Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

You can't help yourself. You blaming the US is your excuse for Ukrainians rejecting Russia and it's attempts by Putin to impose fascism on Ukraine. You just don't get why Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia, see themselves as a democratic European nation. Ukraine's future is similar to the Baltics & Poland and you can't stand the fact that Russia isn't welcome or involved and is a disgraced international fascist pariah state.

Just like in WW2 Ukranian soldiers are fighting against fascists in Kursk supplied by the US. Funny how history repeats itself.

You have your right to your opinion but you don't have the right to your own facts.

This may be a bit of a shock to you over at the internet research agency.

No one has the "right to their own facts". Facts are not the property of anyone. they are objective.
Neither you nor i own "the facts". The facts exist independently of you or me...the only question is...how does one gain access to the facts?

Not sure how you don't understand yet that I regard Putin as equally criminal as Zelensky. Your attempts to portray me a supporter of Putin are just plain tedious.

 

[IlovethePies]

Lets not forhet that it was the Soviet Union that got into bed with the Nazi's at the begining of the 2nd world war.

Let;s not forget that the Soviet Union suffered 28 million deaths in order to defeat Hitler.
the US and Britain only decided to intervene when they could see that the Red Army had won.

 

[jatz14]

Unfortunately, your comment is ill informed. Yes, Zelensky won the election. But he rapidly fell in line with the pro-NATO orientation of the Ukrainian ruling elite.

Your denial that the Zelensky regime both contains fascists and condones fascism will ultimiately make you look stupid or - in the best possible case - just a sucker for US propaganda.

I have made clear that I utterly oppose Putin, who heads a criminal regime that defends the interests of a super wealthy elite.

Never seems to sink in on this thread though, unfortunately.

What so many here fail to understand is that you can actually condemn Zelensky without supporting Putin.

It is not a binary situation. Both regimes are criminal, both regimes are sending the youth and the workers of Ukraine and Russia to die in a war being waged for the profit interests of US corporations and their Ukrainian and European capitalist sidekicks vs those of the Russian capitalists.

Maybe one day, as the truth filters through (it always does), those trapped in a binary thought loop will start to find a way to get out of the infinite loop.

He CAMPAIGNED to align with the West. People voted for him to ALIGN with the West.

So, what your smarmy ill informed little post is actually saying is. Yes, Zelensky won the election, but he then rapidly implemented the policies he was elected to implement, instead of turning his back on the people and bending his and Ukraines arse for Putin to ream, like the good little puppet Putin, and you, wanted as head of state in Ukraine.

 

[IlovethePies]

He CAMPAIGNED to align with the West. People voted for him to ALIGN with the West.

So, what your smarmy ill informed little post is actually saying is. Yes, Zelensky won the election, but he then rapidly implemented the policies he was elected to implement, instead of turning his back on the people and bending his and Ukraines arse for Putin to ream, like the good little puppet Putin, and you, wanted as head of state in Ukraine.

No one, in the election was asked if they agreed with the NATO program of war against Russia.

 

[Chief]

No one, in the election was asked if they agreed with the NATO program of war against Russia.

I know, the way they were dressed, Ukraine was asking for it.

 

[Mobbs]

No one, in the election was asked if they agreed with the NATO program of war against Russia.

View attachment thewarwearetryingtostop.mp4

 

[Zidane98]

Let;s not forget that the Soviet Union suffered 28 million deaths in order to defeat Hitler.
the US and Britain only decided to intervene when they could see that the Red Army had won.

Let's not forget the only reason that Hitler attacked USSR was because Stalin did a deal to give him Poland in exchange for the Baltics. Out of those 28 million deaths approximately 15 million were suffered by Belarus & Ukraine. Despite their population accounting for approximately 35-40m out of the 170m population of the USSR at the time. This is only shortly after your leaders starved millions of Ukranians to death in the 1930s.

And let's not forget that the only way the USSR was able to defeat Hitler was with the biggest lend lease military supply program of all time courtesy of the USA.

This is happening again with Ukraine fighting against a fascist aggressor (Russia) supplied by the US but also this time most of the free world. I know you are probably not allowed to ask this question where you live but you must surely wonder why the only allies Putin has are human rights abusing dictatorships. I'm sure you know why but aren't allowed to say so, we understand.


Face it tovarisch - Ukraine is better off without Russia interfering with it. It's what the people of Ukraine want and that is all that matters - not what Putin decides.

 

[Saint]

Let;s not forget that the Soviet Union suffered 28 million deaths in order to defeat Hitler.
the US and Britain only decided to intervene when they could see that the Red Army had won.

The Soviet Union in WW2 is in the exact position of Ukraine. Ill-equipped to fight a more dominant neighbour, but relied on funding and supplies from the west to turn back the aggressors.

What do you mean "only decided to intervene"? The UK (and Australia) were at war the whole time, longer than Russia who made a treaty with Germany after they started WW2.

 

[Rob R]

Your interpretation of WW2 history is bizarre...no I won't be euphemistic...Your interpretation of this history is utterly false.

The Red Army defeated Hitler, no sane/well informed person would disagree.

It was Chiang Kai -shek and the KMT - not the CCP - which pursued the policy of appeasement to Japan. For 6 years, from 1931 to 1937, Chaing Kai-shek attempted to destroy the CCP militarily. In other words, he placed the priority not on defending China against the brutal Japanese invasion, but on destroying the "internal enemy", ie the CCP.

Next tim

Way to completely ignore inconvenient facts. Stalin did a deal with Hitler to jointly invade Poland and get free access to attack Finland, seize Romanian land. He provided critical resources to Hitler until the Germnas attacked him despite many warnings that the attack was coming . . That is clear collaboration.

The CCP and Nationalists fought a violent civil war till 37 when Japan attacked in full force rather than smaller skirmishes. After that, the CCP mostly hid in the hills to converse their strength whilst assassinating nationalist leaders (who were far from good people either), attacking chinese militia groups that didnt join the CCP, raping young girls (Maos favourite past time) and letting the incredibly brave Chinese people and Nationalist government win the war. All because Mao wanted power more than he wanted the Chinese people to win.

At least Stalin unlike Mao fought once Russia was attacked.

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[jatz14]

No one, in the election was asked if they agreed with the NATO program of war against Russia.

They weren't asked if they agreed with the government being run by lizard men either.

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[jatz14]

Way to completely ignore inconvenient facts. Stalin did a deal with Hitler to jointly invade Poland and get free access to attack Finland, seize Romanian land. He provided critical resources to Hitler until the Germnas attacked him despite many warnings that the attack was coming . . That is clear collaboration.

The CCP and Nationalists fought a violent civil war till 37 when Japan attacked in full force rather than smaller skirmishes. After that, the CCP mostly hid in the hills to converse their strength whilst assassinating nationalist leaders (who were far from good people either), attacking chinese militia groups that didnt join the CCP, raping young girls (Maos favourite past time) and letting the incredibly brave Chinese people and Nationalist government win the war. All because Mao wanted power more than he wanted the Chinese people to win.

At least Stalin unlike Mao fought once Russia was attacked.

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This guy is off with the fairies. The CCP explicitly avoided fighting the Japanese whenever they could, specifically because they saw the nationalists as the main threat.

The nationalists got screwed over by America because of their utterly incompetent General Slim. At one point, the nationalists were fighting a million man Japanese army, and Slim was blackmailing them with the threat of withholding American supplies unless they sent men to help his utterly pointless and inconsequential Burma campaign.

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[Rob R]

No one, in the election was asked if they agreed with the NATO program of war against Russia.

How can they be asked to agree to.something that doesn't exist unlike Putin war?

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[Aussie in exile]

Let;s not forget that the Soviet Union suffered 28 million deaths in order to defeat Hitler.
the US and Britain only decided to intervene when they could see that the Red Army had won.

Britain entered the war in 1939 I'm surprised you didn't know and I'm also surprised that you didn't know that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union signed a joint pact at the beginining of the 2nd world war that later Hitler broke.

 

[IlovethePies]

Britain entered the war in 1939 I'm surprised you didn't know and I'm also surprised that you didn't know that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union signed a joint pact at the beginining of the 2nd world war that later Hitler broke.

Yes, Britain entered the war in 1939, but did nothing in terms of engaging the Wehrmacht militarily.

Stalin was pleading with Churchill and Roosevelt for 1 to 2 years to open a second front in Europe to relieve the pressure on the Soviet Union.

Both refused, hoping that the NAzis would bleed Russia white...until they saw in 1944 that the Red Army was on the verge of conquering Germany itself and then rolling on into Western Europe.

The D-Day invasion of Dunkirk was aimed against the Red army, not against Hitler. The Red Army had already dealt the death blow to Hitler.

 

[IlovethePies]

Let's not forget the only reason that Hitler attacked USSR was because Stalin did a deal to give him Poland in exchange for the Baltics. Out of those 28 million deaths approximately 15 million were suffered by Belarus & Ukraine. Despite their population accounting for approximately 35-40m out of the 170m population of the USSR at the time. This is only shortly after your leaders starved millions of Ukranians to death in the 1930s.

And let's not forget that the only way the USSR was able to defeat Hitler was with the biggest lend lease military supply program of all time courtesy of the USA.

This is happening again with Ukraine fighting against a fascist aggressor (Russia) supplied by the US but also this time most of the free world. I know you are probably not allowed to ask this question where you live but you must surely wonder why the only allies Putin has are human rights abusing dictatorships. I'm sure you know why but aren't allowed to say so, we understand.


Face it tovarisch - Ukraine is better off without Russia interfering with it. It's what the people of Ukraine want and that is all that matters - not what Putin decides.

""Let's not forget the only reason that Hitler attacked USSR was because Stalin did a deal to give him Poland in exchange for the Baltics. " (quote from Zidane)
This is utter rubbish. Hitler had years before outlined his intention to destroy "Asiatic/Jewish Bolshevism" by conquering the Soviet Union. The destruction of the Soviet Union was his intention when he took power in 1933.

"And let's not forget that the only way the USSR was able to defeat Hitler was with the biggest lend lease military supply program of all time courtesy of the USA."
Quote from Zidane.

Again, absolute rubbish. The Lend Lease miilitary supply to the USSR was a token to cover up Roosevelt's and Churchill's secret agreement with Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union. They held their breath, hoping that the Soviet Union and Germany would exhaust each others'' resources in a cataclysmic war.

The Soviet Union defeated Hitler because the vast majority of the population in the USSR understood that Hitler represented a threat to everything that they had gained in the Russian Revolution, and to the future of their children.

The Stalinist regime imposed criminal economic policies which led to famine and the starvation of millions in the Soviet Union during the late 20's and early 30's. However, it was not a genocide because it was not aimed specifically against any ethnic population . Thousands of non-Ukrainian people also died during Stalin's program of forced collectivisation.

The Stalinist regime was a criminal regime. During the 1930's, the Stalinists unleashed the Great Terror, in which they murdered hundreds of thousands of genuine socialists, and anyone else who dared to think independently.

The Stalinist regime was the absolute antithesis of genuine socialism. It was a massive bureaucracy which sought to entrench its privileges by pretending to be "socialist", and murdering anyone who had a critical idea in their mind.

I am utterly opposed to Stalinism. I am for genuine socialism.

"I know you are probably not allowed to ask this question where you live but you must surely wonder why the only allies Putin has are human rights abusing dictatorships. I'm sure you know why but aren't allowed to say so, we understand."
[quote from Zidane]

You understand absolutely nothing. You cannot seem to grasp a very, very simple idea: that opposing Zelensky does NOT imply support for Putin.
It is possible to be opposed to both.

I am for the working population in both Ukraine and Russia. Their sons and daughters are being used as cannon fodder by both Putin and Zelensky, and when they realise this fact, the days of both Zelensky and Putin will be numbered.

 

[IlovethePies]

This guy is off with the fairies. The CCP explicitly avoided fighting the Japanese whenever they could, specifically because they saw the nationalists as the main threat.

The nationalists got screwed over by America because of their utterly incompetent General Slim. At one point, the nationalists were fighting a million man Japanese army, and Slim was blackmailing them with the threat of withholding American supplies unless they sent men to help his utterly pointless and inconsequential Burma campaign.

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"Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek did not offer open opposition, preferring instead to pursue his campaign against Chinese communist forces. In December 1936, in what came to be known as the Xi’an Incident, Chiang was seized by forces under the command of his own generals and compelled to ally with the communists in a United Front against Japan."

"By July 1937 practically all Chinese regional military and political groups had rallied to support the Nationalist government and Chiang Kai-shek in their decision to oppose Japan by every means. The communists, who had urged a united front against Japan since 1935, pledged their support and put their armies nominally under command of the government."
"The communists were particularly successful in using guerrilla methods to resist Japan. The rapid Japanese advances broke down the established patterns of politico-military control. Communist troops and organizers moved into the vast rural areas behind Japanese lines. They organized village self-defense units, created local governments, and expanded their own armies, the Eighth Route Army, operating in the mountains and plains of north China, and the New Fourth Army in the lower Yangtze valley."

Above quotes totally destroy your argument, Where do they come from?

From the Encyclopedia Britannica. Hardly a cauldron of socialist ideology

Second Sino-Japanese War | Summary, Combatants, Facts, & Map

Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–45), conflict that broke out when China began a full-scale resistance to the expansion of Japanese influence in its territory. The war remained undeclared until December 9, 1941, and ended after Allied counterattacks during World War II brought about Japan’s surrender.

www.britannica.com

 

[Chief]

Their sons and daughters are being used as cannon fodder by both Putin and Zelensky, and when they realise this fact, the days of both Zelensky and Putin will be numbered.

You know that if Putin didn't invade, we wouldn't be here, right?

That if he turned around and went home the fighting would stop?

 

[wannabejack]

Russian banks say they've run out of yuan as Chinese firms pull away from the nation

Payment scuffles between Russian companies and Chinese banks have escalated in recent weeks, with Chinese firms pulling back amid fear of sanctions.

markets.businessinsider.com

Russia's banks have practically emptied their stash of yuan, largely because Chinese financial firms are spooked from doing business with the nation.

Chinese banks are more hesitant to trade currency in Russia after the US threatened to impose secondary sanctions on countries doing business with Russia while it continues its war against Ukraine.

Payment scuffles between Russian companies and Chinese banks have escalated in recent weeks, with nearly all Chinese banks stopping transactions with Russia. Some banks have even returned payments for goods that had already been sent to Russia, out of fear of being targeted by sanctions, a Russian media outlet reported.

The payment difficulties are a problem for Russia's economy, which has grown more isolated from global markets and consequently more reliant on China's yuan after being targeted by Western sanctions in 2022.

Russia's central bank said the yuan had become its main exchange currency this year, accounting for more than half of all currency trades in the nation.

 

[Jamolad]

The D-Day invasion of Dunkirk...

Oh my, how can you honestly expect to be taken seriously after posting this.

I mean you have been talking some absolute bullshit and accuse others of trying to re-write history, when you were 4 years and 370-odd km off target with this fact.

"Dunkirk invasion". You must have watched the Dunkirk withdrawal in reverse.

Please educate us some more.

Oh yeah, you can also stop worrying about the West nuking Russia...cause they'll use the Jewish space lasers instead.

 

[Mobbs]

Oh my, how can you honestly expect to be taken seriously after posting this.

I mean you have been talking some absolute bullshit and accuse others of trying to re-write history, when you were 4 years and 370-odd km off target with this fact.

"Dunkirk invasion". You must have watched the Dunkirk withdrawal in reverse.

Please educate us some more.

Oh yeah, you can also stop worrying about the West nuking Russia...cause they'll use the Jewish space lasers instead.

Come on Jamo, how can you argue when everything said is based on ...

... a scientific appraisal.

 

[EagleMan87]

Yes, Britain entered the war in 1939, but did nothing in terms of engaging the Wehrmacht militarily.

Stalin was pleading with Churchill and Roosevelt for 1 to 2 years to open a second front in Europe to relieve the pressure on the Soviet Union.

Both refused, hoping that the NAzis would bleed Russia white...until they saw in 1944 that the Red Army was on the verge of conquering Germany itself and then rolling on into Western Europe.

The D-Day invasion of Dunkirk was aimed against the Red army, not against Hitler. The Red Army had already dealt the death blow to Hitler.

Wrong again. The Allies waged a land war against the Axis in Africa, Asia and Italy, all drawing resources away from the USSR, and all well before 1944.

They also made a disastrous attempted invasion of France in 1942 (At Dieppe, not Dunkirk ), which showed just how many men and resources would be needed for a successful full-scale invasion of the continent.

So, maybe try reading a book sometime, instead of watching YouTube videos.

 

[IlovethePies]

Oh my, how can you honestly expect to be taken seriously after posting this.

I mean you have been talking some absolute bullshit and accuse others of trying to re-write history, when you were 4 years and 370-odd km off target with this fact.

"Dunkirk invasion". You must have watched the Dunkirk withdrawal in reverse.

Please educate us some more.

Oh yeah, you can also stop worrying about the West nuking Russia...cause they'll use the Jewish space lasers instead.

My bad... should have reread before posting... meant the Normandy landing, not Dunkirk.
Everything else i said is correct.
If you don't take me seriously, i wont be heart broken.

 

[IlovethePies]

You know that if Putin didn't invade, we wouldn't be here, right?

That if he turned around and went home the fighting would stop?

If you had read anything of what I wrote before, - even if you disagreed with me, which I am sure you do - you would not actually have asked these questions, because I have answered them multiple times.

a) Putin's invasion was provoked by the aggressive militarisation of Ukraine on its borders and its integration into NATO (by default). Putin never aimed to conquer Ukraine: he aimed at striking a deal which would guarantee the security of Russia's border with NATO, and stop the ever encroaching menace of NATO miitarisation on its doorstep. Moreover, if Russia were to accept Ukraine's integration into NATO, this would mean the loss of its access to the Black Sea because NATO fleets would then have access to all the Black Sea ports of Ukraine. The Putin regime judged such a geopolitical situation as untenable.

b) if Putin withdrew from Ukraine now, the war would not stop. NATO would continue to use Ukraine as a base for fomenting crises and internal conflicts within Russia to overthrow Putin and dismember Russia. The goal of NATO is not "peace and democracy", but rather the subjugation and plunder of the vast strategic mineral resources within the borders of the Russian federation by US/European corporations.

 

[Chief]

he aimed at striking a deal which would guarantee the security of Russia's border with NATO, and stop the ever encroaching menace of NATO miitarisation on its doorstep.

From what I recall, he wanted to keep NATO from Russia's borders.

Despite NATO countries already sitting on Russia's borders?

Why the change of heart with Ukraine?

Why claim Ukraine isn't even really a sovereign nation if you just want to secure your own borders and have no real designs on the land?

 

[IlovethePies]

Wrong again. The Allies waged a land war against the Axis in Africa, Asia and Italy, all drawing resources away from the USSR, and all well before 1944.

They also made a disastrous attempted invasion of France in 1942 (At Dieppe, not Dunkirk ), which showed just how many men and resources would be needed for a successful full-scale invasion of the continent.

So, maybe try reading a book sometime, instead of watching YouTube videos.

Yeah, my mistake, I was tired last night, and meant the Normandy invasion in 1944, when the Allies opened up the second front. The second front was not aimed at Hitler's regime, becuase the Red Army had already destroyed it. The allied invasion at Normandy, called the "D-day" was not the liberation of France. It was the first shot of the Cold War, and was aimed above all else at blocking any further advance of the Red Army - as subsequent events rapidly proved, such as the Berlin Crisis in 1961.