Australia vs India First Test - Adelaide Oval - Dec 9 - Dec 13

[The Passenger]

South Africa of the 70's would have been an insane team.

Not sure of the top of my head how many of them would still have been around and at their peak in the mid to late 70's when the West Indies really started to fire up, but I think most of the South Africans would have still be playing good cricket. Would have been epic battles.

 

[Gough]

South Africa of the 70's would have been an insane team.

Not sure of the top of my head how many of them would still have been around and at their peak in the mid to late 70's when the West Indies really started to fire up, but I think most of the South Africans would have still be playing good cricket. Would have been epic battles.

Walters/Marsh versus Graeme Pollock drinking competition would have been would have been world class too.

 

[sherb]

Yet another reason to hate Apartheid, it deprived us of potentially one of the greatest teams of all time. Add to that 69/70 side, Rice, van Byl, Kevin McKenzie, Denys Hobson, Jimmy Cook, and le Roux as well as giving Barry Richards the chance to play at the peak of his career, it could have been one of the great teams of the the seventies. Guys like Greig, Lamb, Smith, and Wessels would have probably have stayed in the country too, it's a great cricket sliding doors story.

There's another one.

First class record - 26331 runs at 40.95, 930 wickets at 22.49.

Didn't play a single test match.

 

[Gough]

There's another one.

First class record - 26331 runs at 40.95, 930 wickets at 22.49.

Didn't play a single test match.

Captained the first one day internationals against India and that was it. Screw you Vorster.

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

I would definitely put Botham in the genuine all rounder category.

 

[Gough]

I would definitely put Botham in the genuine all rounder category.

Played League football for Scampaignerhorpe United too.

 

[Gough]

Played League football for Scampaignerhorpe United too.

That's Sc unthorpe United and also very funny.

 

[Pera]

Good call bro

Thanks brudda

 

[franjon]

Brilliant exhibition for test match cricket.

Feel for India a little, but we deserved it more in the end. Beautiful bowling by Lyon all day, all match in fact.

If India have any sense at all, they will retain Kohli as captain instead of the defensive Dhoni

I don't feel for India, at all. Do you think they'd feel for us if the situation's were reversed? On that pitch any half decent bowling attck would be lucky to bowl out a side once. Australia did it twice, a good batting side and on a pitch that suited them.

 

[sherb]

On the all-rounder thing, to be a "true" all-rounder at test level (ie perform as both a specialist batsman and bowler) is all but impossible in my view.

People mention Sobers and his test bowling average of 34. I'd argue that if he had batted at number 9 (ie he wasn't so busy averaging nearly 60 with the bat) and played solely as a bowler, that his bowling average would have been miles lower. He was certainly quick enough and could swing the ball - let alone the fact he could also bowl orthodox and chinamen at a quality level.

On the other hand, someone like Hadlee had tremendous ability with the bat. But he bowled so much at test level that it was all but impossible for his true batting ability to flourish.

And then you get those who have the ability with both bat and ball but focus so much on one area of their game that the other gets neglected. I'd put someone like Warne in this category. He rarely applied himself with the bat to the extent that he only averaged 17 (?) at test level. On ability and eye he should have been averaging well into the 20s in my view.

So when discussing all-rounders I think you have to make allowances for how difficult it is to perform consistently at Test level to both the level of a specialist bowler and a specialist batsman.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Ravi Ashwin? He should be playing in these tests.

Nope. Averages over 64 outside of India.

All but 12 of his 107 test wickets are in India. Relies on the assistance he gets from Indian pitches.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

On the all-rounder thing, to be a "true" all-rounder at test level (ie perform as both a specialist batsman and bowler) is all but impossible in my view.

People mention Sobers and his test bowling average of 34. I'd argue that if he had batted at number 9 (ie he wasn't so busy averaging nearly 60 with the bat) and played solely as a bowler, that his bowling average would have been miles lower. He was certainly quick enough and could swing the ball - let alone the fact he could also bowl orthodox and chinamen at a quality level.

On the other hand, someone like Hadlee had tremendous ability with the bat. But he bowled so much at test level that it was all but impossible for his true batting ability to flourish.

And then you get those who have the ability with both bat and ball but focus so much on one area of their game that the other gets neglected. I'd put someone like Warne in this category. He rarely applied himself with the bat to the extent that he only averaged 17 (?) at test level. On ability and eye he should have been averaging well into the 20s in my view.

So when discussing all-rounders I think you have to make allowances for how difficult it is to perform at Test level to both the level of a specialist bowler and a specialist batsman.

I'd argue the best 'true' allrounder was Kallis.

 

[Gough]

George Giffen is still the only Australian with 10 000 runs and a 1000 wickets at first class level, but if your talking that era, Grace's first class record is also pretty impressive.

 

[frankrizzo]

Nope. Averages over 64 outside of India.

All but 12 of his 107 test wickets are in India. Relies on the assistance he gets from Indian pitches.

Ashwin started poorly overseas but considering how ordinary his replacements have also done outside india i think he deserves another shot, lets remember he has only got 6 tests outside india it's not enough imo to write him off forever.

As a bonus he is also one of the best number 8's in test cricket, in our conditions i would actually back him to do better than dhoni with the bat.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

Yeah, he got a bit of a rough deal then. He wasn't great in India, but he was better than most of the side. Probably a casualty of the selectors wanting to stick with Watson as the allrounder. If Henriques wasn't required as a fifth bowler, at the time there were batsmen with a better claim on the top six.

My opinion at the end of the India tour was that they should have dumped Watson and stuck with Henriques. Maybe a bit of short-term pain while he grew into a fully-fledged Test batsman, but he had a ton of potential.

Now Marsh has matured a bit, unless something goes seriously wrong with him it's hard to see Henriques getting much of a look-in. So much of Test selection is about timing, unfortunately - just look at Andrew McDonald.

I thought they should have stuck with him too. He got the rough end of the stick there. He hasn't helped himself by not performing in one day matches when he's been chosen for Aus. He's been thoroughly anonymous with the bat, whereas both Marsh and Faulks have shone in the past year or so. Unfortunately, that does make a difference to our selectors.

Marsh also looks like he's got something about him. My big worry with him is that he won't got on with it very often. He hasn't shown any propensity to make big scores in the Shield.

Still, there's always Dan Christian in the wings too.

 

[The Passenger]

Agree with sherb. Pretty much not possible to be good enough in both disciplines, and to have that expectation of someone is silly.

People always talk about batting all rounders - It would be good to have someone who can average 40 and take 3 wickets a test.

Yeah that would be good. But 3 wickets a test is not far from what specialist bowlers take. It's an unrealistic hope, but they way some people say it, it's like they just expect an all rounder to roll into the team and do this.

An all rounder does however need to be good enough to warrant a spot in at least one of their specialities IMO. If they're a batting all rounder I could cop an all rounder not in the top six batsmen in the country, but they should really be in the top ten or thereabouts and not too much of a downgrade on whoever was considered the sixth best batsmen. With your bowling you pick your best four bowlers, and if one happens to be able to average close to 30 or a little bit higher then that is great. You don't weaken your bowling to have a good number eight batsmen. Almost all of the time you'll need 20 wickets to win a test match.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Ashwin started poorly overseas but considering how ordinary his replacements have also done outside india i think he deserves another shot, lets remember he has only got 6 tests outside india it's not enough imo to write him off forever.

As a bonus he is also one of the best number 8's in test cricket, in our conditions i would actually back him to do better than dhoni with the bat.

Maybe. Just don't think he's going to get too many wickets.

Just watched some highlights of him again. The assistance he gets from low slow spinning tracks is substantial (no DRS helps him, some questionable lbw decisions).

Don't think he'd be overly successful here, or in SA or England for that matter.

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

Played League football for Scampaignerhorpe United too.

Plus he captained the team too of course. An all rounder in every sense of the word it would seem. I always think of him as an 1980's Pommy version of Keith Miller, he was something of a ladies man as well (to put it politely!).

 

[happy_eagle]

 

[sherb]

George Giffen is still the only Australian with 10 000 runs and a 1000 wickets at first class level, but if your talking that era, Grace's first class record is also pretty impressive.

Or this bloke, who I mentioned earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Rhodes

 

[Borisdog]

We've got a couple of clear liabilities in the side at the moment that demonstrate how critical injuries really are.

For example, does anyone believe Siddle would still be in the side if either Pattinson or Cummins were fit and ready to go? He's still there because the rest out there in shield world aren't much better. I can't believe Starc is an improvement on Siddle and do we really need 2 left arm quicks in the same side?

Watson and Rogers are both only just surviving IMO, but only because there is little that stands out as replacements. We can toss around alternatives as much as we like but someone in the shield ranks has to stand up an make their claim difficult to deny in order for us to punt Watson or Rogers. I'd punt Watson in a heartbeat - I've never rated him, but who else is there realistically? In truth if M Marsh performs well enough from here on the Watson's place should go to a specialist batsman.

 

[frankrizzo]

Maybe. Just don't think he's going to get too many wickets.

Just watched some highlights of him again. The assistance he gets from low slow spinning tracks is substantial (no DRS helps him, some questionable lbw decisions).

Don't think he'd be overly successful here, or in SA or England for that matter.

I agree he won't run through us on these tracks but i just don't think india have a spinner who will so thats why i would give ashwin another go at least that way they get a quality bat(he seemed to have no issues with our bounce 3 years ago).

if the alternatives are karn sharma and jadeja i don't think ashwin would be that big a risk to take.

 

[Ron]

India should have played Ashwin over Sharma at Adelaide, the state of the pitch the last couple of days would have helped him. I'd probably play Ashwin in Sydney as well, but i doubt he will be much good in Brisbane or at the G.

 

[King Elvis]

What a great day of cricket. Probably the best I've seen live.

Great work from Lyons - I feel like me and my drunk mates got him over the line by singing 'In the jungle the mighty jungle' to fire him up.

We've got some problems though.

Siddle is cooked. Can't possibly be selected for the next Test (what did he bowl second innings; 9 overs?).

Rogers gets one more Test to perform.

Watson the same.

HADDIN should be dropped.

Harris looked to be labouring.

 

[chargers 09]

Walters/Marsh versus Graeme Pollock drinking competition would have been would have been world class too.

Graeme could hold a drink could he? Pretty Shaun was a teetotaller?