Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Noidnadroj]

Great careers at two clubs.

Spectacular seasons in awful sides, and in premiership ones.

Much more comprehensive. B&Fs, AAs, League MVPs, Coaches Association, Brownlow's. Total votes, statistical averages, games played. All tallied up to one side.

That's probably why the poll you were just quoted in, says what it does.

Nobody will ever match Martin’s 5 x years from 2016-2020, because it includes 3 x finals series where he was his team’s best mid AND best forward. 3 x flags. 3 x NS. 3 x Ayres awards. Then for H&A there’s 4 x AA and an average of 23 x Brownlow votes per season, so in the top handful of H&A players (if not the best) that period also.

And if the players MVP included finals he’d have won three of those as well, as he was almost unanimous as best player in the game after 2017, 2019 and 2020 post tearing three finals series to pieces.

If you’ve got the best 5-year period of anyone ever that’ll do me as far as GOAT debates go, as his best when the most was on the line is better than anyone’s.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

I mean he had a stack of finals in the equivalent years where Martin will be wearing his slippers when footy's being played. As well as playing a bunch in junior years where Martin again wasn't playing any.

Their roles in finals weren't really like for like during their peak because Ablett was a pure midfielder. Martin's role was more like an SJ/Chapman and yes he was a better player than both. Ablett was closer to a Judd, Williams or Pendlebury role than the one Martin had in the 2017-2020 finals as a collective. So yeah his goal/assist numbers aren't as high when SJ/Chapman shared the forward/attacking mid destroyer role.

Ablett was predominantly forward in his last 8 finals… kicked 3 goals.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Meteoric Rise]

132 contested marks for a 182cm modern day midfielder is pretty good for a non-event. So were the years in the 50s %-wise for offensive 1v1 win rate. I'm sure these numbers line up with a Nick Daicos.

From his 445 goals and 261 goal assists, plenty were from contested situations.

Just about all Ablett's finals goals in the clip below. Loads of classy finishes. Very very few of them were contested and the overwhelming majority were from handball receives. If you compare that to Martin's finals goals the latter's are overwhelmingly won in contests or kicked under immediate physical pressure - and also an array of great finishes.

There is no comparison and this is exactly why Martin made Richmond so good in those finals.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Admittedly it only went through to May but Martin was not featuring in that many AA teams

2019 Rolling All Australian

hes had an excellent month, keeps up the form hes gonna be tough to leave out Hes had an excellent year. Leading the AFL in intercept marks. Has totally taken over from Doedee while still being able to take on the bigger blokes.

www.bigfooty.com

In the last 9 x H&A games of 2019 (after May) Martin got 16 Brownlow votes with 5 x BOG’s. He came 5th in the Brownlow and 5 in coach’s votes. It was a weird oversight … if you can find a phantom AA team at end of 2019 that didn’t include Martin I’d be staggered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

We've had the same 80 page discussion 10 times before. In fact we could essentially just quote every single post from a year ago. There's not any point unless you just want a war of attrition.

As for the best midfielder this century, the poll posted many times is definitive. Buddy and GAJ are the clear top 2 for players this century if you extend it to all positions. That's about it, no matter how many times the annual protest from just a small pocket of diehard Richmond supporters takes place.

Finals:: Martin >> GAJ >>>> Buddy

GF: Martin >>>>>>>>>GAJ >> Buddy

He’ll have to live with being better in the big games.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

I wouldn't have Martin as 2nd either.
Carlton Judd was better than Dusty and he wasn't as good as Eagles Judd.

Which final hurt the most when Dusty was breaking Cat hearts? 2017 QF breaking a 13-game losing streak? Was his fend of Stewart your favourite or his 4 x goal assists?

He wasn’t at his peak in 2019 PF … but still lifted massively in second half to finish with 20, 2 again and 9 x score involvements. I loved his takedown of Danger after his dive on HT … Danger actually looked scared despite being 3-goals up… unsurprisingly Dangerman was unsighted in second half.

His 2020 GF. It’s cruel … I won’t go there, it’s not fair.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

132 contested marks for a 182cm modern day midfielder is pretty good for a non-event. So were the years in the 50s %-wise for offensive 1v1 win rate. I'm sure these numbers line up with a Nick Daicos.

From his 445 goals and 261 goal assists, plenty were from contested situations.

Please provide me your list of finals series from the 10 or so he played where GAJ was the teams best midfielder AND forward. Must be a few in there.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Meteoric Rise]

In the last 9 x H&A games of 2019 (after May) Martin got 16 Brownlow votes with 5 x BOG’s. He came 5th in the Brownlow and 5 in coach’s votes. It was a weird oversight … if you can find a phantom AA team at end of 2019 that didn’t include Martin I’d be staggered.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

The funny thing was the 2019 finals series kicked off with the Richmond v Briz final up there. As Dusty slotted his 3rd or 4th amazing goal for the game(of 6 total) Brayshaw on commentary in one of his finer moments pronounced famously:

"Dustin Martin is tearing yet another final apart." See at 3:38 in the following clip.





The amazing thing is Dusty had another 4 x finals BOG's including 2 in Grand Finals after this was said.

 

[H00t]

Finals:: Martin >> GAJ >>>> Buddy

GF: Martin >>>>>>>>>GAJ >> Buddy

He’ll have to live with being better in the big games.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

You say this yet the best 3 games finals games out of this lot are Buddy’s.

07 elimination final where he kicked 7 including the winner. 08 QF where he destroyed lake and kicked 8.

Plus 2014 pf where he had 23 disposals kicked 5 had 4 goal assists and 15 score involvements.

In 2012 also averaged over 20 disposals, 3 goals, 1 goal assists (while also averaging 4 behinds, if only he’d kicked straight) while his team was far from dominant and he was only one keeping them in it.

For all this talk of Martin being dominant he doesn’t even get in Franklin’s ball park when he was up and running.

 

[Chronz]

GAJ was a freak of nature and did it all year long.
Dusty not at the same level during the year but was a goat finals specialist.

Eyyy. I'm sure Geelong and Richmond supporters were very happy with their services.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I think if you ask all the 2024 draftees who was better out of Ablett jnr and Dustin, most would say Dustin.
That's what players want, to win finals and dominate in them.

 

[RUNVS]

I think if you ask all the 2024 draftees who was better out of Ablett jnr and Dustin, most would say Dustin.
That's what players want, to win finals and dominate in them.

Any evidence of that?

77.7% of bigfooty members say Ablett is the best midfielder of the 21st century and only 3.4% say Martin is.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Any evidence of that?

77.7% of bigfooty members say Ablett is the best midfielder of the 21st century and only 3.4% say Martin is.

Martin is a forward/mid, not a pure midfielder.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Which final hurt the most when Dusty was breaking Cat hearts? 2017 QF breaking a 13-game losing streak? Was his fend of Stewart your favourite or his 4 x goal assists?

He wasn’t at his peak in 2019 PF … but still lifted massively in second half to finish with 20, 2 again and 9 x score involvements. I loved his takedown of Danger after his dive on HT … Danger actually looked scared despite being 3-goals up… unsurprisingly Dangerman was unsighted in second half.

His 2020 GF. It’s cruel … I won’t go there, it’s not fair.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

When you've seen your club win on the big stage, win on that last Saturday, and dominate football for 20 years then this schtick has no effect. We've won a lot of games this century, occasionally we lose. Playing the "which final" game is meh and rather irrelevant.

How about being a gracious winner.

 

[terrybull]

Just about all Ablett's finals goals in the clip below. Loads of classy finishes. Very very few of them were contested and the overwhelming majority were from handball receives. If you compare that to Martin's finals goals the latter's are overwhelmingly won in contests or kicked under immediate physical pressure - and also an array of great finishes.

There is no comparison and this is exactly why Martin made Richmond so good in those finals.

Why contest the ball if you are able to get yourself free? Reminds me of Kevin Bartlett (the best Tiger player I’ve ever seen) who hardly ever got tackled or have to contest for the ball, but cunning enough to get the ball and goal.

Anyway it’s hard to compare Dusty and GAJ as they have two different playing styles.

So for the ultimate GOAT, let it be Hayden Bunton as nobody can prove otherwise (no footage and those that saw him - their memory has faded).

 

[Gavin Excell]

When you've seen your club win on the big stage, win on that last Saturday, and dominate football for 20 years then this schtick has no effect. We've won a lot of games this century, occasionally we lose. Playing the "which final" game is meh and rather irrelevant.

How about being a gracious winner.

I feel embarrassed for some of the Tiger fans

 

[RUNVS]

I feel embarrassed for some of the Tiger fans

I will stand by my comments in the past about Richmond fans being the worst "winners" of the 21st century.

 

[STPer18]

Yet somehow Goodwin is a better player than Dusty because of All Australians, now that's real stupidity

Just use Joel Selwood next time, six All-Australians to Dustie's four, and four premierships to Dustie's three. 21st century GOAT debate has been settled.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Just use Joel Selwood next time, six All-Australians to Dustie's four, and four premierships to Dustie's three. 21st century GOAT debate has been settled.

And Selwood only had 2 or 3 good years, gifted most All Australians due to playing for Geelong, and was carried to all his premierships, Geelong were a finals joke when he was in his prime

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Love our Tiger friends who maintain that AAs are subjective groupthink awards while NSs are definitely not.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Love our Tiger friends who maintain that AAs are subjective groupthink awards while NSs are definitely not.

More people will be caring about Norm Smith's than All Australians 20 years from now

 

[Outtatym]

Love our Tiger friends who maintain that AAs are subjective groupthink awards while NSs are definitely not.

Pretty much. Bachar was robbed in one of the grannys

 

[Mr Meow]

I will stand by my comments in the past about Richmond fans being the worst "winners" of the 21st century.

"If we come in here and bash every other modern champ each year, and proclaim in 20 or 30 years neutrals will change their mind, we will win eventually"

As bloody-minded as it is delusional.

You'll notice there aren't any insecure types doing the same with an Ablett or Franklin thread, because the consensus is established and frankly there isn't the same kind of manic insecurity.

There are other ways to get validation. Why they'd rather be laughed out the door time and time again, I'll never know.

 

[STPer18]

And Selwood only had 2 or 3 good years, gifted most All Australians due to playing for Geelong, and was carried to all his premierships, Geelong were a finals joke when he was in his prime

6>4
4>3

All-Australian in 2009 & 2010 as a 3rd/4th year player, BnF in 2010 as a 4th year player. ELITE from the get go!

 

[Mr Meow]

6>4
4>3

All-Australian in 2009 & 2010 as a 3rd/4th year player, BnF in 2010 as a 4th year player. ELITE from the get go!

Top 6 in the League MVP in his 2nd season! Premiership captain in his last.