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News Cats to go defensive
- Thread starter Pure_Ownage
- Start date
- Tagged users None
meto
Norm Smith Medallist
Ummm you do realize Stokes was our highest scoring forward of the finals series 2010
Have you ever thought that just maybe in the games Pods and Johno were blanketed, they were the only sizable players up forward the opposition had to shut down??
Obviously this allows for the extra opportunities that would obviously fall to the small forwards given the ball would be redirected around the flanks and brought in low.
Don't mind a small power fwd like Chapman, but we only should have room for one other smaller type the other 4 should be med/tall types for the best forward six.
Like to see Ling up forward or Bartell.
rocker_oz33
TheBrownDog
l dont mind if the cats go a little more defensive.but l hope they turn into how the crows tried to go defensive and lost alot of games and looked $hithouse.l hope the boys still take the game on when needed to.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Mooney, Hawkins, shaw they played
Don't stress I'm certain at least one of Duncan or Menzel will get games on the forward line this year.I'd like to see Jimmy play where he won the Brownlow in the centre, and Lingy will probable roll in and out of forward line as required.
I'd like to see the pink pig pick up the tag at centre bounces then go immediately forward to try and create the loose man,with one of the other mids picking up the tag.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
- Thread starter
- #31
Good good good! I like!
Hopefully they can do it (step up and push them out)
Watch for a big NAB Cup from Mitch
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
- Thread starter
- #32
Nobody gets a pass, everyone should be scrutinised. That said, they both had good years.
Looking at goals alone when judging forwards is too narrow a stat without context IMO.
No doubt Stokes has kicked goals in big games however the problem is even when he does his tackle count isn't up, his inside 50's aren't up (byrnes always outperforms him in this area despite being a limited player), his disposal isn't super hurtful, and he isn't creating goals for others. When you look at SJ and Pods and others, no doubt I'd like them to kick more goals in some of the big games, but even when they don't, they still make a contribution to the side in these other areas, which Stokes doesn't. And also, as I saw sitting right in front of him in the prelim, Stokes often pays no respect to his opponent and won't go near him. All of that adds up to Stokes in big games being rocks or diamonds, he'll be largely responsible for us winning, no doubt, but if not, he'll be largely responsible for us losing, and I doubt Scott will tolerate that inconsistency.
Also, Stokes has far more competition for his spot than either SJ or Pods do.
jimmy.h
Club Legend
Stokes is a really average footballer(and I think that is being kind to him). I personally don't think he should play another senior game. The fact that he was our only player to consistently contribute on the score sheet in big games is a pretty severe indictment of our forward half performance in 2010.
Johnson and Podsiadly had good seasons by beating up on crappy players from crappy teams. To a large extent this simply mirrors the team as a whole and most players. And this is all well and good to an extent. I enjoyed watching us smash teams like Brisbane and Port but a team that belts the shit teams and then wilts against the good teams won't win a lot of premierships.
I acknowledge the SJ does a fair bit beyond kicking goals (fantastic goal assists numbers) but during 2010 you got a distinct feeling that he was contributing a lot in games when he was playing on hacks and the midfield was dominating and not doing much at all when we were up against it. Johnson is a talented enough player that he should be turning games around himself, not need the rest of the team to get going. When was the last time he played well in what could be considered a 'big game'? Doggies 09? He was abysmal in both the 08 and 09 GFs and seems to have carried some sort of big game problem out of them.
Pods simply wasn't up to it against the good sides. He certainly wasn't helped by some disgusting efforts and stupid strategy up the ground, but he didn't make enough of his opportunities when he got them and, like the rest of the forward line, wasn't able to stop the opposition backmen from having significant impact. I don't think he was any worse at this than any other forward (the only time I thought a key forward played well in a big game was Mooney against Hawthorn the 1st time) but I don't think he was any better.
The forward line over the next couple of years should be interesting. I think the core of the midfield (Jimmy, Selwood, Kel) and backline (Scarlo, Harry, Borris) are still pretty solid. With the forwards the only obvious selections are Johnson and Chappy/Varcoe rotating through the midfield. The remaining positions are pretty much up for grabs (and I personally wouldn't guarantee a spot for Johnson). Do players like Mooney, Pods, Stokes and Byrnes justify keeping the younger players out? Will Hawkins ever really command a key forward spot? Will Brown make it at AFL level?
- Nov 7, 2010
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When I first read the article this afternoon I thought P.O's going to go in to raptures over this,you didn't let me down.
This is the way things should work, and I agree with what you said somewhere else, that this was not policy last year the young blokes just filled in till the old hands recovered from what ever then got the brush regardless of form.
Agree with a lot of that though a little harsh in stokes and Stevie. Stokes shredded at SANFL and has played some great games for us but yes needs a little more defense in his mindset. That said though, some players just aren't defensive and are there to attack to it's a tricky situation. Agree that Pods was a flat track bully last year, though on debut he jagged a couple at Subiaco which shows that he has the potential to step up outside of an environment where the entire crowd is cheering you on to slot majors. Would love to see the hawk come on too. In essence, I just think a small change to the gamestyle and a change in mindset will be sufficient. Now that players know that their style is no longer good enough to account for the other teams they should realise that they'll have to be slightly more proactive rather than just relying on their one-way gamestyle and players just being able to deliver the goods. The pies and saints games this year showed this in many respects
- Nov 7, 2010
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Interesting take on S.J jimmy where was one game last year were Johnson was looking to kick his six'th or seven'th in the last quarter,the game we already over and he was working as hard as Ive seen him to get that goal.I remember thinking at the time why don't we see more of this
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
- Thread starter
- #37
Interesting points Jimmy. While I don't agree with all of them, some of your criticisms particularly of the forward line in general are reasonably spot on.
To be honest until we see the new game style we won't know whether our forwards are really as good as they need to be or not, because as you say Pods and the others had to deal with some really slow and unpredictable work up the ground instead of the service they should get. While I do agree he could have done better in big games, for me one of the facts that stood out in the skilled games is they were prepared to kick it quick and long to him, even when he didn't have space, and sometimes had multiple opponents, and back him to win it, which most of the time he did, yet in the big games, the guys upfield weren't prepared to do the same, i.e. get it in quickly to Pods Mooney and co.
Re Stokes, for me the thing other than the inconsistency of effort, which is poor laziness that a new coach shouldn't tolerate, is the competition he has for his spot. I can't not see one of Menzel, Duncan, Motlop and so on, not taking his spot by the middle of the year...they have loads of talent, and you would think will be more prepared to put in defensively. Johnson won't be dropped, and Pods doesn't have that same level of competition for his spot, at least not yet anyway.
To be honest until we see the new game style we won't know whether our forwards are really as good as they need to be or not, because as you say Pods and the others had to deal with some really slow and unpredictable work up the ground instead of the service they should get. While I do agree he could have done better in big games, for me one of the facts that stood out in the skilled games is they were prepared to kick it quick and long to him, even when he didn't have space, and sometimes had multiple opponents, and back him to win it, which most of the time he did, yet in the big games, the guys upfield weren't prepared to do the same, i.e. get it in quickly to Pods Mooney and co.
Re Stokes, for me the thing other than the inconsistency of effort, which is poor laziness that a new coach shouldn't tolerate, is the competition he has for his spot. I can't not see one of Menzel, Duncan, Motlop and so on, not taking his spot by the middle of the year...they have loads of talent, and you would think will be more prepared to put in defensively. Johnson won't be dropped, and Pods doesn't have that same level of competition for his spot, at least not yet anyway.
I don't think it was just a case of not wanting to get it inside 50 quickly to Pods and co and backing him in when he was out numbered. Rather, I think they were under that much pressure (probably what they hadn't experienced since 2005-6) that they were forced into mistakes, lateral handpasses and god knows what else. Let us never speak of the prelim again. What prelim?
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
- Thread starter
- #39
Probably a fair point. Hopefully if we improve in this area we will get the benefit of being able to move the ball forward quickly. While we are known as an attacking team, all the handball actually made us far slower in ball movement than we needed to be.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
- Thread starter
- #40
Exactly, agree.
Was not one occasion where a senior player was dropped for a younger player (the only occasion was when Mackie got booted but even then wasn't for a younger player in form like THunt)....if you can't name at least one occasion where it happens at your club each year, it means there's something wrong with the selection policies. While we all have attachments to our long serving players, if a young player actually forces an older one out based on legitimate good form, that is a good thing for the club as it means more competition to keep everyone on their toes, and that the list is improving and progressing.
Good news. Too often last year many of our players were waiting in the wings *cough*AblettJudas*cough* for someone else to put their body on the line, win the ball and then conveniently pass it to them for a cheap easy possie.
That was okay when we were in full flight, relatively injury free and at their peak of their powers.
With the evolution of the colonwood swarming press (or whatever that pretentious d1ckhead malthouse calls it, roman cage/box fighting or some shit like that?) there needs to be a new mindset among the boys that it is all well and good to run and attack *cough*MattyStokes*cough* when you have possession of the pill.
But the same effort, if not doubled, must also be applied when you don’t have it to win the bloody leathery thing back. I don’t wanna see and tolerate any half-arsed pretend chasing from any player that steps on the ground no more. That’s how I interpret Chris’ message anyway.
Good news indeed.
That was okay when we were in full flight, relatively injury free and at their peak of their powers.
With the evolution of the colonwood swarming press (or whatever that pretentious d1ckhead malthouse calls it, roman cage/box fighting or some shit like that?) there needs to be a new mindset among the boys that it is all well and good to run and attack *cough*MattyStokes*cough* when you have possession of the pill.
But the same effort, if not doubled, must also be applied when you don’t have it to win the bloody leathery thing back. I don’t wanna see and tolerate any half-arsed pretend chasing from any player that steps on the ground no more. That’s how I interpret Chris’ message anyway.
Good news indeed.
Geelongsince1984
Team Captain
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I think that going defensive isnt bad, we know geelong can score so retuning the defensive side would be pretty good, they would be like collingwood last year, except score more choke teams and pile on the score.. could get another flag.
choke teams and pile on the score.. could get another flag.
Couldn't agree more. He's had more than enough chances, and just doesn't produce when it matters. Time and time again. Give me Menzel or Duncan anyday.
Sorry totally disagree with that. It's become almost an assumed fact that Johnson was terrible in that grand final but he was the equal highest possession winner on the ground. Maybe he wasn't BOG, but he certainly wasn't abysmal. We had much bigger problems that day than Johnson.
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Got to agree with Jimmy h regarding Johnson,turning in to a down hill skier.
Don't care how many possessions he had 2008 G.F he had no influence.
2009 G.F he was dismal.
2010 P.F again no influence.
No excuses this bloke is supposed to be our class forward a game breaker. needs to stand up and lead from the front.
So if your going to talk about players who don't produce when it matters add one S.JOHNSON to that list.
Don't know about abysmal but his stats flattered him in the 08 GF. He went kick chasing and pretty much ignored our game plan. He had minimal impact on the match.
He wasn't exactly by himself there.
- Nov 7, 2010
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You won't get any argument on that.B.B
To be fair he wasn't fit in the 2009 GF but yeah he seems to be pretty inconsistent when the screws tighten. I'm just not sure what you guys expect though. He is an enigmatic, creative forward. This is why he is so dangerous. If we can teach him to be more defensive we might risk losing what he is in the side for
One thing about SJ is that he is actually a very good contested player....ridiculously hard to match up on due to his ability on ground and through the air. I think we have perhaps curtailed him by making him too much of an offensive opportunist....i think a lot of that resonated from the 08' GF loss where he picked up 30 odd possessions but was criticised for not being as effective up forward.
I think you will find with SJ that if you give him a bit more scope to go after the pill he will be able to produce a far more consistent performance in the bigger games. I know that he is a competitive beast too, so he will be hurting from some disappointing finals series....this could be a big year!
ninjacat
Debutant
Good post, jimmy.h.
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