List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion 2023

[Apex36]

If there's at least another club interested and that club has a higher pre-season draft pick than us, along with a lot more national draft picks, it's not getting done for our 3rd pick (currently pick 74). It MIGHT get done for pick our second round pick (tied to Carlton's position so about 35).

If you’ve been living under a rock for the past 20 years, here’s how it works:

Depth player requests trade to a specific club.

Other interested clubs become irrelevant.

Player is traded for token pick.


The value you’re putting on a player who has 10 games to his name in 3 years in the system is actually staggering. For context, Bobby Hill was traded after 41 games in 3 years for what you’re suggesting Khamis is worth.
Lipinski was traded after 50+ games in 5 years, despite the dogs claiming they wanted to keep him and offering a contract, for a third round pick.
There’s just no way on earth Khamis attracts the kind of currency you’re suggesting.

 

[No SPIN]

Speed, size, kicking, decision making

One of those can be improved with a strong off season. I like macrae and have always been a supporter but for him to just suddenly become capable of playing mid in a flag team is a long shot as it stands. Mids need to be elite for the most part. You’ve got to ask, with macrae playing mid, is that a flag team? It’s probably simpler to look at other mids his age in the comp playing and see how far off he is. E.g Gulden.

Speed- same as Adams
Size - he’s 188cm therefore taller than Adams
Kicking - he’s proficient on both sides unlike Adams
Decision making - no worse than Adams and showed good signs in the Bombers game.
So if Adams is a benchmark then Macrae can get there.

 

[Apex36]

Speed- same as Adams
Size - he’s 188cm therefore taller than Adams
Kicking - he’s proficient on both sides unlike Adams
Decision making - no worse than Adams and showed good signs in the Bombers game.
So if Adams is a benchmark then Macrae can get there.

Height isn’t the only metric for size. Adams has a good 5-6kg on Fin despite the height difference.
His kicking as far as I’ve seen is no better than Adams’, as is his decision making.

So essentially he’s a lighter version of Adams who has less ability to win the ball (Adams was averaging 21 disposals and 4 clearances at AFL level by year 2).

I agree that Fin can get there. He’s had significant setbacks over the past couple of years. But there’s enough question marks there for people to have legitimate doubts too.

 

[partypie]

Khamis sounds very good, which begs the (not loaded at all) question; why isn’t he getting a game at the Dogs?

If I recall correctly the last recruit we picked up off the Doggies also wasn't getting a game because of the coach in a team which was in desperate need of help down back.

Might be a case of history repeating itself, although Khamis being a bit of a 'tweener (to use the American term) in a team that already had Bailey Dale and Bailey Williams as best 22 locks (playing 72 and 68 games respectively over the past three seasons) might have been more of a factor (in comparison to the flat out disregard Bevo had for Roughy in his last couple of seasons at the kennel).

Similar story up forward for them since Jamarra broke into the AFL best 22 last year, especially this year after also bringing in Lobb.

 

[gouki88]

Speed, size, kicking, decision making

One of those can be improved with a strong off season. I like macrae and have always been a supporter but for him to just suddenly become capable of playing mid in a flag team is a long shot as it stands. Mids need to be elite for the most part. You’ve got to ask, with macrae playing mid, is that a flag team? It’s probably simpler to look at other mids his age in the comp playing and see how far off he is. E.g Gulden.

Is he a poor decision-maker? I’ve always thought him a fine decision-maker myself.

His size isn’t necessarily a deficiency for me. It’s just middle of the pack - not huge, but not small enough to be moved aside with ease.

His speed & kicking are pretty legit worries. But, if he just specialises on burrowing and extracting with hands, I think he’ll have a place

 

[gouki88]

Height isn’t the only metric for size. Adams has a good 5-6kg on Fin despite the height difference.
His kicking as far as I’ve seen is no better than Adams’, as is his decision making.

So essentially he’s a lighter version of Adams who has less ability to win the ball (Adams was averaging 21 disposals and 4 clearances at AFL level by year 2).

I agree that Fin can get there. He’s had significant setbacks over the past couple of years. But there’s enough question marks there for people to have legitimate doubts too.

I don’t think he’s as quick as Adams personally. I think his kicking is better (not a high bar), but I think Adams is wrongly grouped with Pendles, Mitchell & Lipinski on speed

 

[No SPIN]

Height isn’t the only metric for size. Adams has a good 5-6kg on Fin despite the height difference.
His kicking as far as I’ve seen is no better than Adams’, as is his decision making.

So essentially he’s a lighter version of Adams who has less ability to win the ball (Adams was averaging 21 disposals and 4 clearances at AFL level by year 2).

I agree that Fin can get there. He’s had significant setbacks over the past couple of years. But there’s enough question marks there for people to have legitimate doubts too.

Kicking ?
Macrae is very proficient and natural on both sides compared to Adam’s.
Size - he will add more Kgs as he matures like all players.
He’s around the same weight as Adams at the same age.

The question is are those doubts great enough to trade him? To me he’s just another Murphy- where people had doubts but he ultimately proved himself.

 

[Apex36]

Kicking ?
Macrae is very proficient and natural on both sides compared to Adam’s.

Doesn’t pass the eye test or stats on this. Feels like you’re going off his junior profile with this. Not sure why you’re trying to imply that Adams can’t kick on his left, because he can, just as badly as his right.

Size - he will add more Kgs as he matures like all players.
He’s around the same weight as Adams at the same age.

Yes, but he’s taller than Adams. Ideally at his height he should be around Adams’ current weight already. For context, DeGoey in his 3rd year was sitting 10kg heavier than Fin is currently. I know it’s an extreme example because of Jordy’s natural build, but I think most of us expected Fin to be sitting around the 85-90kg mark by this point, not still 83, and that’s not unreasonable.

The question is are those doubts great enough to trade him? To me he’s just another Murphy- where people had doubts but he ultimately proved himself.

Possibly. I’m in the camp of wanting to see what he’s got for another year at least. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he doesn’t make it.

 

[Scodog10]

I haven't been watching other teams closely enough to know how a few them play, but I think we're talking about a different thing. Not Libba and Rowell

I think we have the same mentality and set up as the tigers went with. Where it's about scores from stoppage, so it's about getting and stopping clean deep entries more than it's about overall clearance numbers.

Going forward, we've got the blokes to do what Martin and Prestia did- get dangerous entries. JDG and Nick are going to be one hell of a combo for the next 5 years. But it's the Cotchin/Pendles selfless back of the pack guy who reads it and tries to cover off the opposition from bursting out the front that we'll need to find. If there's someone on our list, I think it's Maynard.

I stand by it with Libba. In their midfield mix without Dunkley he was that player and it probably highlighted why they struggled this year because he still hunted the ball. Ditto GC and Rowell, but I’d acknowledge that might have been more Miller under King (I’m not exactly forensically analysing their stoppage structure). By pushing past Mitchell I meant into the 23 rather than the specific role. In this sense I think we’re on the same page and I agree Maynard looks the best suited on the list currently. Or we could get the cheque book out for Willmot even if he’ll never leave.

 

[Scodog10]

By that metric your support of Ginnivan over Macrae makes no sense.
Ginny isn’t matching those guys either.

I supported Ginnivan over Macrae as a 1st possession mid not a defensive mid. His smarts and skills are vastly superior to Macrae’s plus they have similar athletic profiles. You overrate Macrae, IMO.

 

[SchuPie]

Over next 2-3 years, target one young gun mid from other clubs and just get it done.
You do that and have some luck that a Moir is a hit, mid is fixed for years
Hopefully we then also have a bit of luck with KOP either draft or FA

 

[sr36]

I stand by it with Libba. In their midfield mix without Dunkley he was that player and it probably highlighted why they struggled this year because he still hunted the ball. Ditto GC and Rowell, but I’d acknowledge that might have been more Miller under King (I’m not exactly forensically analysing their stoppage structure). By pushing past Mitchell I meant into the 23 rather than the specific role. In this sense I think we’re on the same page and I agree Maynard looks the best suited on the list currently. Or we could get the cheque book out for Willmot even if he’ll never leave.

I'm not convinced that many other teams set up the way we do and Richmond did, maybe still do. Dee's are the only team that I've paid much attention to around stoppage, because they were tearing teams apart and it's personnel more than using the same structure. Clarry often sits at the back of stoppage, but he's bloody attacking. Rowell, I haven't watched closely, but his numbers suggest that he's hunting the ball.

I think you've almost got to have an older statesman with nothing to prove like Cotchin or Pendles to be smart enough and good enough but willing to sacrifice their own game to that extent.

 

[sr36]

Over next 2-3 years, target one young gun mid from other clubs and just get it done.
You do that and have some luck that a Moir is a hit, mid is fixed for years
Hopefully we then also have a bit of luck with KOP either draft or FA

Yeah I'm not that concerned about it. JDG is there for a fair while and we've got a generational prodigy hopefully for the next dozen years. We won't need to go nuts in terms of acquisitions.

 

[sr36]

Is he a poor decision-maker? I’ve always thought him a fine decision-maker myself.

His size isn’t necessarily a deficiency for me. It’s just middle of the pack - not huge, but not small enough to be moved aside with ease.

His speed & kicking are pretty legit worries. But, if he just specialises on burrowing and extracting with hands, I think he’ll have a place

I agree with all of that, except I think you're underestimating how good he's got to be with those weaknesses. He'll have to become one of those 6th sense types.

 

[legendstatus]

100% ridiculous.
Trade Ginni and we will regret it.
We all know how good he is going to be.

Or how bad

 

[gouki88]

I agree with all of that, except I think you're underestimating how good he's got to be with those weaknesses. He'll have to become one of those 6th sense types.

I guess - I project a bit of improvement in his kicking, which I think gives him some wriggle room

 

[gouki88]

Or how bad

How does it feel to be so incredibly wrong about Ginnivan?

 

[magpies42]

Speed- same as Adams
Size - he’s 188cm therefore taller than Adams
Kicking - he’s proficient on both sides unlike Adams
Decision making - no worse than Adams and showed good signs in the Bombers game.
So if Adams is a benchmark then Macrae can get there.

There is are immeasurable aspects there as well. For example 7 first quarter contested possessions in a hot final…has Macrae done that? Someone can be taller, faster appear better but ultimately it’s between the ears and we don’t play well without Adam’s in the side.

 

[HFF]

I wonder what a couple of state league gems there are out there
Someone like Sam Paea could be a Brody Mihocek

41

Brody Mihocek

Age

31

Ht

192cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

8.2

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.6

5star

D

8.4

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

2.1

2star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.9

3star

G

1.7

5star

D

10.2

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.6

5star

like story.
Near 30 goals in the VFL for Werribee as a 21yr old KPP.

We certainly need to be creative outside of the conventional u18s only.

 

[Bussie]

I supported Ginnivan over Macrae as a 1st possession mid not a defensive mid. His smarts and skills are vastly superior to Macrae’s plus they have similar athletic profiles. You overrate Macrae, IMO.

Macrae must have been overrated by a lot of people, he went at 19 and was deemed the steal of the draft. Ginni was rookied at pick 13.

 

[thebaldfacts]

Swapping our second rounder last year to Carlton for their second this year was looking good earlier this year. Now looking like it could be pick 33 before academy picks, father sons etc.
Can't win them all l guess.

 

[Apex36]

Macrae must have been overrated by a lot of people, he went at 19 and was deemed the steal of the draft. Ginni was rookied at pick 13.

In a draft that was heavily affected by COVID. Let’s be real here, in a normal year that draft goes very differently.

(Also, Henry was regarded as the steal iirc, which he was. Just a shame that his heart wasn’t in it to stay loyal.)

 

[HFF]

Swapping our second rounder last year to Carlton for their second this year was looking good earlier this year. Now looking like it could be pick 33 before academy picks, father sons etc.
Can't win them all l guess.

That will end up coming forward significantly though as the suns and dogs will be burning through a stack of picks for their father sons.
So it’s about a break even and the whole purpose for us wasn’t to take a player last year at that pick…it was to create some draft capital and currency for this year.

 

[manicpie]

I wonder what a couple of state league gems there are out there
Someone like Sam Paea could be a Brody Mihocek like story.
Near 30 goals in the VFL for Werribee as a 21yr old KPP.

We certainly need to be creative outside of the conventional u18s only.

It doesn't look we are in the market for a KF. I think we are going with McStay, Johnson and BM.

 

[adammania9]

Michael Barlow could be a wonderful addition to any AFL club's coaching ranks