List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

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Klaatu said:
Hawthorn going great I still have queries re next year can Chol & Gunston still have the same impact ???, game style will be more scrutinised, minimal injuries.


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I don't think they're reliant on those two players for their flag push. Their ball control and movement system is elite from what I can see. They don't rely on too many long kicks, they keep control of the thing with eyes lowered and they all run and handball. Against Carlton it was almost like the Blues were never going to get the ball back from them.

At times we've shown similar capabliities, but the long 50m kicks to a contest make me shudder. It's just high risk low reward. We need more condifidence and control. The other thing that gets me is whenever a Saints player takes a mark, he seems to immediately run backwards 5 or 10 metres. Why do that? Hold your ground, asses the options and keep the pill moving!
 

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Watching Hawthorn I see few long bombs to a pack (outside 50 at least), I see few players running back on the mark and assessing their options. They seem to have eliminated those low percentage plays from their ethos and it's paying dividends. They control the thing and keep it moving, when it hits the ground they have players ready to pounce on it.
 
I understand people are totally against my following proposal and it isnt going to occur but as a club I would much rather lose Max King for 2 x 1st round picks than Battle for 1. I would rather trade out King and get two early first rounders and build a more competitive midfield and forward line, than lose Josh.

Max still hasnt put together a consistent band of games and is being paid on potential and IMO is over rated. I feel we would be far better off spending our money on elite mids or other positions if we can attract them. As St Kilda supporters we fall into the trap of 'hero worshipping' full forwards because of Locketts achievements. But Lockett never played in a winning GF team, teams are much better served having serviceable tall forwards and spreading the load across the entire zone.

I was watching Ben King on the weekend and he suffers from the exact same issues as Max. The ball had fallen 10 or 15 minutes away from a marking contest and Ben just stood and watched other players fight for the ball, he didnt even bother to walk over and be an option. That stuff does my head in, you can imagine what it does for his team mates when they are busting their arses to keep the ball inside 50. I dont think they are lazy they just dont have the ability to give back to back efforts and it is a major weakness in their game. Yes Ben has kicked 50 odd goals this year but what has his team done, Hawthorn traded in Mabor Chol cheaply last year and for me he provides a much better team contest than the Kings.

Caminiti, Sharman and Keeler should be our tall forwards into the future. If Hayes can get his body right and stay on the track he can add value as well. They are not as good over head as Max but offer so much more in other important aspects of their games. If you cant see how much better our forward line is functioning since Max has been injured, you are not looking. Sharman, Membrey etc are playing their best footy of the year, our entries are better and we are kicking big scores spread across the entire team.
 
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Thought Hawks were onto something when they carved us up after half time last year. It was like they flicked a switch and we couldn't stop it....like GWS in last years final...we just couldn't stop the buggers.
Same with Bris this year.

They beat us 3 different ways.

Hawthorn switch and run past for handball before we could set up.

GWS linking handball rugby style from defence exquisite kicking and Jelly Kelly...they get 2 metres on us and we could not catch them.

Brisbane forward handball and run out of centre stoppage.

We need more speed and strength around the ball. Better kicks, that's why we give it to Sinclair NWM Wilkie out of the backline. Battle long kick to break the lines and Hill Henry Steele and Pou into fwd 50. Byrnes is also providing that skull as well.

Just need a different protype Mid, quick and strong.....ps so does every other team as well.



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SteeleSaints said:
I understand people are totally against my following proposal and it isnt going to occur but as a club I would much rather lose Max King for 2 x 1st round picks than Battle for 1. I would trade out King and get two early first rounders and build a more competitive midfield and forward line, than lose Josh.

Max still hasnt put together a consistent band of games and is being paid on potential and IMO is over rated. I feel we would be far better off spending our money on elite mids or other positions if we can attract them. As St Kilda supporters we fall into the trap of 'hero worshipping' full forwards because of Locketts achievements. But Lockett never played in a winning GF team, teams are much better served having serviceable tall forwards and spreading the load across the entire zone.

I was watching Ben King on the weekend and he suffers from the exact same issues as Max. The ball had fallen 10 or 15 minutes away from a marking contest and Ben just stood and watched other players fight for the ball, he didnt even bother to walk over and be an option. That stuff does my head in, you can imagine what it does for his team mates when they are busting their arses to keep the ball inside 50. I dont think they are lazy they just dont have the ability to give back to back efforts and it is a major weakness in their game. Yes Ben has kicked 50 odd goals this year but what has his team done, Hawthorn traded in Mabor Chol cheaply last year and for me he provides a much better team contest than the Kings.

Caminiti, Sharman and Keeler should be our tall forwards into the future. If Hayes can get his body right and stay on the track he can add value as well. They are not as good over head as Max but offer so much more in other important aspects of their games. If you cant see how much better our forward line is functioning since Max has been injured, you know little about the game. Sharman, Membrey etc are playing their best footy of the year, our entries are better and we are kicking big scores spread across the entire team.
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He had nearly 100 shots a goal in his third full year.

Why are we trading out our full forward to build a more competitive midfield? A more competitive midfield would mean the ball is actually being won from stoppage and Max has space to lead into instead of building up from the back half and having a dense forward 50.

900k a year for a third tall defender or a #1 key forward. What are we doing here?
 
CursingFijian said:
I’m the opposite. I would much rather over pay Peatling than Macrae. Or Phillipou than Shiel.

And if no youth wants to come to Moorabin front end a Battle, King, Marshall, Wilkie or Steele. Make someone a Saint for life, and lug the war chest over to next year.

But don’t burn the money just for the sake of it.
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Doing what you are doing is the complete opposite to maintaining our cap space.

It is horrible to overpay some B or C grade player just to bring them in. You are then stuck with them.

Atleast taking a Macrae or a Shiel is a timed hit that we get out of in 12-24 months time.

Battle King etc will all be factored into what we are doing. They aren’t the issue.
 
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Captain Paddy said:
He had nearly 100 shots a goal in his third full year.

Why are we trading out our full forward to build a more competitive midfield? A more competitive midfield would mean the ball is actually being won from stoppage and Max has space to lead into instead of building up from the back half and having a dense forward 50.

900k a year for a third tall defender or a #1 key forward. What are we doing here?
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He had 100 shots on goals at what accuracy and at what other costs to the team? Its not just that it about what happens when Max grabs it, its about what happens when the other 70% of time when he doesnt. How often does his opponent mark the ball - he doesnt have the capacity to spoil, he adds nothing when the ball hits the ground and he offers nothing in forward pressure. He cant play in any other position and cant get up and down the ground as well as others. He has been injury prone his entire career and to hope that will change is 'pie in the sky stuff'.

We can see Clark is a limited player because of his running capacities but cant see why Max is so limited and the team is by far better off without him playing. Just ask yourself who would you want kicking for goals to win a game - Max would be last forward picked. It amazes me...
 
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SteeleSaints said:
I understand people are totally against my following proposal and it isnt going to occur but as a club I would much rather lose Max King for 2 x 1st round picks than Battle for 1. I would rather trade out King and get two early first rounders and build a more competitive midfield and forward line, than lose Josh.

Max still hasnt put together a consistent band of games and is being paid on potential and IMO is over rated. I feel we would be far better off spending our money on elite mids or other positions if we can attract them. As St Kilda supporters we fall into the trap of 'hero worshipping' full forwards because of Locketts achievements. But Lockett never played in a winning GF team, teams are much better served having serviceable tall forwards and spreading the load across the entire zone.

I was watching Ben King on the weekend and he suffers from the exact same issues as Max. The ball had fallen 10 or 15 minutes away from a marking contest and Ben just stood and watched other players fight for the ball, he didnt even bother to walk over and be an option. That stuff does my head in, you can imagine what it does for his team mates when they are busting their arses to keep the ball inside 50. I dont think they are lazy they just dont have the ability to give back to back efforts and it is a major weakness in their game. Yes Ben has kicked 50 odd goals this year but what has his team done, Hawthorn traded in Mabor Chol cheaply last year and for me he provides a much better team contest than the Kings.

Caminiti, Sharman and Keeler should be our tall forwards into the future. If Hayes can get his body right and stay on the track he can add value as well. They are not as good over head as Max but offer so much more in other important aspects of their games. If you cant see how much better our forward line is functioning since Max has been injured, you are not looking. Sharman, Membrey etc are playing their best footy of the year, our entries are better and we are kicking big scores spread across the entire team.
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Well I am going to be in the minority as well because I agree with this whole post including your observations on Ben King, my thoughts exactly while watching the Suns game on the weekend.

On Lockett, and messiah complexes. There was heartbreak when he left for Sydney. However within three years both Sydney and the Saints had both made grand finals. That either didn't win was unfortunate and both had chances. The point stands both teams in a trade for a huge star can massively benefit.

I think Battle is gone so I would go as far to say this year is ideal to trade King. We get picks say 5 and band1 6 for Battle say 10 and 18 for King, even split pick 6 and have 5 first round draft picks this year.

Battle is a big loss but he goes anyway. We can cover King and with one of the 5 picks select Jack Whitlock.
We then have coverage for when Membrey retires and have Caminiti, Sharman, and Whitlock as our young gun forwards.
Then we would still have 4 frdps to select as many mids as we like.
We have to be bold, rid ourselves of these notions of false messiahs and do this before Tassie comes in.
There would be a lot of gnashing of teeth and howling at the moon (and certain Whatsapp groups :D ) but 5 frdps, Cole Hoffman and Peckett and all the kids stockpiled over the past few drafts and we look at sustained (10 plus years) of success.
 
Sully111 said:
We've been in the wilderness far too long. It's time to be bold. I say we trade everyone on our list for picks.... then we just pick midfielders. Midfielders everywhere. We could get midfielders to cook the food at the club. Midfielder receptionist. If you sign up for a level 2 ultimate membership you get a free midfielder thrown in. There'll be too many to remember their names so we'll just call them MF1, MF2 etc. I can almost smell the flags that'll come our way.
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If Essendon came for Steele and Pick 25 in exchange for pick 9-10 would you take it?
 
Joffaboy said:
We have to be bold, rid ourselves of these notions of false messiahs and do this before Tassie comes in.
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The biggest messiah on this board at the moment are the unknown elite, first round draft picks thats going to come and save the midfield for the next decade.

Let's trade everyone so we can draft as many messiahs as possible.
 

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BrutThough said:
The biggest messiah on this board at the moment are the unknown elite, first round draft picks thats going to come and save the midfield for the next decade.

Let's trade everyone so we can draft as many messiahs as possible.
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Incorrect, they are potential. St.Kilda supporters have traditionally hung their hat on individuals, because the team as a whole was so rubbish
Barks
Lockett
Nicky
Roo
Lenny
These are the recent messiahs. Now we have the cult of King.

I think people believe that when someone makes the suggestion to trade someone like King it is because they believe he is no good. This is not true at all King is a fine player and would command two frdps for a trade.
It is in my case, the belief that our midfield has been bottom 6 in the league for a decade and is no getting any better. We need a whole crop of top rated midfielders to compete.
Now we can't get free F/S's midfielders like Daicos's or Ashcroft's, or key position like the Darcy's, all are off limits.
We can't get the best NGA midfielders from GC, Brisbane, Sydney or GWS as they get them for peppercorn rent.
If a fantastic kid comes out of our NGA we can't bid on him until after pick 40 so we missout and one of the above F/S NGA's charity cheats can use their unused frdp to take our NGA if they like.
We can't get a slew of top range midfielders with one frdp. We came 7th last year and our first pick was pick 18.
Tassie comes in in 2027 so we have two drafts to load up before it is compromised for god knows how long.

The fact is that because of the AFL and its fraudulent compromised and totally corrupt draft system we have no other way of competing for the nations youngest and best other than trading a player with currency.

We can cover King with Coops, Hammer and Membrey next season. Draft a Whitlock and keep developing Keeler, trade in another ruck and use Rohan forward more.

What we can't cover and what we need a whole raft of is top quality young mids. I think it is generally accepted our mids are our vunerability.

So with all the limitations outlined above, and with Tassie set to compromise the draft once more in two years, can an alternative strategy be explained to me how we get frdp's and high quality mids into our system to develop?
 
Joffaboy said:
Incorrect, they are potential. St.Kilda supporters have traditionally hung their hat on individuals, because the team as a whole was so rubbish
Barks
Lockett
Nicky
Roo
Lenny
These are the recent messiahs. Now we have the cult of King.

I think people believe that when someone makes the suggestion to trade someone like King it is because they believe he is no good. This is not true at all King is a fine player and would command two frdps for a trade.
It is in my case, the belief that our midfield has been bottom 6 in the league for a decade and is no getting any better. We need a whole crop of top rated midfielders to compete.
Now we can't get free F/S's midfielders like Daicos's or Ashcroft's, or key position like the Darcy's, all are off limits.
We can't get the best NGA midfielders from GC, Brisbane, Sydney or GWS as they get them for peppercorn rent.
If a fantastic kid comes out of our NGA we can't bid on him until after pick 40 so we missout and one of the above F/S NGA's charity cheats can use their unused frdp to take our NGA if they like.
We can't get a slew of top range midfielders with one frdp. We came 7th last year and our first pick was pick 18.
Tassie comes in in 2027 so we have two drafts to load up before it is compromised for god knows how long.

The fact is that because of the AFL and its fraudulent compromised and totally corrupt draft system we have no other way of competing for the nations youngest and best other than trading a player with currency.

We can cover King with Coops, Hammer and Membrey next season. Draft a Whitlock and keep developing Keeler, trade in another ruck and use Rohan forward more.

What we can't cover and what we need a whole raft of is top quality young mids. I think it is generally accepted our mids are our vunerability.

So with all the limitations outlined above, and with Tassie set to compromise the draft once more in two years, can an alternative strategy be explained to me how we get frdp's and high quality mids into our system to develop?
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"we need to get rid of King and stop having messiahs"

"we need first round draft picks so they can save us for the next decade"
 
BrutThough said:
"we need to get rid of King and stop having messiahs"

"we need first round draft picks so they can save us for the next decade"
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Where in the post you quoted did I say that?

So i take it you can't address the points I made re F/S, NGA's us unable to take high class NGA's and Tassie coming in to the comp?

Maybe address my opinion our midfield is poor and we need to get as many quality players in? That would be great.

How about suggesting an alternative to getting high dp's bearing in mind the limitations outlined above?
Would be interested in your thoughts on the above and the context of the post you quoted. Would be a good discussion I think.
 
Joffaboy said:
Where in what you quoted did I say that?

So i take it you can't address the points I made re F/S, NGA's us unable to take high class NGA's and Tassie coming in to the comp.

Maybe address my opinion our midfield is poor and we need to get as many quality players in.

How about suggesting an alternative to getting high dp's bearing in mind the limitations outlined above.
Would be interested in your thoughts on the above and the context of the post you quoted. Would be a good discussion I think.
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Pushing the notion that we need to trade our good players to stock up on first round draft pick in this draft as the only way forward and way dominate for the next decade is already assigning this picks a messiah complex. And it's funny to do that after complaining about people assigning that messiah title to other players.

I hope I spelled that out as basic as possible for you.
 
I agree with Steelesaints and JB. Max King shows all the signs of being a very over rated player. He’s been touted as a once in a generation forward but there’s not very much evidence of that coming to fruition. Okay he’s 23, could still develop into the gun we’ve all been hoping for, but : he’s physically fragile, a very unreliable shot for goal and his second efforts and impact when the ball is in dispute or we don’t have it is minimal.

If we could load up on 1rdp’s I’d do it.
 
BrutThough said:
Pushing the notion that we need to trade our good players to stock up on first round draft pick in this draft as the only way forward and way dominate for the next decade is already assigning this picks a messiah complex. And it's funny to do that after complaining about people assigning that messiah title to other players.

I hope I spelled that out as basic as possible for you.
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Exactly he is a good player not our most important player. Clubs like ours have to make tough decisions to improve, plenty of clubs have done it before us and gone on to acheive sucess - Richmond - Delidio, Collingwood - Grundy. In any event lets not get bent out of shape because the club have decided he is part of their future. It doesnt mean we all have to agree with it!
 
Josh battle 28 disposals at 82% efficiency. 10 intercept marks. 5 score involvements.

I think we are understating the hole he will leave.
 
SteeleSaints said:
Exactly he is a good player not our most important player. Clubs like ours have to make tough decisions to improve, plenty of clubs have done it before us and gone on to acheive sucess - Richmond - Delidio, Collingwood - Grundy. In any event lets not get bent out of shape because the club have decided he is part of their future. It doesnt mean we all have to agree with it!
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doesn't mean we have to keep hearing trade King neither.

give you the tip, won't be happening

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StCicatriz said:
Josh battle 28 disposals at 82% efficiency. 10 intercept marks. 5 score involvements.

I think we are understating the hole he will leave.
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He's getting better with every game at the moment. Watching him run around for the Hawks will really hurt. Replacing him pretty much impossible, we will need to get very creative. And absolutely have to nail the pick.
 
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