I've failed to see convincing and continuing evidence of a team that necessarily takes advantage of playing against weakened opposition, though. On the contrary, I'm painfully aware of numerous occasions where a clear underestimation of our opponents has ended up with us embarrassing ourselves and heading home chastened.

On that basis, then, I'm fine to play and beat their best. In the end, I'm happier going into games eyes wide open and getting rolled than being 'pantomimed' by clearly inferior opposition. Has happened too many times (in really important games), in my memory.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Sinclair should miss r1, Howard just done a string, our forwards love this

5 goal win minimum IMO. We won't lose round 1 with the opening of the stand and the embarrassment of last year. It would go against everything we know and love about this club.