Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun

[Kramer1]

Think he's married, but ok.

Oh! You mean the hat...

I'd settle for the indentured servitude of his first born...

 

[myblueroan]

I'd settle for the indentured servitude of his first born...

Lotta points likes needed methinks.

 

[Kruezing]

I think people are confusing the word rumour with the word fact … they do not mean the same thing … once you accept this all will be well grasshopper lol …

 

[gadj1976]

Good for Dowy imo. Best thing for his career is going somewhere he'll be starting best 22

The best part of the past few weeks, is we've upped his worth on the open market.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Dylan Stephens

15

Dylan Stephens

Age

24

Ht

184cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.0

1star

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

10.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.0

1star

looking like he's gone from Sydney.

Wonder if we'd be interested. I know we liked him in his draft year

I feel he's more a centre bounce mid then a winger that he has played there.

On Pixel 7 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Not the “type” we need, currently and also in the short to medium term future with Campo twins coming in next year

Talls (defenders) and impact half forwards is what I think we need


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Blue__Balls]

I'd be happy to look at Stephens on a couple of conditions:

- He's prepared to spend time in the reserves and fight for a starting spot as time goes by.
- Dow elects to leave.
- Carroll elects to leave.

If he's wanting assurances on a stating spot, or if we retain our own depth mids, then I don't think it's worth his while or ours to bring him on board.

 

[Matty411]

I'd be happy to look at Stephens on a couple of conditions:

- He's prepared to spend time in the reserves and fight for a starting spot as time goes by.
- Dow elects to leave.
- Carroll elects to leave.

If he's wanting assurances on a stating spot, or if we retain our own depth mids, then I don't think it's worth his while or ours to bring him on board.

My thoughts exactly. Great depth option if Dowy chooses to leave, but wouldn't want to spend much as it'd be a depth option (at least initially).

 

[Wickzki]

too easy

Williams is a better player than all of : Cincotta Marchbank and Boyd and Fisher ...he doesnt have the height to be compared to McGovern or maybe Kemp who is emerging class, as a defender, I rate him significantly better than Docherty - but Doch is a better defensive wing/mid rotation

I don't think it's as simple as that. Marchbank is currently playing the McGovern role. I don't for a second believe that we'd play Williams as the second or third tall. I believe Voss has settled on this. Marchy goes out when McGovern is fit. If or when McGovern doesn't renew I believe we'd look for another alternative

Fisher is only in the team right now because of injuries. He's not going to be a regular member of our back sex. Handy depth though.

Of the three Cincotta is the one that would make way for Zac. This could happen as with Williams and Doc you have two very versatile defenders meaning Cinc could come off the bench but then where does Newman play who deserves AA squad consideration and two I didn't even mention in my back 6 to begin with.

Our backline is stacked with talent. It's also got great balance right now and good chemistry. They are all firing now that Voss has all lines playing fantastic team defence.

This is why I believe he will play half forward and rotate when necessary to his natural defensive position.

 

[Blue__Balls]

too easy

Williams is a better player than all of : Cincotta Marchbank and Boyd and Fisher ...he doesnt have the height to be compared to McGovern or maybe Kemp who is emerging class, as a defender, I rate him significantly better than Docherty - but Doch is a better defensive wing/mid rotation

He is also a forward rotation option with as much class as Martin and Cuningham and Owies/Motlop/Durdin are not even in the conversation.

I'd be looking at it from a balance perspective.

Defense:
- we have a slightly undersized but more than handy complement of talls - Weiters, Kemp, Gov, Marchy (plus Young and Durdin), and three of those starting talls generate serious drive on the rebound.
- we have a quality group of small defenders - Newman, Saad, Boyd, Doc, Cincotta (plus Cowan and Fisher), all of whom can take territory on the run or with their kicking.

Midfield:
- we have one of the better contested mid groups in the comp - Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy (plus Dow).
- we have two absolutely elite inside/out mids - Walsh, Cerra (plus Carroll).
- we have an enviable collection of wingers - Acres, Hollands, Cottrell (plus Binns and LOB).

Forward:
- we have two Coleman medalist key forwards - Curnow, McKay (plus Silvagni and Lemmey).
- we have one damaging medium forward utility - Martin.
- we have a variety of small forwards who can be damaging on their day, but can also go missing - Owies, Motlop, Cunners, Fogarty (plus Durdin and Honey).

The clear gap is that, if Martin misses for any reason (and history tells us it happens frequently), we're without a versatile contested player who can mark the ball on the lead, beat an opponent in a foot race, crumb the packs, carve through a stoppage, win a ball in dispute, break tackles, kick goals from anywhere up to 50m out, apply elite defensive pressure and stick tackles. We inevitably replace him with a player who does maybe half of that. It's either a depth small who can maybe crumb and apply defensive pressure, but lacks the ability to win the hard ball or kick goals from any kind of range. Or with a third tall forward who works his arse off, but lacks pace and genuine hurt factor.

When we've already got a high quality rebound game care of our backline balance (Weiters, Gov, Kemp, Newman, Saad, Boyd, Cincotta, Doc), we don't gain as much by replacing one of them with Williams. Our midfield doesn't run super deep, but there's also not going to be a starting spot for Williams there either. Using Williams in the forward line makes use of his skill set which is remarkably similar to Martin (obvious difference is that Martin is more of an aerial threat), keeps our marquee signing from a few years ago in the team, and gives us flexibility (ie. rotate him back at times, or swing him back to make room for a sub or to cover an injury).

Furthermore the high half forwards are quite often seen on the periphery of stoppages on the wing, or even the half back line (when the ball is coming in from the oppo kick-in). Starting Williams as a half forward doesn't mean he can't impact on transition. It just means we have him, generally, half a kick ahead of the play to be used as a handball or short kick outlet, or an overlap runner if one of our deeper forwards marks 60+m out.

 

[luke livingston seagull]

Fisher is only in the team right now because of injuries. He's not going to be a regular member of our back sex. Handy depth though.

Oh my

 

[Blue_Fusion]

The best part of the past few weeks, is we've upped his worth on the open market.

No, HE upped his worth...

 

[DangerousD]

I don't speak for the club. It's strictly my opinion. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how Williams is view internally. I could very well be way off the mark

I was just making a general claim, that if Zac wasn't an automatic selection in a certain position, then he should be moved on.

 

[Stamos]

I don't think it's as simple as that. Marchbank is currently playing the McGovern role. I don't for a second believe that we'd play Williams as the second or third tall. I believe Voss has settled on this. Marchy goes out when McGovern is fit.

Not so sure this is settled.
Marchy came in for Cowan (who came in for Boyd).
We went with all 4 of Weiters, Kemp, Gov and Marchy before Gov got injured (admittedly for only 1 game).

 

[JustaBattler]

I'd be looking at it from a balance perspective.

Defense:
- we have a slightly undersized but more than handy complement of talls - Weiters, Kemp, Gov, Marchy (plus Young and Durdin), and three of those starting talls generate serious drive on the rebound.
- we have a quality group of small defenders - Newman, Saad, Boyd, Doc, Cincotta (plus Cowan and Fisher), all of whom are can take territory on the run or with their kicking.

Midfield:
- we have one of the better contested mid groups in the comp - Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy (plus Dow).
- we have two absolutely elite inside/out mids - Walsh, Cerra (plus Carroll).
- we have an enviable collection of wingers - Acres, Hollands, Cottrell (plus Binns and LOB).

Forward:
- we have two Coleman medalist key forwards - Curnow, McKay (plus Silvagni and Lemmey).
- we have one damaging medium forward utility - Martin.
- we have a variety of small forwards who can be damaging on their day, but can also go missing - Owies, Motlop, Cunners, Fogarty (plus Durdin and Honey).

The clear gap is that, if Martin misses for any reason (and history tells us it happens frequently), we're without a versatile contested player who can mark the ball on the lead, beat an opponent in a foot race, crumb the packs, carve through a stoppage, win a ball in dispute, break tackles, kick goals from anywhere up to 50m out, apply elite defensive pressure and stick tackles. We inevitably replace him with a player who does maybe half of that. It's either a depth small who can maybe crumb and apply defensive pressure, but lacks the ability to win the hard ball or kick goals from any kind of range. Or with a third tall forward who works his arse off, but lacks pace and genuine hurt factor.

When we've already got a high quality rebound game care of our backline balance (Weiters, Gov, Kemp, Newman, Saad, Boyd, Cincotta, Doc), we don't gain as much by replacing one of them with Williams. Our midfield doesn't run super deep, but there's also not going to be a starting spot for Williams there either. Using Williams in the forward line makes use of his skill set which is remarkably similar to Martin (obvious difference is that Martin is more of an aerial threat), keeps our marquee signing from a few years ago in the team, and gives us flexibility (ie. rotate him back at times, or swing him back to make room for a sub or to cover an injury).

Furthermore the high half forwards are quite often seen on the periphery of stoppages on the wing, or even the half back line (when the ball is coming in from the oppo kick-in). Starting Williams as a half forward doesn't mean he can't impact on transition. It just means we have him, generally, half a kick ahead of the play to be used as a handball or short kick outlet, or an overlap runner if one of our deeper forwards marks 60+m out.

Team balance is an interesting topic- and I think we can only start really talking ( seriously) about it now that VOss ahs got teh team plauying genuine competitive football against any other team - huge achievement.

So my first heading regarding 'team balance' is mongrel.

I think that Voss has got the team as a team peforming to genuine finals standards in all three parts of the field as far as defensive pressure goes- and that has seen the team go on a winning streak. My view has always been that Carlton has lacked 'mongrel' as a team. To Voss's credit his persistance with focusing on all ground defensive/ pressure - pressure on the ball...( mongrel) serving as the primary KPI has firstly filtered out softness and secondly set minimum benchmarks for all the team to meet before being considered - this has served us well in covering for the injuries we have copped.

I also belive that injuries are a fact of life for any list that is being built up to genuine top4 congtending status - not on paper but in terms of week in week out performance levels - as a team. This is where he Voss's boring ( and to me unbelievable based on previous years performances) statements of 'next man up' come in.

However I have been proven wrong to doubt him - I have seen remarkable improvements in on ground peformance from players I have never rated as AFL qulaity in my own mind : Cottrell/Owies are two standout examples for me. Motlop ( still a young body) Hollands ( first year runt) are now both AFL quality role players. Cincotta and Kemp are prime examples in defensive structure...

So yeah - team balance now becomes a real issue because you don't want to be detracting from team pressure capability as this is the source of real success -team pressure acoross all areas of the ground.

Next heading - class

IF we can take team pressure as a given from now on - and I believe that is the case because the microscope will go on this before anything else when it comes to selection - we move on to the next bit - which is the players who have the skill, ability to win the 'important moments' or make a 'moment' - that is where class kicks in.

Charlie/Harry/Martin and Cuningham bring that in the forward lines and allow role players like: Motlop/Fogarty/Silvagni/Owies to play much better

Cripps, Walsh, Cerra bring that as on ballers and allow blokes liek Hewett/Kennedy and even Dow to concentrate on their strengths...they also allow rotations like Docherty to work and Cuningham / Fogarty)

Weitering, Newman, Saad , McGovern bring that in the defensive lines - they allow Kemp/Cincotta/to play their roles - you can add/Boyd and Cowan to teh mix of role players that work because of the class of the core.

I rate Williams ( like I did with Cuningham and Martin ) as a player who not only will deliver pressure - but also has factor X - class. Specifically, Williams is as tough as they come in one on one situations as a defender, but on teh rebound ( liek McGovern and a developing Kemp) has elite kicking and above average run....I genuinely rate him a much better defensive/rebound running option than Doc.

Thats my view on Williams- he is differentiated and wll play week in week out- because he nto only ticks the base level of performance expectations box- but is a player that can make things happen.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

So…we should pay $850k for a VFL HB? Or condemn Boyd to magoos? Obviously the contract hasn’t worked out the way we hoped but gots to play the hand you’re dealt.

That said, Williams if 100% is a gun, and I’d prefer him at HB and moving other around.

$850k is and was just a concoction.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I was just making a general claim, that if Zac wasn't an automatic selection in a certain position, then he should be moved on.

To be a bit nitpicky, what you said was:

If this is a view held by the club, then Zac should be moved on as a priority. His wage is speculated anywhere from $800,000 to $900,000, if he isn’t considered best 18 or even 22, move him on.

The view you responded to wasn't actually that he's not best 18 or best 22. It was that the backline was stacked and settled and that he could very well be utilised as a classy pressure forward who can contribute to the defensive press whilst also offering some attacking play.

You're right that if Zac isn't in our best 22 plans then we should look to move him on, though. You don't want that big an investment running around in the magoos. But before making that call, I reckon we should be giving serious consideration to what role he could excel at which would benefit the team. Half forward seems the most likely.

I love Cunners, but I'd challenge anyone to argue that a fit Williams couldn't play the same role Cunners is now with greater/more consistent output.

 

[Wickzki]

Not so sure this is settled.
Marchy came in for Cowan (who came in for Boyd).
We went with all 4 of Weiters, Kemp, Gov and Marchy before Gov got injured (admittedly for only 1 game).

Right. But then McGovern got injured and Marchy made the switch. I think Williams is ahead of Marchy as a small to medium defenders but for the third tall role Marchy gets the nod.

 

[Wickzki]

I was just making a general claim, that if Zac wasn't an automatic selection in a certain position, then he should be moved on.

Easier said than done. I think his versatility can be a weapon for us. We'd also be on the hook for a significant percentage of his salary moving forward, and although seems like Collingwood have had some success with that, it's not something I would particularly like to get into.i don't like the idea of paying Williams $600k to play for another club.

If he can get on the park he's going to give you similar value to what Blake Acres can at the minimum. If we believe acres is on 350,000 and we'd have to pay 600k to Williams to play elsewhere, it's not really worth it

 

[Stamos]

Right. But then McGovern got injured and Marchy made the switch. I think Williams is ahead of Marchy as a small to medium defenders but for the third tall role Marchy gets the nod.

Agree with that, but I'm not sure that we wouldn't go with all of Weiters, Kemp, Gov and Marchy amongst our 7 defenders.

 

[Wickzki]

Oh my

Speech to text inaccurately picks up a kiwi accent

 

[Forty3]

Williams contract is 800k + triggers
It’s obvious that the triggers have not been reached. So we can leave the extra 50-100k out of our estimations.
His first season was the most disappointing, he did not turn up with the mindset nor the fitness base of someone who deserves that kind of money. A switch flick in his second year and his attitude changed, the achilles injury was devastating but his work ethic to return by seasons end was huge. A completely different approach to what we’d seen prior, and his round 23 game I thought showed a lot of class.

His preseason this year was so very encouraging, a complete 180 from the player that turned up to Carlton first time around. The knee injury was so cruel, but other things he has endured this season have been even more shattering. Yet he’s been a consistent presence around the club, he’s been a massive support for a lot of the kids, especially Jessie.

I don’t believe there is any thought of trading him, and I would be very surprised if he wasn’t easily best 18 by the start of next year. There is a competitive hunger in him now that has not been present for large chunks of his AFL career.

Secondly, on the media narrative of trading Harry… my word. What a ridiculous notion.
Especially when referencing ‘This is Melbourne’s Geelong moment’…. Okay, let’s unpack that a little… the cats had a very strong team but only one key forward… so they went and paid Jeremy 400K more than what Harry is on and won a flag with two Key forwards…
Richmond won a chaos ball flag in 2016 but identified that they needed another key target to continue to challenge… so they went and spent 300k more a season than what Harry is on for a second key…

So in WHAT WORLD would Carlton want to trade a 25 year old Coleman medalist, to another serious premiership contender for a collection of picks… a collection of picks that we could potentially bundle together to pay a salary higher than what Harry has already agreed to, to try and find another ready max key tall?! Really lazy and idiotic media talk. And you know it’s ridiculously stupid when Mathew Lloyd (bless him) has to step in as the voice of reason.. truly idiotic narrative.

But it’s the same people who have been banging on and on about Carlton’s Salary cap squeeze for the last 3 years… well fellas, Stellas and those who identify as neither.. I’ve got news for you… 90% of our list has been signed up, fair contracts offers have been made with rather positive talks continuing with those player.. and although we don’t have much spare change, we are not in a position of needing to shed players.

If anything I could see us moving some picks around to try downgrade next years first for mores future points, we’ve added some cat B rooks, 1 or 2 at the draft this year and continue to build from within.

Trade Harry… my godfather. Should we trade Walsh and Cerra to because we beat the dees with out them? If we bundle up those three we could potentially get enough picks to have a draft like 2015 again, then in 2030 we could really set this side up to challenge for a flag.

 

[Gethelred]

So does 189cm rob monahan

Moves like Chad Warner.

 

[Stamos]

and although we don’t have much spare change, we are in a position of needing to shed players.

Just checking, did you mean to type we are NOT in a position of needing to shed players?

 

[Gethelred]

Now that is not a rumour, it's a fact

Facts thread - Rumours not allowed

Recently, our Bluemour thread has come under some severe criticism, and the rumour posters under attack, because some people don't seem to notice the difference between a rumour and a fact. So, here's the thread where posters can go to discuss facts. I'll get the ball rolling. The sun is in...

www.bigfooty.com