Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Syd]

Except for The Ukraine Defence Contact Group that meets at Ramstien once a month to nut out what they're going to give Ukraine.
An alliance of 57 countries including all the NATO members,to suggest that all they're giving away is 'obsolete military equipment' and 'munitions that are expiring anyway' is absurd.

193 Countries in the world (excludes Vatican and Palestine)
57 given support and materiel aid
That's 30% of the Countries in the World.

So it seems its more a Global recognition than US only protection.

Plus the European Unions have a vested interest in mutual security to consider.

How many supporting Russia?

 

[Zidane98]

Except for The Ukraine Defence Contact Group that meets at Ramstien once a month to nut out what they're going to give Ukraine.
An alliance of 57 countries including all the NATO members,to suggest that all they're giving away is 'obsolete military equipment' and 'munitions that are expiring anyway' is absurd.

The simple facts are that Ukraine gets absolutely zero protection from US. No troops fight on behalf of Ukraine not does any nation defend Ukraine in combat vs Russia. It is Ukrainians figuring off Russian fascists alone despite massively inferior numbers.

Ukraine has many military aid donors. This is true. Why wouldn't it? A hostile state is invading it with a military 5 X the size of Ukraines. And yes, Ukraine gets none of the latest US military equipment. This is also a fact.

 

[wannabejack]

Mate, you need to take a critical view, and avoid falling in with propaganda.

There has never been any evidence whatsoever produced to show that Putin intends to invade Poland, or any other NATO country on its border.

This is just NATO propaganda to portray Putin as an insane empire building madman.

....

"Mate, you need to take a critical view, and avoid falling in with propaganda."

January 10, 2022
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emerged from the nearly eight hours of talks and declared, "There are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine." He went on to say, "There is no reason to fear some kind of escalatory scenario."

March 28, 2024
Russia has no designs on any NATO country and will not attack Poland, the Baltic states or the Czech Republic ..., President Vladimir Putin said late on Wednesday.
Jan 18, 2024
The think tank said it hasn't found any indication yet that Russia plans to attack the Baltics soon. However, the ISW warned that Putin may be laying the groundwork for "future aggressive Russian actions abroad under the pretext of protecting its 'compatriots.'" (sounds familiar)

 

[IlovethePies]

Here is an article which shows the criminal and corrupt nature of the Zelensky regime. It is forcibly recruiting thousands of young men against their will, because they have no desire to die for the wealth and profits of Ukrainian capitalists and their US/NATO paymasters.

Here are some witness accounts: "gangs openly kidnap and abuse men in public in order to fulfil conscription quotas. In many cases, men have died as a result of the abuse, but there are no investigations. The police look the other way”

In a country that tells the world that it stands up for democracy, “security forces invade the homes of those who have criticised the government.”

“Before [Zelensky] there were fake elections, but at least there were elections. Now there are no elections at all.” Before Zelensky, there was also media propaganda under the influence of the oligarchs, but at least there was some freedom of opinion. “But now only one opinion is allowed.” Children are beaten up at school if they speak Russian.It’s like in Russia. There is no freedom of speech”

" People are being attacked and hunted on the streets. They are conscripted by force. Basically, everyone knows that. What is less well known are the numerous cases of torture and murder in Ukrainian police stations."

The borders are closed, turning the country into a prison. This is to stop conscription age men from leaving.

Sons of wealthy families escape conscription because they can pay the necessary bribes.

This is the real nature of Ukraine. It is not the shining light of freedom and democracy that US/NATO propaganda would have you believe that it is.

Rallies in Paris, Berlin and Cologne show growing opposition to the war in Ukraine

It is necessary to focus this opposition on the working class and to arm it with an international socialist perspective, independent of the imperialist powers of NATO as well as the capitalist regimes in Ukraine and Russia.

www.wsws.org

 

[IlovethePies]

[/QUOTE]

193 Countries in the world (excludes Vatican and Palestine)
57 given support and materiel aid
That's 30% of the Countries in the World.

So it seems its more a Global recognition than US only protection.

Plus the European Unions have a vested interest in mutual security to consider.

How many supporting Russia?

I don't take the views of criminal and corrupt capitalist governments as the basis for deciding who is right and who is wrong.

In any case, in this conflict, both sides are "wrong", both sides represent capitalist ruling cliques (Zelensky - the Ukrainian oligarchs and US/NATO capitalists, and Putin the Russian oligarchs) fighting out a battle for the control of Russia's and Ukraine's vast mineral wealth and resources.

The only side which has an interest in the truth is the international working class.

 

[wannabejack]

Here is an article which shows the criminal and corrupt nature of the Zelensky regime. It is forcibly recruiting thousands of young men against their will, because they have no desire to die for the wealth and profits of Ukrainian capitalists and their US/NATO paymasters.

Here are some witness accounts: "gangs openly kidnap and abuse men in public in order to fulfil conscription quotas. In many cases, men have died as a result of the abuse, but there are no investigations. The police look the other way”

In a country that tells the world that it stands up for democracy, “security forces invade the homes of those who have criticised the government.”

“Before [Zelensky] there were fake elections, but at least there were elections. Now there are no elections at all.” Before Zelensky, there was also media propaganda under the influence of the oligarchs, but at least there was some freedom of opinion. “But now only one opinion is allowed.” Children are beaten up at school if they speak Russian.It’s like in Russia. There is no freedom of speech”

" People are being attacked and hunted on the streets. They are conscripted by force. Basically, everyone knows that. What is less well known are the numerous cases of torture and murder in Ukrainian police stations."

The borders are closed, turning the country into a prison. This is to stop conscription age men from leaving.

Sons of wealthy families escape conscription because they can pay the necessary bribes.

This is the real nature of Ukraine. It is not the shining light of freedom and democracy that US/NATO propaganda would have you believe that it is.

Rallies in Paris, Berlin and Cologne show growing opposition to the war in Ukraine

It is necessary to focus this opposition on the working class and to arm it with an international socialist perspective, independent of the imperialist powers of NATO as well as the capitalist regimes in Ukraine and Russia.

www.wsws.org

Dietmar Gaisenkersting speaking at the rally in Cologne or maybe he's just checking his messages.
If anyone is bothered to check out the article there's a couple of photos showing a demonstration from 2014 with crowds up to at least 3 people.

Russia spreads false rally calls against human rights violations in Ukraine

Information about demonstrations apparently planned in Europe to protest reported human rights violations in Ukraine is part of a campaign by pro-Russian forces

global.espreso.tv

Pro-Russian actors behind rallies against ârights violations in Ukraineâ - watchdog

Reports about the rallies "against human rights violations in Ukraine" announced in several European cities is part of a wider campaign orchestrated by pro-Russian forces. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

 

[rank and file]

The simple facts are that Ukraine gets absolutely zero protection from US. No troops fight on behalf of Ukraine not does any nation defend Ukraine in combat vs Russia. It is Ukrainians figuring off Russian fascists alone despite massively inferior numbers.

Ukraine has many military aid donors. This is true. Why wouldn't it? A hostile state is invading it with a military 5 X the size of Ukraines. And yes, Ukraine gets none of the latest US military equipment. This is also a fact.

You don't get the latest US equipment unless you pay for it and I don't think they can afford it.
Back to your claim Ukraine gets absolutely zero military assistance from US/NATO,not a fact it's bullshit.
Besides the CIA quite a few NATO special forces.

 

[Zidane98]

You don't get the latest US equipment unless you pay for it and I don't think they can afford it.
Back to your claim Ukraine gets absolutely zero military assistance from US/NATO,not a fact it's bullshit.
Besides the CIA quite a few NATO special forces.View attachment 2193014

The original claim was Ukraine is under US protection which is of course pro Russian bullshit Quite how you've turned that into Ukraine doesn't get military aid is anyone's guess.

As for a small amount of military personnel in Ukraine. Many states have personnel in Ukraine because they have embassies or consulates based there.

China does, India does too. This does not mean they are actively involved in the war at all.

There is not a single active military unit fighting in Ukraine from an allied state. None of US armed forces fight in Ukraine nor from any other state with the exception of North Korea.

Ukraine is fighting alone against Nazis supplied by allies. The very same thing happened in WW2.

US is not providing protection in Ukraine. Supplying military aid is not protection.

If it were the case US armed forces would be fighting alongside Ukranian armed forces against Russian fascists.

US should be doing more if anything. It has an obligation to do so after coercing Ukraine into turning over much of its bomber fleet, cruise / ballistic missiles to Russia in exchange for defending Ukraine's sovereignty.

 

[Aussie in exile]

View attachment 2192958
Dietmar Gaisenkersting speaking at the rally in Cologne or maybe he's just checking his messages.
If anyone is bothered to check out the article there's a couple of photos showing a demonstration from 2014 with crowds up to at least 3 people.

Russia spreads false rally calls against human rights violations in Ukraine

Information about demonstrations apparently planned in Europe to protest reported human rights violations in Ukraine is part of a campaign by pro-Russian forces

global.espreso.tv

Pro-Russian actors behind rallies against ârights violations in Ukraineâ - watchdog

Reports about the rallies "against human rights violations in Ukraine" announced in several European cities is part of a wider campaign orchestrated by pro-Russian forces. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Ilovethepies drinks the kool aid when it comes to Russian propaganda

 

[IlovethePies]

It is a well known fact that Britain has had special units in Ukraine for many months

It is also well known that US military professional trainers are on the ground in Ukraine.

The leak of State Department documents publicised above reveals officially what had long been known to be true.

However, despite Zidane's obvious penchant for ridiculous lies, there is some element of truth (which he did not intend) in his claims.

It is true that the US and NATO are not "protecting" Ukraine. They are delivering weapons to Ukraine so that they can use Ukrainian cannon fodder in their as yet undeclared war against Russia.

 

[Aussie in exile]

It is a well known fact that Britain has had special units in Ukraine for many months

It is also well known that US military professional trainers are on the ground in Ukraine.

However, despite Zidane's obvious penchant for ridiculous lies, there is some element of truth (which he did not intend) in his claims.

It is true that the US and NATO are not "protecting" Ukraine. They are delivering weapons to Ukraine so that they can use Ukrainian cannon fodder in their as yet undeclared war against Russia.

Is it?
Are there not North Koreans fighting in Ukraine?
Are there Iranian's assisting Russian with missiles launches?

 

[IlovethePies]

View attachment 2192958
Dietmar Gaisenkersting speaking at the rally in Cologne or maybe he's just checking his messages.
If anyone is bothered to check out the article there's a couple of photos showing a demonstration from 2014 with crowds up to at least 3 people.

Russia spreads false rally calls against human rights violations in Ukraine

Information about demonstrations apparently planned in Europe to protest reported human rights violations in Ukraine is part of a campaign by pro-Russian forces

global.espreso.tv

Pro-Russian actors behind rallies against ârights violations in Ukraineâ - watchdog

Reports about the rallies "against human rights violations in Ukraine" announced in several European cities is part of a wider campaign orchestrated by pro-Russian forces. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

What else would you expect the state operated Ukrainian propaganda agency to say?

 

[Aussie in exile]

What else would you expect state operated Ukraine propaganda to say?

Read and weep this ILovethePies

Who are Russia's allies in the war in Ukraine?

Moscow turns to authoritarian regimes Asia and the Middle East as well as historic apartheid-era support from South Africa

theweek.com

 

[barreness]

Just a reminder, the entire conspiracy claiming external manufacture of the Maidan coup is built on these words:
View attachment 2192209

Of course we've had this moment a dozen or more times already here. Maybe it should be stickied!

So Nuland's hand picked leader turns out to be the head of the Rada after the coup democratic revolution(where the Rada and presidential palace was occupied by armed far right militia, the judiciary was sacked, the leading political party was dissolved, CIA bases were set up etc). Fancy that, guess she is just a bit of an oracle


Nothing to see here, colour revolutions are but a figment of my imagination

 

[barreness]

funny thing is Trump talking about not protecting countries is exactly what would create a nuclear arms race. This is one of the biggest reasons the US play world police. The moment they don’t have military bases and strong alliances around the world in the moment every country seeks Nuclear weapons for protection.
If they are actually worried about Nuclear weapons then you fully support Ukraine so that other countries know they don’t need nuclear weapons in the future for protection.

The nuclear arms race for all nations bar one began on 06/08/1945. The only country to disarm is apartheid South Africa, we all know it's because they didn't trust the blacks

The NPT, INF(withdrawn from by the US), few others did some things to limit it. Iraq and Libya abandoning their nuclear programs and subsequently being invaded and their leaders executed did more than this current war. Iran and North Korea are completely sane for developing them in their position

 

[barreness]

193 Countries in the world (excludes Vatican and Palestine)
57 given support and materiel aid
That's 30% of the Countries in the World.

So it seems its more a Global recognition than US only protection.

Plus the European Unions have a vested interest in mutual security to consider.

How many supporting Russia?

India and China remain rather 'neutral' and keep trade open, so that's a third of the world. The remaining third doesn't really care for either side and some are welcoming Russian influence, Sahel Africa and the like

The days are over where the US and vassals can control the world. This may be bad, it's almost certainly going to be worse if they try to maintain hegemon status

 

[barreness]

eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end

Thanks champ

Ukraine (cossacks)

Western Ukrainians are most certainly not cossack, regardless they all(including european Russians) fall under eastern slav

have been in conflict with russia (Moscow) since the 1600’s. They are in conflict today.

Which conflict?

Ukraine are not in conflict with Poland or Lithuanian or Austria or Hungary today.

Poles pretty salty about the WW2 massacres

Britain, France, Germany are not in conflict today.

So 'eternal' enemies can make peace, that's my point

 

[rank and file]

The original claim was Ukraine is under US protection which is of course pro Russian bullshit Quite how you've turned that into Ukraine doesn't get military aid is anyone's guess.

As for a small amount of military personnel in Ukraine. Many states have personnel in Ukraine because they have embassies or consulates based there.

China does, India does too. This does not mean they are actively involved in the war at all.

There is not a single active military unit fighting in Ukraine from an allied state. None of US armed forces fight in Ukraine nor from any other state with the exception of North Korea.

Ukraine is fighting alone against Nazis supplied by allies. The very same thing happened in WW2.

US is not providing protection in Ukraine. Supplying military aid is not protection.

If it were the case US armed forces would be fighting alongside Ukranian armed forces against Russian fascists.

US should be doing more if anything. It has an obligation to do so after coercing Ukraine into turning over much of its bomber fleet, cruise / ballistic missiles to Russia in exchange for defending Ukraine's sovereignty.

Fair enough,unfortunately no nation has dared to put boots on the ground overtly as it would be political election suicide,that situation won't change anytime soon.
On the covert side,CIA would've been balls deep from the the get go helping Ukraine war effort.
Technically not US military,but closely linked.

Anyway enjoy your Christmas and New Year.
Hope the Doomsday Clock doesn't get wound in too much in January.

 

[Zidane98]

Fair enough,unfortunately no nation has dared to put boots on the ground overtly as it would be political election suicide,that situation won't change anytime soon.
On the covert side,CIA would've been balls deep from the the get go helping Ukraine war effort.
Technically not US military,but closely linked.

Anyway enjoy your Christmas and New Year.
Hope the Doomsday Clock doesn't get wound in too much in January.

You too mate. Seasons greetings for the festive season.

Rest easy on nukes. Russia's hundreds of nuke threats are a running joke in geopolitical circles.

Mostly because nukes result only in bad things for Russia and most importantly for Putin himself & his family.

 

[IlovethePies]

So Nuland's hand picked leader turns out to be the head of the Rada after the coup democratic revolution(where the Rada and presidential palace was occupied by armed far right militia, the judiciary was sacked, the leading political party was dissolved, CIA bases were set up etc). Fancy that, guess she is just a bit of an oracle


Nothing to see here, colour revolutions are but a figment of my imagination

Thankyou for this excellent video.

Of course the events in Maidan were not directed by the US government

Those attempting to cover up the intervention of US and German imperialism in the Maidan coup are covering up for the Ukrainian neo-fascists, who are present in all layers of the Zelensky government and the Ukrainian military hierarchy.

(Do I need to name them, Mobbs,Zidane, Wannabejack....)

 

[rank and file]

You too mate. Seasons greetings for the festive season.

Rest easy on nukes. Russia's hundreds of nuke threats are a running joke in geopolitical circles.

Mostly because nukes result only in bad things for Russia and most importantly for Putin himself & his family.

Not too worried about nukes.

28th January will be interesting,8 days after inauguration,reset the clock.
Obviously not one of the nine nobel laureates but tipping a seismic shift, in 2 seconds.
If Donald/Elon get it out 1 second,that's a PR move for the ages.

 

[IlovethePies]

As usual you missed the point. No one, including all of us against what Russia is doing now, don't dispute Russia carried a terrible burden during the Second World War. My point, was they inflicted a lot of suffering on others and fellow Russians during the war, due to collaboration with the Nazi's and Stalin's purges afterwards. Of course it doesn't really matter what I posted, in some way it'd end up having been the fault of the Capitalist West, with only a global socialist revolution by the working classes solving the issue.

a) I am assuming you are referring to the Stalin/Hitler pact with reference to collaboration with the Nazis. Yes, this pact was a criminal act by the Stalinist regime, because it totally confused the international working class. The Stalinist regime (falsely) claimed to represent socialism, yet now they struck a deal with Hitler... This crimiinal political act served to confuse the political consciousness of millions of workers internationally.

b) The Stalinist purges (the "'Great Terror") during the mid and late 1930's was directed against all those people within the Soviet Union who had connections with the genuine Bolsheviks (ie the Left Opposition) and the principles of socialism. This was a political genocide, directed not against a nationality, but against all people within the Soviet Union who Stalin suspected of having any attachment to the original internationalist principles of the October Revolution.

This included Stalin's murder of the best generals in the Red Army at that time. This was because these generals were imbued with the original sentiments of the Bolshevik socialist revolution (ie, social equality, internationalism) which Stalin aimed to exterminate, because they threatened the privileged position of the national bureaucracy which he represented.

c) You are correct in saying that the the actions of Stalin sabotaged the Soviet Union in the war against Hitler. Had the Left Opposition (which from 1923 opposed Stalin) been in power rather than Stalin, the war against Hitler would have been of a totally different character. The Soviet Union would have been well prepared.

d) The irony, in terms of what you write, is that Putin draws his inspiration from Stalin. This is because Stalin represented Russian nationalism, and because Stalin tried to exterminate genuine socialism.
Putin admires Stalin precisely because Stalin attempted to annihilate socialism, and because he represented right wing Russian nationalism and finally because he was a dictator, like Putin.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

a) I am assuming you are referring to the Stalin/Hitler pact with reference to collaboration with the Nazis. Yes, this pact was a criminal act by the Stalinist regime, because it totally confused the international working class. The Stalinist regime (falsely) claimed to represent socialism, yet now they struck a deal with Hitler... This crimiinal political act served to confuse the political consciousness of millions of workers internationally.

b) The Stalinist purges (the "'Great Terror") during the mid and late 1930's was directed against all those people within the Soviet Union who had connections with the genuine Bolsheviks (ie the Left Opposition) and the principles of socialism. This was a political genocide, directed not against a nationality, but against all people within the Soviet Union who Stalin suspected of having any attachment to the original internationalist principles of the October Revolution.

This included Stalin's murder of the best generals in the Red Army at that time. This was because these generals were imbued with the original sentiments of the Bolshevik socialist revolution (ie, social equality, internationalism) which Stalin aimed to exterminate, because they threatened the privileged position of the national bureaucracy which he represented.

c) You are correct in saying that the the actions of Stalin sabotaged the Soviet Union in the war against Hitler. Had the Left Opposition (which from 1923 opposed Stalin) been in power rather than Stalin, the war against Hitler would have been of a totally different character. The Soviet Union would have been well prepared.

d) The irony, in terms of what you write, is that Putin draws his inspiration from Stalin. This is because Stalin represented Russian nationalism, and because Stalin tried to exterminate genuine socialism.
Putin admires Stalin precisely because Stalin attempted to annihilate socialism, and because he represented right wing Russian nationalism and finally because he was a dictator, like Putin.

If you actually worked out the best people to do each job in society.
your working class would be the least able to rule , IQ, ability , whatever.
You think the lowest IQ in society should rule. What does that say about you.?

 

[IlovethePies]

If you actually worked out the best people to do each job in society.
your working class would be the least able to rule , IQ, ability , whatever.
You think the lowest IQ in society should rule. What does that say about you.?

Happy Xmas mate.

Why do you think workers are the least intelligent members of society?

Is it because you don;t work (therefore you are more intelligent)?

Or is it because you run/have run a small business, so you think that people like you are far more intelligent than those you employ?

what does that say about you?

Two possible answers
a) you are an ignorant a**hole
or
b) you are an ignorant a**hole

 

[Jamolad]

a) I am assuming you are referring to the Stalin/Hitler pact with reference to collaboration with the Nazis. Yes, this pact was a criminal act by the Stalinist regime, because it totally confused the international working class. The Stalinist regime (falsely) claimed to represent socialism, yet now they struck a deal with Hitler... This crimiinal political act served to confuse the political consciousness of millions of workers internationally.

I reckon the international working class got confused by the Bolsheviks (under Lenin) invading Georgia to try to install a Bolshevik government by force. You'd agree that's a shit act by Lenin and the Bolsheviks, yeah? You want the working class to rise up in revolution; you don't want the red army to invade and subjugate neighouring countries, that's imperialist shit, yeah?

b) The Stalinist purges (the "'Great Terror") during the mid and late 1930's was directed against all those people within the Soviet Union who had connections with the genuine Bolsheviks (ie the Left Opposition) and the principles of socialism. This was a political genocide, directed not against a nationality, but against all people within the Soviet Union who Stalin suspected of having any attachment to the original internationalist principles of the October Revolution.

This included Stalin's murder of the best generals in the Red Army at that time. This was because these generals were imbued with the original sentiments of the Bolshevik socialist revolution (ie, social equality, internationalism) which Stalin aimed to exterminate, because they threatened the privileged position of the national bureaucracy which he represented.

While we are talking about 'privileged positions', didn't Lenin retire to his holiday home? With "social equality" being a core sentiment of the Bolsheviks, must have been nice for everyone including the working class to each have a holiday home in Russia back then.

Stalin was a Bolshevik. The "Great Terror", all the persecution, all the corruption, Stalinism itself, can all be traced back to its roots in the Bolsheviks.

I have no doubt you are well-intentioned - but you talk a lot of history yet you cherry pick and you ignore the lessons of history. We say we have seen Socialism tried many times and seen it become violent oppressive dictatorial shit-shows because power corrupts and is worse when there are no guardrails. You say it will be different if it is done on an international scale...we say it will still end up with some dick-head ruining it in spectacular fashion, because of human nature.

The Bolsheviks, and your preferred flavour of socialist group, are only as good as their worst member...can you guarantee you guys will not impose another Stalin on us like the Bolsheviks did? And how will you ensure that? Oppression and/or purges?

And by the way - if the Russian and Ukrainian working class were to rise up in revolution, it would likely not be lead by your preferred mob behind the WSW, they would unite under the faction that split off from your group due to fundamental disagreements about previous activities and current beliefs. Why would they unite under your US-led faction run by the millionaire union-busting printer guy that goes by a couple of names and has dark clouds over blood money from the 70s, instead of uniting under the Russian faction that does not get along with your faction?

The fact that there are so many factions, so many internationals, you guarantee there will not be bloody violent clashes, like the Bolsheviks gave us? The working class will live in harmony and have holiday homes like Lenin, and those that run the show will all get along with no power-struggles?

Ron Burgundy does not believe you