Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[Pessimistic]

As mentioned before, like share dealers you need those people of opposing views to offer up the bargains you need. Not too upset some clubs are going the other tack for the same reason

Theres less an less over there, or at least when they are jetisonning handy players they know to ask for more draft currrency =multiple picks cos the players in question are unlikely to want to go to a team with early draft picks

 

[sr36]

See you call it a proper rebuild like it is the right way to do it... Lions, Suns, Blues all went down the 'proper' rebuild path and spent the better part of a decade down the bottom. It is one way to rebuild a list but that does not make it the right way, it comes with risks just like the path we are taking does.

It's interesting that the two teams who entrenched the idea of building from the draft, Hawthorn and Geelong, by building juggernauts on the back of a couple of really strong draft hauls, are the two teams that have thumbed their nose at the draft and decided it is for mug punters.

Maybe they're both shrewd investors who used picks back when they were undervalued and are now selling them because they're overvalued.

 

[Iceman!]

It's interesting that the two teams who entrenched the idea of building from the draft, Hawthorn and Geelong, by building juggernauts on the back of a couple of really strong draft hauls, are the two teams that have thumbed their nose at the draft and decided it is for mug punters.

Maybe they're both shrewd investors who used picks back when they were undervalued and are now selling them because they're overvalued.

Yeah this has been a discussion point on the Hawks board a little this season. It seems we tried to cash in while picks have held a ton of value and we have tried to use that by getting established talent in but over the past year or two it seems the value of picks has diminished a little.

It will be interesting because the result of the Cats and Hawks rebuilds may shape how top teams look at the trade/Draft period going forward. If one of them succeed it may become the new blue print for teams at the top, if both fail it may show that the Draft is still clearly the way to build a list.

Not sure how it will end up but i think it is really fascinating seeing how it is going to play out.

 

[Baird]

The next time the Dogs play the Hawks you’ll have to face Mitchell, Patton, Frost, Impey, pick 11, Maginness and a whole lot of other stuff.

Oh wow, The dogs must be trembling

 

[sr36]

Yeah this has been a discussion point on the Hawks board a little this season. It seems we tried to cash in while picks have held a ton of value and we have tried to use that by getting established talent in but over the past year or two it seems the value of picks has diminished a little.

It will be interesting because the result of the Cats and Hawks rebuilds may shape how top teams look at the trade/Draft period going forward. If one of them succeed it may become the new blue print for teams at the top, if both fail it may show that the Draft is still clearly the way to build a list.

Not sure how it will end up but i think it is really fascinating seeing how it is going to play out.

I think Hawthorn, Geelong and Collingwood identified a few years ago that late first and second round picks in particular get you better value at the trade table than you get at the draft and thus they've been valuing those picks differently to many other clubs.

 

[sr36]

No the difference is you bust on a top 10 pick and you wasted an entire year of a rebuild and set it back 12 months. We brought in the elite talent through the trade period and hoped to land some gems with the later picks. Of course it is a risk most Hawk fans are willing to acknowledge that, the risk of banking on highly rated 18 years olds exist to and clearly Hawthorn are experimenting with a rebuild model that minimizes that.

I tend to agree; however, the risk that the Hawks have added in to the mix is blokes with dodgy bodies. That's where I reckon it's going to fail.

 

[Iceman!]

I tend to agree; however, the risk that the Hawks have added in to the mix is blokes with dodgy bodies. That's where I reckon it's going to fail.

Yeah it is a concern but the only one with a dodgy body that we really gave anything up for was O'meara. I think risk/reward on the rest of them is strongly in our favour.

 

[sr36]

Yeah it is a concern but the only one with a dodgy body that we really gave anything up for was O'meara. I think risk/reward on the rest of them is strongly in our favour.

In terms of trade yes. But there's a fair bit of opportunity cost in terms of salary cap and list spots.

Patton crossed a line in my eyes. When he did his latest knee, he was coming off his only good year of AFL and before he did his knee in the middle of that year, he was playing awfully and looked like a dinosaur. He was Mason Cox, but got his hands to less and thus brought less to ground. I personally think the pick for him was fair value, but GWS should also be paying half his salary.

 

[Cadillac]

Even in the midst of not being at the top anymore, Wingard and Impey had no hesitation in picking Hawthorn over the Bulldogs. lol

The next time the Dogs play the Hawks you’ll have to face Mitchell, Patton, Frost, Impey, pick 11, Maginness and a whole lot of other stuff.

And thank christ they didn't nominate us.


2 Months ago you were saying we would be facing Coniglio next time we played you guys. What went wrong?

 

[Pessimistic]

And thank christ they didn't nominate us.


2 Months ago you were saying we would be facing Coniglio next time we played you guys. What went wrong?

Not getting Tom Lynch or Coniglio, Mitchell and Impey getting badly injured (even though they were the 'healthiest imports) Busts with Vickery and O'Rourne. Cyril retiring early
Clearly not every thing has gone right, and that's just recently

 

[Furn2]

The biggest factor in footy these days is synergy, having an effective gameplan with every player on the same page.

Its what thrust Richmond from 12th to being an off night from a 3peat, sure they added Caddy and Prestia who are very good players but not 12th to 1st good, there probably isn't 2 such players.

The Hawks have added mature talent but it still takes time to gel, the sides that beat gws and WC late in the year had only 7 player from the 2015 GF team.

There are only 13 of 47 players still on the list from 2015. That's a huge turnover. 3/4s of the list.

That's why we saw the inconsistency last year with some great wins when it clicked and some bad losses when it didn't.

When a team goes the youth road they are given 5 years plus to get it together but even with mature recruit you still need time to gel.

Having said that, that time has passed or will soon so if the Hawks dont play finals/contend in 2020 and contend in 2021 then you can come back and say it hasnt worked but right now it hasn't been given a chance.

 

[matey]

For Hawthorn, 9th is cooked. I can't believe I'm seeing the day when the Hawks are content with 9th. That's St Kilda or Fremantle thinking.

That’s pretty bad .... l was gutted I want to see 15 premierships and can’t do that missing finals!

 

[sr36]

That’s pretty bad .... l was gutted I want to see 15 premierships and can’t do that missing finals!

One every 4 years over the last half a century. Unless you're on life support, I'm betting that you get your chance to see it.

 

[theBigB]

The biggest factor in footy these days is synergy, having an effective gameplan with every player on the same page.

Its what thrust Richmond from 12th to being an off night from a 3peat, sure they added Caddy and Prestia who are very good players but not 12th to 1st good, there probably isn't 2 such players.

The Hawks have added mature talent but it still takes time to gel, the sides that beat gws and WC late in the year had only 7 player from the 2015 GF team.

There are only 13 of 47 players still on the list from 2015. That's a huge turnover. 3/4s of the list.

That's why we saw the inconsistency last year with some great wins when it clicked and some bad losses when it didn't.

When a team goes the youth road they are given 5 years plus to get it together but even with mature recruit you still need time to gel.

Having said that, that time has passed or will soon so if the Hawks dont play finals/contend in 2020 and contend in 2021 then you can come back and say it hasnt worked but right now it hasn't been given a chance.

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

 

[matey]

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

The doggies had an awesome full back .... Brian Lake. He ended up with 3 premierships!

 

[TylerDurden]

The doggies had an awesome full back .... Brian Lake. He ended up with 3 premierships!

 

[Iceman!]

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

Oh well currently Fremantle are just about the only team who has a player as good as Dustin Martin so lets just pack it up and wait for Richmond to let us have a chance.

 

[Hawkk]

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

I didnt watch Kelvin Moore (triple premiership player) but I did get the tail end of Chris Langford's career (4 x premiership player) and Brian Lake naturally did the hat trick.

Chris Langford in his prime had to play on the likes of Ablett Senior, Lockett and Modra. Who does Rance play on?

These foolish blanket statements rightfully deserve the dustbin Bay 13 treatment.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

What a strange post.

West Coast do not have a player as good as Martin either and they won the flag last year. Collingwood don't either and they thrashed them in the prelim.

No one had a player as good as Gary Ablett Jnr in his prime and Gold Coast have never even played a final.

Hell, Richmond didn't have a full back as good as Rance in 2019 and they won the flag.

1-2 players never make a team. If they did, the best player in the comp would always win their team the flag. This rarely happens.

Besides, it has been widely acknowledged that the Richmond list (particularly in 2017) is not better than the rest of the comp. Their game plan and execution is an essential component to them being the best.

(and BTW, I would argue that Kel Moore and even Langford are in the same conversation as Rance).

 

[Gavin Excell]

its only subtle. mostly similar.

on difference I can think of is Cats more likely to get youngsters into the side as soon as possible (yet still stay top 4) they seem to stay longer at box hill for the Hawks

but it is 4 years longer since the last flag for the cats

Yes correct

In that time Cats made 3 preliminary finals for 3 losses, only one of them a competitive loss

Is that considered “succeeding”?

 

[Pessimistic]

Yes correct

In that time Cats made 3 preliminary finals for 3 losses, only one of them a competitive loss

Is that considered “succeeding”?

With a little luck, it could have been.

We have a rivalry with the cats, but they have our respect

 

[TheFourPillars]

Yes correct

In that time Cats made 3 preliminary finals for 3 losses, only one of them a competitive loss

Is that considered “succeeding”?

This a rhetorical question the answer is no Gav already knows that

 

[Furn2]

Richmond also have the personnel. Hawthorn right now do not have a player as good as Dustin Martin, and no, Mitchell is not.

Hawthorn have also never had a full-back as good as Alex Rance in their history.

So you picked them to go 1-3-1 in 2016 ? they had most of the same personnel back then.

You must have made a lot of money.

I'm not saying the Hawks have all the pieces to contend i'm saying we don't know yet either way, but people saying they came 9th and aren't young so they cant improve are just guessing.

Also teams win flags not individuals, you dont need the best player in the comp to win one.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

For Hawthorn, 9th is cooked. I can't believe I'm seeing the day when the Hawks are content with 9th. That's St Kilda or Fremantle thinking.

#fail

 

[Gavin Excell]

This a rhetorical question the answer is no Gav already knows that

Yes but would hawks take that as vindication of strategy if next 4 years resulted in 3 top 4 finishes?