Collingwood vs Melbourne Matchday Discussion.

[bucksisbest]

Lucky 2 points for us , played terribly.

Actually agree with alot of the Freo and Blues blokes points , who have been fairly constructive in their posts.
I think we missed Balls hardness and didn't bring that attitude to match the Dees on the inside. But I find our forwards and backs as the main problems. The forwards lack structure and I think the zone is making our backs look poor , where they are spread out and made to feel nervous chasing a forward and watching the ball as it goes over the back.

It wasn't a great side for us , carrying a few blokes who aren't up to it and some who are past it.

Dawes before L.Brown and if not Anthony before L.Brown. He should only play back-up ruck if Malthouse can't let go , because Fraser and Wood are/have been piss weak.

 

[BrownSugar]

I ask this question in all sincerity and carefully considered because we have Brad Miller in our side but honestly; how does Leigh Brown keep getting a game?

 

[loki04]

I ask this question in all sincerity and carefully considered because we have Brad Miller in our side but honestly; how does Leigh Brown keep getting a game?

Work Horse, Malthouse loves them.

 

[rose jam]

There goes 2nd spot. Just not ****ing good enough.

Next round;

Cats v Saints

Pies v Swans


Get that 2nd spot back next round.


I'm sort of happy we're playing poorly at this time of year. Last year it was slow start-fast middle-slow finish.

Looking this year like fast start-slow middle-fast finish

I'm in a good mood

 

[bucksisbest]

I ask this question in all sincerity and carefully considered because we have Brad Miller in our side but honestly; how does Leigh Brown keep getting a game?

MM can be blamed , but it must be said it is also encouraged by a section of our supporters.
He was also lucky that he got to beat up on a run of weak VFL sides Collingwood played , and actually kicked 2 goals last week in his second half decent performance out of the half or dozen or so games he has played.

 

[danielnajdek]

Everyone was saying how crap Dawes was when the forwardline structure fell apart against Geelong. Dawes didn't play one bad game up to that Geelong game yet got dropped straight away. Now the forwardline structure fell apart with Leigh Brown against Melbourne Wonder if Mick will have the balls and drop Leigh after one bad game. My guess is NO.

At least you can excuse Dawes who is 21 of having a poor game against one of the best defenders ever. But no one can excuse the shocking performance of Leigh Brown against a less then frightening backline. Leigh please **** off. Your not the future or present but hopefully by the Sydney game the past.

Now Josh Fraser. Where do I start. That effort in the last quarter was the laziest most piss weak heartless thing I have ever seen a person with a Collingwood jumper on do. To not chase and man up on your opponent at a stage of the game where we were just hanging on to the lead IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Just that effort by itself should see Josh never ever play a game in the Black and White stripes ever again. ****ing pathetic from a number one draft pick.

Now Brad Dick you little star. You are what Collingwood is all about. You give energy to our team you bleed black and white and last of all you've got a massive heart.To play 2 games in one weekend is un heard of. But to back up a 2 goal performance in the VFL with 4 in the AFL just shows everyone what character you have. Congrats Dicky you had a wonderful game.

Dane Swan well what a star. Basically got us the draw. Also one guy who you can't question the size of his heart.Runs all day and never gives up. Well done Swanny you do it every week but we still feel proud to have such a player as you at Collingwood.

Dale Thomas you were also massive today. I doubted whether you could take the next step back you've taken more then one step. Yes he wasn't as clean as previous weeks but at least you knew he was gonna give his all to the last second. Also Pendles was okay got alot of the ball but still needs to tighten up in the ball ups and Centre bounces but can't complain about his game.

Just a quick question. Didn't see Beamer a hell of alot today. Whats going on with him? Ever since that controversy he has been ordinary.Might be a coincidence so it will be interesting to see how he goes after the break.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

The reason they are having these shots is because by the time the ball has come into the forward 50 there is no space to lead forcing the leader wide, he then can't spot up a player due to having close to 20 players from both teams in the f50 clogging it up.

Surely you have noticed how much space even the poorer teams have when they break through the center against us (which is most thrusts) which puts undue pressure on the backs. Then when we come forward it is so wide that if the opposition are clued in they just crowd the side of the ground we are on forcing us to kick to:

A) a contested f50.
B) a very wide lead on the boundary literally.

My point is, that the player always has the option to simply step over the boundary and force a throw in. I'd bet we'd score a goal more than once every six throw in attempts on a forward flank/deep in a forward pocket. Hence we'd be doing better than what we currently are.

 

[rose jam]

To me it's no doubt that the 2 games where our forward line got choked the worst of all Ben Johnson wasn't playing.
His ability to always play on, run and carry, and push through the middle of the ground has been enormous for us.

Can't underestimate how much we missed Didak though, his kicking was badly missed.

 

[RTsoft]

Don't be ridiculous. The weather conditions are no excuse because the best players can equally use the ball well in any conditions.

So you dont agree with the old adage of getting it on the boot when the heavens open?

Most experts, former players, current players and anyone who plays the game acknowledges this is what generally happens.

Ball becomes a cake of soap and you basically play for territory.

I am not disputing that Collingwood's goalkicking has not been good enough too often this season, but settling on a marking forward to support Cloke has been the biggest problem this season.High bombs to contests are not clangers, and I don't know what you mean by long bombs to the pockets.

I mean bombing the ball to a contest in the pockets, I tend to think you are overstating this theory that if Cloke were to have a settled partner up forward the forward entries would magically improve?

Seems your coach has highlighted this as an area of concern as well.

The 50m line is just a line on the ground, unless we penetrate like Melbourne did - I would like to have the ball 38 times where Melbourne got it (inside 50m) than 58 times where we got it

Now, you have to ask how Melbourne were able to get the ball in less for equal points for? 20 less entries to be exact?

Could it be, better ball users and perhaps a more precise game plan going forward?

Mick pulled the same shit at West Coast for 10 years, boundary, boundary, bomb.

If I agreed with it then I would acknowledge, but I don't. I think that Swan's biggest problem has been trying to find a marking forward which goes back to the problem of trying to find a second market forward in support for Cloke.

The 50m line is just a line on the ground, unless we penetrate like Melbourne did - I would like to have the ball 38 times where Melbourne got it (inside 50m) than 58 times where we got it

Swan is a raging bull. His grunt work is exceptional, his composure when spotting up a forward target? Suspect.

A premiership wasn't won or lost today as much as you seem to think it was. Only one week ago exactly, I heard four different footy analysts state on the radio that Collingwood's midfield and ball use has improved dramatically this season and are fair dinkum premiership contenders.

Was that after the win against the dogs?

Do you think you are fair dinkum premiership contenders? Personally, premiership contenders, fair dinkum ones, dont break even with sides sitting 12th on the ladder.

Note * I dont think we are premiership contenders *

The ball use is not the problem. Finding a second marking forward option in support of Cloke is the bloody problem.

Is there an echo in here?

I'll retort with one of my own.

"I reckon we were lucky to get out of it, I thought they were a lot cleaner

Helpful hint, he's talking about your forward 50 entries, and ball use.

It's causing plenty of problems because Collingwood are having difficulty settling on a second forward marking option in support for Cloke. That is obvious to anybody that knows what they're on about.

That echo is back, do I need to repeat what your own coach, the bloke who identifies the strengths and weaknesses in your performance highlighted as a problem????

The problem is not the ball use as those four analysts stated only one week ago. The problem is finding a second forward marking option in support for Cloke.

If you say something long enough, it doesnt make it right.

It's not similar to Adelaide a few years back either though. How did you come to that conclusion?

I came to that conclusion simply because Adelaide were the masters of the home and away rounds, they dominated all the stats, won plenty of ball but just didnt have a forward set up capable of providing reward for effort.

I see similar problems with Collingwood at the moment.

There is very little in common when comparing effective ball use and inside-50's.

Lol.

There are some players that are developing well, but quite a few that are not up to it. Fremantle's best team is older than Collingwood's best team in my opinion, and they need Pavlich to perform in the future to be successful

Yes there are some fine youngsters coming though, thankyou

Pavlich is a massive key to future success, Im confident in the other youngsters we have coming through as well.

Collingwood's ball use is not the problem. Finding a second marking option in support of Cloke is the problem that is effecting the midfield.

Echo echo echo........

 

[footyfreak]

We didn't lose, but why does it feel like we did?

really, i thought we stole 2 points off of them.

 

[mattys123]

really, i thought we stole 2 points off of them.

I was with MM and you here, I think we stole 2 points in the last 10 minutes of that game, and I was damn happy walking out.

I have only been happy walking out of the game after 2 draws in my time as a pies supporter, 1990 Qualifying final where Sumich missed after the siren, and the 1995 ANZAC day match where you just had to applaud the efforts.

Today's game didn't have a high standard at all, in fact it looked like 10th vs 12th or something like that, but the last 10 minutes were "on" in terms of intensity.

We lifted twice in that last quarter, and I couldn't think of another player on the ground in black and white I wanted to have a shot from 40 out to tie the game. Tarks was brilliant in the second half, may have resurrected his career there, especially with Leon, Fraser and Meds out of form.

We stole 2 points late, although the argument could be made that kicking 1.9 in the 3rd quarter probably cost us a chance at a comfortable win.

I'm still happy with where we are "ladder wise", but I am not blind, we need to improve that forward line quickly or else.

 

[KissStephanie]

I only really see Collingwood on television or Carlton games, but with players like Davis, Medhurst (apart from about a year and a half ago), Fraser and Cloke who tend not to perform when you really what them too, it's going to be really hard to take that next step.

Please elaborate. I don't think that Josh Fraser is in Collingwood's best team, but I disagree with you completely that Leon Davis and Paul Medhurst cannot be influential regarding Collingwood being a premiership contender. Davis does not look fit, but I think he will still be beneficial in the second half of the season. Paul Medhurst on the other hand is extremely important. It's well documented that his 2009 season was ruined by a serious ankle injury, but in the first seven matches of this season, he had kicked ten goals and had six goal assists, and had laid 26 tackles.

He was injured prior to the Fremantle match in Round 8, and missed three matches, and has returned slowly in the two matches since then, but even yesterday when he was just okay, he still laid six tackles which were very crucial toward saving the match. He is definitely a player that can help Collingwood win a premiership if the team can settle on a second tall marking option in support of Travis Cloke. All of the forwards will benefit from the team being straightened up by the inclusion of Dawes.

Some other players have come along this year, ie. looks like Daisy is doing well, and I'd be playing Dawes every week to get some AFL miles into him. He looks better long term than Cloke

Cloke is better when Dawes was in the team. His presence straightens the team up, and that helps the small and mid-sized forwards, and it helps the midfield to spot someone in the forward 50 that can take a mark. He has averaged six marks in his six matches this season, which is more than either Brendan Fevola, Matthew Pavlich, or any of Carlton's marking forward options, and that can cause problems to the opposition.

And am not trolling, still bank you guys to finish top 4, top 6 at worst

You're close though. In my opinion you are trying to state that Collingwood won't win the premiership as politely as you can. To not make the top-4 would be a huge disappointment for the club, and I have no doubt that they will finish top-4, and the team has the chance to set that up in the next three matches which are all very winnable.

There's now a gap appearing between the Cats (and probably Saints) and everyone else at this stage, and a few weeks back your form indicated that gap was a lot closer than it is now.

Geelong are playing well at the moment. It's a good thing that the finals are still ten weeks away. I was a bit concerned when Collingwood were playing too well too early, but now there is time to straighten a few things out well before the finals begin. Last year Collingwood won 12 of 13 matches and were equal premiership favourites following Round 21, but there wasn't anything left at that time once Scott Pendlebury fractured his leg. I would rather see the team build toward the finals this year instead of hitting a brick wall in Round 22 like last season any day!

Put money on the Saints to get their act right again at season's end

I actually think Collingwood wiill get their act right before the finals, and will beat St.Kilda at least once in the second half of the season. I don't think the Saints will make the Grand Final, so why would I wan to do that? I think the Western Bulldogs are better than St.Kilda too.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

 

[KissStephanie]

So you dont agree with the old adage of getting it on the boot when the heavens open?

Old? I'll say it's old and certainly before my time. It's been decades since footy was played on the mud heaps of Moorabbin, Windy Hill, Princes Park, Victoria Park, Glenferrie Oval and Punt Road.

Most experts, former players, current players and anyone who plays the game acknowledges this is what generally happens.

When? In 1970 maybe.

Ball becomes a cake of soap and you basically play for territory.

You are a Collingwood basher. Maloney was good with his ball use yesterday, but mostly because there was a forward target. He butchered the ball last week though despite your paltry and out of date excuses.

I mean bombing the ball to a contest in the pockets, I tend to think you are overstating this theory that if Cloke were to have a settled partner up forward the forward entries would magically improve?

I didn't say "magically," but I have no doubt that they would improve because Collingwood has been more accurate for goal with Dawes in the team compared to when he has not been! I'm not surprised that you have missed that because your objective is to bag Collingwood without looking at all factors.

Now, you have to ask how Melbourne were able to get the ball in less for equal points for? 20 less entries to be exact?

I don't have to ask that because I already know the reason that happened. Melbourne forced Collingwood wide, and Collingwood lacked a second marking forward option to straighten the team up. Leigh Brown doesn;t take enough marks and is not the the answer. John Anthony hasn't worked. Chris Dawes has averaged six marks in his six matches which is more than Fevola or Pavlich.

Could it be, better ball users and perhaps a more precise game plan going forward?

Not in my opinion. Melbourne had marking forward options that Collingwood did not have yesterday. In my opinion, any midfielder would struggle in that situation.

Mick pulled the same shit at West Coast for 10 years, boundary, boundary, bomb.

I see. So you're not just an unreasonable and blind Collingwood basher, but it's the coach. You have some nerve coming to the Collingwood board sprouting one-sided bullshit without looking at the entire picture.

Swan is a raging bull. His grunt work is exceptional, his composure when spotting up a forward target? Suspect.

Echo. Echo. If you say the same thing fifty times, it's not going to change facts. Dane Swan's disposal is not the problem. There wasn't a bloody forward target to spot up yesterday, but when there has been this season, then he has been able to do that. Don't stop unrealistically judging Collingwood on one match though as you are clearly and obviously doing though.

Was that after the win against the dogs?

You probably don't even know which team Collingwood played last week otherwise you would not have asked this question. Therefore it's quite evident that your opinion has been formed on this one match only.

Do you think you are fair dinkum premiership contenders?

Absolutely! I think that Collingwood will play in the 2010 Grand Final, and are capable of beating any team on the MCG. All of the top-4 teams will be premiership contenders, and I think those teams will be Collingwood, Geelong, St.Kilda and Western Bulldogs again. Hawthorn are obviously the dark horse because they won the premiership in 2008.

Personally, premiership contenders, fair dinkum ones, dont break even with sides sitting 12th on the ladder.

Ha ha ha ha ha! In Round 20 of 2008, Hawthorn lost to Richmond by 27 points in Round 20, and they were 12th at the time. That is worse than breaking even in case you're unaware. This Melbourne team is better than that Richmond team as well, and the Queen's Birthday match always brings out their best. There was no shame in drawing this match.

Note * I dont think we are premiership contenders *

So? Neither do I, but I don't care, and I fail to see what that has to do with the topic at all.

Is there an echo in here?

There is no need to be such a bloody hypocrite.

I'll retort with one of my own. Helpful hint, he's talking about your forward 50 entries, and ball use.

I don't know what you're on about or what this is supposed to mean at all.

That echo is back, do I need to repeat what your own coach, the bloke who identifies the strengths and weaknesses in your performance highlighted as a problem????

You are such a hypocrite when all you have done is repeated the same things over and over without looking at all of the aspects at all. You are just a self-righteous Collingwood basher. As I have said already, I am already aware of what has caused problems at times this year and that is that Collingwood are having difficulty settling on a second forward marking option in support for Cloke. That is obvious to anybody that knows what they're on about.

If you say something long enough, it doesnt make it right.

So then why are you continuing to do it then? Your objective has simply been to blindly bag Collingwood while refusing to look at the real reasons behind it.

I came to that conclusion simply because Adelaide were the masters of the home and away rounds, they dominated all the stats, won plenty of ball but just didnt have a forward set up capable of providing reward for effort.

There is very little in common regarding Adelaide of a few years ago and Collingwood regarding forward 50 entries and effective disposal.

I see similar problems with Collingwood at the moment.

But you have shown that you're out of touch though and not prepared to look at the entire picture. Collingwood has many more scoring options than Adelaide did. In 2006, Adelaide finished on top of the ladder, and then they beat Fremantle comfortably by five goals in the Qualifying Final to earn a week off and a home Preliminary Final.

Two weeks later they lost to reigning runner-up and eventual premiers West Coast by only 10 points in a great Preliminary Final. Is this what you're on about? If it is, then you're drawing a huge bow because anything can happen on Preliminary Final day.

Yes there are some fine youngsters coming though, thankyou

I don't care about Freo. What is this? Their best team is older than Collingwood's best team, and there are a number of players that are not up to it.

Pavlich is a massive key to future success, Im confident in the other youngsters we have coming through as well.

I think Pavlich will be retired before the youngsters coming through will be good enough for future success.

Echo echo echo........

Hypocrite...hypocrite...hypocrite.

 

[The Exorcist]

Please elaborate. I don't think that Josh Fraser is in Collingwood's best team, but I disagree with you completely that Leon Davis and Paul Medhurst cannot be influential regarding Collingwood being a premiership contender. Davis does not look fit, but I think he will still be beneficial in the second half of the season. Paul Medhurst on the other hand is extremely important. It's well documented that his 2009 season was ruined by a serious ankle injury, but in the first seven matches of this season, he had kicked ten goals and had six goal assists, and had laid 26 tackles.

He was injured prior to the Fremantle match in Round 8, and missed three matches, and has returned slowly in the two matches since then, but even yesterday when he was just okay, he still laid six tackles which were very crucial toward saving the match. He is definitely a player that can help Collingwood win a premiership if the team can settle on a second tall marking option in support of Travis Cloke. All of the forwards will benefit from the team being straightened up by the inclusion of Dawes.Cloke is better when Dawes was in the team. His presence straightens the team up, and that helps the small and mid-sized forwards, and it helps the midfield to spot someone in the forward 50 that can take a mark. He has averaged six marks in his six matches this season, which is more than either Brendan Fevola, Matthew Pavlich, or any of Carlton's marking forward options, and that can cause problems to the opposition.You're close though. In my opinion you are trying to state that Collingwood won't win the premiership as politely as you can. To not make the top-4 would be a huge disappointment for the club, and I have no doubt that they will finish top-4, and the team has the chance to set that up in the next three matches which are all very winnable.Geelong are playing well at the moment. It's a good thing that the finals are still ten weeks away. I was a bit concerned when Collingwood were playing too well too early, but now there is time to straighten a few things out well before the finals begin. Last year Collingwood won 12 of 13 matches and were equal premiership favourites following Round 21, but there wasn't anything left at that time once Scott Pendlebury fractured his leg. I would rather see the team build toward the finals this year instead of hitting a brick wall in Round 22 like last season any day!I actually think Collingwood wiill get their act right before the finals, and will beat St.Kilda at least once in the second half of the season. I don't think the Saints will make the Grand Final, so why would I wan to do that? I think the Western Bulldogs are better than St.Kilda too.

Problem with Leon Davis is that he doesn't perform when you want him to - understand their may be some injury concerns with Davis, but he failed to perform in the finals last year, and his poor grand final games have been well documented

He's probably the type of player you don't want - can be magical at times, but at age 28 / 29 he still hasn't been able to show that he can help Collingwood win the big one. In fact, because he's relied upon in lessor games actually makes it a huge dilemma, because he's part of the 22 but come finals you're almost playing with 21

Given Dick's performance yesterday and his pace, I'd be trying to get more game time into him. He came in for the injured Didak, and I'd have Didak in your starting 18 EVERY week

As for Medhurst, granted he's very talented and he was extremely important prior to 2009, however he's suffered from injury etc. Maybe he does need some game time, or maybe he's returned to the form that he showed at Freo - talented and erratic. If the later, that's no good because it means you can't rely on him. Whatever the case, his form has not been good for the last 18 months and until he finds that form would you continue playing him in the 22? Remember, you're one of 4 clubs who could win it this year, and we're halfway through 2010 and Medhurst is really struggling - there was even a thread started indicating that.

Agree that clubs should time their run:

• Cats had a short pre-season, will probably tinker off a bit around round 15-17, then kick into gear again. They're experienced and know exactly what they're doing
• Bulldogs look very unsettled at the moment and have all year. While they may click into gear, they look a long way behind at present
• Saints - are second without Roo. They'll improve