2nd Test Border Gavaskar Trophy December 6-10 1430hrs @ Adelaide Oval

[PhatBoy]

Look what you did with your independence though. White Australia, stolen generations, the aluminium bat, rugby ****ing league

Unless Huddersfield has magically defected to New South Wales I think you’ll find you invented rugby league.

And in doing so invented a far f**king better version of the disgraceful code that came before it anyway. Be proud of your achievement, north of England.

 

[sabso]

Unless Huddersfield has magically defected to New South Wales I think you’ll find you invented rugby league.

And in doing so invented a far f**king better version of the disgraceful code that came before it anyway. Be proud of your achievement, north of England.

Hard disagree phat, not in the mood for a game of pigeon chess today.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Imagine telling Lillee, McGrath, Gillespie etc they have to have a rest after 2 Tests

With large breaks between those tests. Meanwhile the above would play 10 days out of 12 at times.

 

[Rookie]

I thought I wanted more from Alex Carey's batting when I read an earlier post quoting the top 7 batting averages, and he was on 27. Maybe that's for the last year or something but I looked it up and he's actually got 31.35 average.

That compares pretty well with our best wicket keeper batsmen of all time

Healy is heaps lower than what I thought. Gilchrist a complete freak, and Haddin probably the next best.

But Carey is such a good looking batsman, although aesthetics are irrelevant, I feel like he should be constructing some bigger scores.

Certainly he's better technically than Haddin and Healy, probably closer to Tim Paine.

Australian top 10 Test run scorers among wicketkeepers
Adam Gilchrist: 5570 runs @ 47.60, 96 Tests.
Ian Healy: 4356 runs @ 27.39, 119 Tests.
Rod Marsh: 3633 runs @ 26.51, 96 Tests.
Brad Haddin: 3266 runs @ 32.98, 66 Tests.
Matthew Wade: 1613 runs @ 29.87, 36 Tests.
Tim Paine: 1534 runs @ 32.63, 35 Tests

Carey was in cracking form in the Shield so we should expect some good results from him over the BGS.

My take on Carey - I actually think he's more of a middle order bat, which is where he's flourished for South Australia. I don't think he's that great batting with the tail.

If Webster came in for Marsh I'd love to see Carey at 6 and Webster at 7. Webster always looks to be an absolute stud batting with the tail (although Tassie seem to play a fair few bowling all-rounders, which helps) while I always feel like Carey struggles to find the right momentum when wickets are falling at the other end or when he feels he needs to hit out. He's a naturally attacking strokemaker IMO and would be perfectly suited at 5. He gets inside his own head too much at 7.

I always felt Carey batted better when he came in up the order in ODIs as well.

 

[the_interloper]

At the time of their careers Marsh and Healys averages were very good for a wicket keeper.

I think Carey is batting to his ability at test level. A handy keeper/bat .

Gilchrist stuffed it up for all the keeper bats after him with how good he was. Brad Haddin's ability with the stick was underappreciated as a result, in any other era he would have been a stand out.

 

[PhatBoy]

Gilchrist stuffed it up for all the keeper bats after him with how good he was. Brad Haddin's ability with the stick was underappreciated as a result, in any other era he would have been a stand out.

Haddin was a very clean striker but his career was more or less carried by waiting to get back home and play England and New Zealand

 

[HirdsTheWord]

At the time of their careers Marsh and Healys averages were very good for a wicket keeper.

I think Carey is batting to his ability at test level. A handy keeper/bat .

Gilchrist set an unattainable bar for future wicket keepers lol

 

[big_e]

With large breaks between those tests. Meanwhile the above would play 10 days out of 12 at times.

Lillee and Gillespie both missed huge chunks of cricket through injury. Probably not the best examples....

 

[JimmyBC]

Speaking of Gilchrist the Australian side of that era was scoring at a fair clip, from bazball carry on to the T20 influence on test cricket being talked at ad nauseam it's a bit amusing.

 

[Pistol Night]

Lillee and Gillespie both missed huge chunks of cricket through injury. Probably not the best examples....

Ok insert other players names that would of laughed at being told to rest

 

[PhatBoy]

Speaking of Gilchrist the Australian side of that era was scoring at a fair clip, from bazball carry on to the T20 influence on test cricket being talked at ad nauseam it's a bit amusing.

England under McCullum score at 4.61 in test cricket.

Under Ricky Ponting Australia scored at 3.52 and about 3.6 under Waugh.

Debate the impact of T20 on ‘rising run rates’ across the board etc, that’s fine. But in the period they’ve used the tactic, the next fastest scoring team is India who score at - wait for it - 3.6.

At some stage people are going to stop looking down their noses at it and trying to excuse it away as something that’s just rehashing ‘what so and so did.’

 

[JimmyBC]

England under McCullum score at 4.61 in test cricket.

Under Ricky Ponting Australia scored at 3.52 and about 3.6 under Waugh.

Debate the impact of T20 on ‘rising run rates’ across the board etc, that’s fine. But in the period they’ve used the tactic, the next fastest scoring team is India who score at - wait for it - 3.6.

At some stage people are going to stop looking down their noses at it and trying to excuse it away as something that’s just rehashing ‘what so and so did.’

So are you saying it's just glazed memories of Gilchrist, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Lara etc. boonta moments & there's no series from back when where runrates are in a similar territory?

T20 has had an influence I'm sure I just reckon I saw reverse sweeps & ramps on occasion 20 years ago.

 

[Cuzz09]

is Bazball Richmond chaos ball?

Teams copy but u need Dusty





Sent from my SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Around the Wicket]

England are scoring fast but there really only winning series there expected to.

 

[PhatBoy]

So are you saying it's just glazed memories of Gilchrist, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Lara etc. boonta moments & there's no series from back when where runrates are in a similar territory?

T20 has had an influence I'm sure I just reckon I saw reverse sweeps & ramps on occasion 20 years ago.

That’s like saying ‘because Kapil Dev took Zimbabwe on an unrequested of Tunbridge Wells with no lube in 1983 at the World Cup during his freak 170-odd, T20 isn’t really a new thing.’


How is these things happening in isolation from individual players even close to a team going 34 consecutive tests scoring at a run rate 30 per cent higher than the most aggressive side in the history of cricket?



Adam Gilchrist is, to me, the second best player behind Shane Warne in what is at worst the second best team of all time.


Brian Lara is my favourite cricketer full stop of all time.

If you look at highest run rates in series, and exclude the likes of Ireland, Afghanistan, excommunicated Zimbabwe, and early years Bangladesh:

1. England vs Pakistan 2022 - 5.5
2. England vs NZ 2024 - 5.18
3. India vs Bangladesh 2024 - 5.04
4. England vs Australia 2023 - 4.74
5. England vs WI 2024 - 4.73
6. England vs NZ 2022-23 - 4.73
7. Australia vs WI 2015-16 - 4.6
8. NZ vs Bangladesh 2018-19 - 4.6
9. England vs Pakistan 2024 - 4.6
10. England vs NZ 2022 - 4.55



There’s a couple of times Australia and SA feature beating up on Zimbabwe at 4.6/4.7 in the mid 2000s and England doing the same to Bangladesh in 2005 but that was it.

Suggesting that because periodically a few players could thrash runs quickly, a team doing this is not new or pushing the boundaries is pretty short sighted.

Using that logic you could say that because George Bonnor crushed a lightning fast hundred 130 years ago, or Gilbert Jessop smoked a ball into the gasometer at the Oval, T20 hasn’t really progressed the game at all.

 

[JimmyBC]

That’s like saying ‘because Kapil Dev took Zimbabwe on an unrequested of Tunbridge Wells with no lube in 1983 at the World Cup during his freak 170-odd, T20 isn’t really a new thing.’


How is these things happening in isolation from individual players even close to a team going 34 consecutive tests scoring at a run rate 30 per cent higher than the most aggressive side in the history of cricket?



Adam Gilchrist is, to me, the second best player behind Shane Warne in what is at worst the second best team of all time.


Brian Lara is my favourite cricketer full stop of all time.

If you look at highest run rates in series, and exclude the likes of Ireland, Afghanistan, excommunicated Zimbabwe, and early years Bangladesh:

1. England vs Pakistan 2022 - 5.5
2. England vs NZ 2024 - 5.18
3. India vs Bangladesh 2024 - 5.04
4. England vs Australia 2023 - 4.74
5. England vs WI 2024 - 4.73
6. England vs NZ 2022-23 - 4.73
7. Australia vs WI 2015-16 - 4.6
8. NZ vs Bangladesh 2018-19 - 4.6
9. England vs Pakistan 2024 - 4.6
10. England vs NZ 2022 - 4.55



There’s a couple of times Australia and SA feature beating up on Zimbabwe at 4.6/4.7 in the mid 2000s and England doing the same to Bangladesh in 2005 but that was it.

Suggesting that because periodically a few players could thrash runs quickly, a team doing this is not new or pushing the boundaries is pretty short sighted.

Using that logic you could say that because George Bonnor crushed a lightning fast hundred 130 years ago, or Gilbert Jessop smoked a ball into the gasometer at the Oval, T20 hasn’t really progressed the game at all.

Well this is why I've engaged the help of the caribbean stallion of stats to clue me up, all I've gleaned is it's a sustained team tactic not a ground breaking evolution. I mean we have opposition players to England rolling their eyes every time bazball is mentioned or entering published vernacular.

 

[JackOutback]

I'm not giving Bazball the credit you are; sure, they supercharged the kind of scoring Australia did in the past but without the restraint or common sense to know it's not always appropriate, which is why they are far less successful than Australia was. It's not genius cricket, it's actually a bit stupid to play one way regardless of the circumstances/conditions.

 

[Pistol Night]

Well this is why I've engaged the help of the caribbean stallion of stats to clue me up, all I've gleaned is it's a sustained team tactic not a ground breaking evolution. I mean we have opposition players to England rolling their eyes every time bazball is mentioned or entering published vernacular.

The way they play is awesome. Its just it being labelled "Bazball" when the Poms are usually boring flogs makes people dislike the whole concept

 

[PhatBoy]

Well this is why I've engaged the help of the caribbean stallion of stats to clue me up, all I've gleaned is it's a sustained team tactic not a ground breaking evolution. I mean we have opposition players to England rolling their eyes every time bazball is mentioned or entering published vernacular.

Well the game is 147 years old at test level. There is literally no tactic that will be “completely” ground breaking

All there is left to do is alter them to varying degrees on an individual or team level. But it is fair to say, and figures back it up, that no team has ever played a style, where they attack with the bat from start to finish basically come hell or high water. It’s just a fact and it’s borne out over 34 test matches now.


Saying ‘but Sehwag batted that way’ doesn’t disprove that England are doing something different: Sehwag batted with Akash Chopra and Gautam Gambhir and Rahul Dravid, Wasim Jaffer and Murali Vijay as his opening partners so yes it worked for him and made him a formidable batsman but the carnage at his end wasn’t being matched by the rest of his team

 

[PhatBoy]

I'm not giving Bazball the credit you are; sure, they supercharged the kind of scoring Australia did in the past but without the restraint or common sense to know it's not always appropriate, which is why they are far less successful than Australia was. It's not genius cricket, it's actually a bit stupid to play one way regardless of the circumstances/conditions.

What credit am I giving it?

Saying something hasn’t been done on a particular scale before isn’t saying it is the most successful thing ever.

No team has assembled an ‘army’ of medium pacers like NZ’s production line from the 80s into the 90s before but I’m not about to claim it was the bee’s knees of tactics.

What IS undeniable however and it is just plain ignorance to dismiss it, is that it has given England a fighting chance in matches and series that they probably wouldn’t have otherwise had.

In those 34 matches they have played under that style, they have won 22 of them.

In Australia’s last 34 matches, they have won 21. Australia have won a world test championship in that time.

Both sides have had a few easy kills, both have had a tour to India, England with an extra game. England got a freebie against Ireland but Australia dropped what you would have thought would be a freebie against the West Indies. England have had a couple of cracks in NZ and are so far 3-1 there.

It’s a GOOD, not great record. Where it costs them is in defeats as they’ve only had one draw that whole time. Australia has had five I think.


The bottom line is that they are a cricket nation not blessed with an abundance of world class players now that Anderson and broad have moved on, they’ve struggled to fill the middle order and top order holes in the time after Strauss, Pietersen and Cook have all gone with only Root consistently providing runs batting the ‘old’ way.

So they’ve found a way that at least makes them competitive so good luck to them I say.

 

[Voice of the G]

The bloke wanted to make 5 changes after the 1st test, dead set clown, he's bad enough on that AFL show with Robbo

Quite a few on BF wanted to make multiple changes as well.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Quite a few on BF wanted to make multiple changes as well.

True, but not the whole lineup. Though replacing Smith isn't the worst idea, just not with another AR.

 

[Bedi]

Well the game is 147 years old at test level. There is literally no tactic that will be “completely” ground breaking

All there is left to do is alter them to varying degrees on an individual or team level. But it is fair to say, and figures back it up, that no team has ever played a style, where they attack with the bat from start to finish basically come hell or high water. It’s just a fact and it’s borne out over 34 test matches now.


Saying ‘but Sehwag batted that way’ doesn’t disprove that England are doing something different: Sehwag batted with Akash Chopra and Gautam Gambhir and Rahul Dravid, Wasim Jaffer and Murali Vijay as his opening partners so yes it worked for him and made him a formidable batsman but the carnage at his end wasn’t being matched by the rest of his team

i reckon opening the batting with tailenders to take off the new ball shine is something we've never seen before. I wouldn't open with bunnies but someone like Starc and Cummins could have its merits.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

i reckon opening the batting with tailenders to take off the new ball shine is something we've never seen before. I wouldn't open with bunnies but someone like Starc and Cummins could have its merits.

Doing so just increases the chance that your designated batsmen get stranded at the end of the innings. You have Cummins and Starc open and someone like a Head, Marsh or Carey are likely to get stuck at the crease with room in the tank. They're now coming in at 7, 8 or 9, and are only a wicket or two away from the innings over.

 

[Pistol Night]

i reckon opening the batting with tailenders to take off the new ball shine is something we've never seen before. I wouldn't open with bunnies but someone like Starc and Cummins could have its merits.

I remember Tubby telling the story that McGrath was talking a bit of shit about how the batsman have an easy job after they skittled a team for 130 or something in a one dayer so he told him to put the pads on and he can go in at 3. He said he was serious and would of done it. Imagine the crowd if big Pidge rolled out at number 3.