Collingwood's decline

[bombermick]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

 

[L_W_P]

For all the shit the Pies cop about the 'succession' plan, there is an argument that it actually helped deliver the 2010 flag.

Once Mick had an expire date at the Pies he was willing to throw everything into getting a flag. The Pies went super hard for Jolly and Ball and Mick dumped 'his' boys in OBree and Fraser.

If there's no succession plan maybe Mick keeps the faith and holds out until an even more bitter end. Once Eddie made it about business Mick did what needed to be done to cement his legacy.

Not saying that is the undisputed version of events, but its a theory with merit.

As for their current state: Its a list in transition. They will rebound next year but need a good run with injuries to get near the top 4 again.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

It was always going to be the case with a new coaching regime.

Everyone blames Buckley but I don't - he got the job and any coach has to come in and implement his team and tactics. Otherwise what's the point of having the job? He can't just be Malthouse Jnr and mirror everything he did.

He was given license to run the team and make the decisions and that's what he's rightfully done. You have to be true to yourself and be your own man.

The change of coach wasn't Buckley's fault - he was given a great offer back in 2007 and couldn't have been expected to knock it back. If it was the wrong move it's the board's fault.

 

[Angus Young]

The only criticism u can have of Eddie Mguire is his **** up with malthouse/Buckley debacle ...other than that the man bleeds black and white...he will do anything for that club....love his work

 

[Pie Legend]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

Has Hawthorn had a raft of key players retire (Jolly, Didak, Tarrant, Davis, Brown, Johnson, now Maxwell) and had a game plan completely figured out? How is keeping Shaw, Thomas whoever else you want to name make us a team as good as Hawthorn?

1 step back for 2 steps forward. We'll see how the Hawks are travelling in a few years.

 

[bombermick]

It was always going to be the case with a new coaching regime.

Everyone blames Buckley but I don't - he got the job and any coach has to come in and implement his team and tactics. Otherwise what's the point of having the job? He can't just be Malthouse Jnr and mirror everything he did.

He was given license to run the team and make the decisions and that's what he's rightfully done. You have to be true to yourself and be your own man.

The change of coach wasn't Buckley's fault - he was given a great offer back in 2007 and couldn't have been expected to knock it back. If it was the wrong move it's the board's fault.

Rebuilding a contending team is a very interesting strategy. There are times when it's appropriate (Essendon should have after 2002), but the Hawks model looks better, keeping the window open for longer. Pies really only challenged from '07 to '11.

 

[bombermick]

Has Hawthorn had a raft of key players retire (Jolly, Didak, Tarrant, Davis, Brown, Johnson, now Maxwell) and had a game plan completely figured out? How is keeping Shaw, Thomas whoever else you want to name make us a team as good as Hawthorn?

1 step back for 2 steps forward. We'll see how the Hawks are travelling in a few years.

Off the top of my head the Hawks have lost Crawford, Croad and now Franklin - as well as Mark Williams who was crucial in a premiership. Why couldn't Collingwood top up to keep the window open longer?

 

[PattoMan99]

Does Eddie need to finally go? after all this was all his doing in pissing off Malthouse for Buckley.

He should've gone after comparing Australian of the year to a primate.

 

[PattoMan99]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

Shaw had to go. At the end he was basically giving up two goals a game just for his brain fades and undiscipline acts. You cannot blame Bucks for this.

 

[Pie Legend]

Off the top of my head the Hawks have lost Crawford, Croad and now Franklin - as well as Mark Williams who was crucial in a premiership. Why couldn't Collingwood top up to keep the window open longer?

Hold on, you said from 2010 onwards. No questions from me who was a better team come the end of 08 when those guys retired.

It's not just about stretching the window out as long as you can, it's about maximising the amount of time the window is open. We have had ours seemingly closed now, for it to open up if the expected development of our current, young team plus the improvement of the 5 first rounders we've had in two years. That's what ultimately will see how well we negotiated this chapter of our history.

 

[Thuggee_Cult]

Has Hawthorn had a raft of key players retire (Jolly, Didak, Tarrant, Davis, Brown, Johnson, now Maxwell) and had a game plan completely figured out? How is keeping Shaw, Thomas whoever else you want to name make us a team as good as Hawthorn?

1 step back for 2 steps forward. We'll see how the Hawks are travelling in a few years.

Off the top of my head: Crawford, Croad, Dew retired not long after 2008
Campbell Brown, Mark Williams, Gilham , renouf got traded
Ladson ,Osborne ,Campbell ,Bateman retired eventually
Guerra retired after 2013

They missed the finals in 2009 and the rest is history

Edit: I forgot Buddy LOL

 

[thegasman]

Buckleys a dud in the box. Simple. Will never win a final with him at the helm. He makes Voss, KB and Tim Watson look like genius coaches.
Aweful mistake by Eddie re Mick and Bucks. Will define his presidential reign.

And like Richmond have made some top notch coaching appointments. Don't make me laugh.

 

[SuperSub17]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

I don't really agree.

Buckley made the decision to tweak a few things in order for the side to peak again. If we'd kept running at the top after 2010-11, how long would we have stayed up there? 2014? 15? Hardly any team stays there that long and we'd be slinking down the ladder with a lot of older players - ala some of our fellow top 4 teams from 2009-10 in WB and St Kilda, or even West Coast from 2011.

Instead he's decided to top up a few draft picks in the hope that increases the window for a bit longer - right now we're really aiming to challenge in 2016-17. Pendlebury and Cloke are our two key players and they'll still be around and playing decent footy at that time. There's no reason why our young squad can't develop (11 players today who have played under 50 games) and show some of the form we had early in the year on a more consistent basis - and that will be the key to how we fare in the next couple of years, and whether Bucks' list management decisions will pay off or not.

 

[doppleganger]

Off the top of my head the Hawks have lost Crawford, Croad and now Franklin - as well as Mark Williams who was crucial in a premiership. Why couldn't Collingwood top up to keep the window open longer?

Hawthorn weren't really premiership contenders prior to, or following the flag in 08.
2007 was the first finals appearance in a few years for the Hawks, Buddy won them the EF but they were bundled out in the SF.
In 2009 they missed the finals completely, in 2010 they finished 7th and were given a touch up in an EF.

You cant really claim that the Hawks have kept their window open since 08, they basically stole one in 08 and then only really been a great team since 2011.

Pies went PF, SF, PF, GF, GF, PF from 07-12, six years is a fecking decent crack at it, needed to reload or risk ending up like the Saints or Dogs.

 

[Pie Legend]

Off the top of my head: Crawford, Croad, Dew retired not long after 2008
Campbell Brown, Mark Williams, Gilham , renouf got traded
Ladson ,Osborne ,Campbell ,Bateman retired eventually
Guerra retired after 2013

They missed the finals in 2009 and the rest is history

Edit: I forgot Buddy LOL

I'm talking about 2010 onwards. Crawford, Croad, Dew Williams, Brown, Gilham, Ladson and Bateman are essentially irrelevant because
a) they were no longer at the club
b) wern't getting a game and so can't be considered key players.

Fact is since 2010 Hawthorn have had a much more stable core then what Collingwood has had, which is my point.

 

[nickrebellious]

Shaw had to go. At the end he was basically giving up two goals a game just for his brain fades and undiscipline acts. You cannot blame Bucks for this.

The thing with Malthouse though was he was able to keep Shaw under control.

 

[The Casey Cat]

We have a list with potential but a horrible coach who is simply out of his depth. I'd be happy to see him sacked at the end of this year.

Will have to sack Ed first.

 

[master bate]

Has Hawthorn had a raft of key players retire (Jolly, Didak, Tarrant, Davis, Brown, Johnson, now Maxwell) and had a game plan completely figured out? How is keeping Shaw, Thomas whoever else you want to name make us a team as good as Hawthorn?

1 step back for 2 steps forward. We'll see how the Hawks are travelling in a few years.

2008 grand final
Retired: Croad, Guerra, Ladson, Osborne, Crawford, Dew, Campbell, Bateman
Traded/FA: Gilham, Williams, Franklin, Young, Ellis, Renouf, C. Brown

Croad = Tarrant
Campbell = Jolly
Crawford = Didak
The rest of those Coll players compares to the left overs from the Hawks list

I reckon you could've kept Heath Shaw, his skill would've been handy as well as having another senior guy down back, Taylor Adams is dime a dozen. Thomas, Wellingham and Dawes were right to move on just as the hawks moved plenty on when the time had come.

The issue is not that you let guys go. Hawthorn did that too. But Hawthorn turned some of those guys traded out in to the picks for Lake, Gibson, Gunston and McEvoy. They freshened the list up and stayed strong. It's the same model Sydney used between 2005/06 to 2012 although they did have one year down the ladder.

You had 3 picks in a row in the draft in the 20's. I reckon that's just dumb. You could potentially have traded one of those picks down from pick 20 to pick 30 or even 40 and still got the same or similarly rated player at the pick and in return could've picked up a good experienced player.

The hawks have got 2 flags out of their window. They might get a 3rd. And sure when Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughy, Gibson and Lake finish up they'll have work to do but I'd prefer the extra flag(s) now than a big fat load of maybe's in the future.

 

[Falchoon]

I;m looking forward to looking back on this thread in 3 years. Will be interesting to say the least.

much like a lot of Pies threads from the past 3 years

 

[Monkey King]

Is this what was expected - a drop off as the team was readjusted with new players brought into the team?

Hard reality is under Buckley team has come from a GF, to prelim finals in his first year, to bundled out week one of the finals in 2013 and now seemingly missing the finals in Buckley's 3rd year.

I think after 3 years it's safe to say that pushing ahead with the succession plan in 2011 was a blunder. What's scary, is that many supporters have protected themselves from facing this by claiming the plan was responsible for the 2010 premiership and hence, already a success before Buckley even took over. Some running the club have even deluded themselves with this mental fail-safe; but if you're not prepared to admit your error, how can you expect to learn from it?

While some supporters expected the team to drop this year as they rebuilt to a degree, the question needs to be asked why a club ball deep in contention would ever plan to go backwards? It's not like you're guaranteed to rise back up again. Premiership contention is a difficult place to get to and you don't just piss it away with a rebuild and culture change right when the pieces have fallen into place - you grab the chance with both hands. You'd think a club with 2 flags in the last half a century would have appreciated that.

 

[Mateyman]

While Hawthorn have kept topping up (Gunston, Burgoyne etc), Buckley chose to acclerate Collingwood's decline by getting rid of Shaw etc. Obvious which strategy has worked better, when Collingwood's list in 2010 wasn't much less talented than Hawthorn's.

I'm not commenting on the respective strategies, but surely it is too early to judge which strategy will work better given the fruits of the latter won't be seen for a little while?

 

[bombermick]

Hawthorn weren't really premiership contenders prior to, or following the flag in 08.
2007 was the first finals appearance in a few years for the Hawks, Buddy won them the EF but they were bundled out in the SF.
In 2009 they missed the finals completely, in 2010 they finished 7th and were given a touch up in an EF.

You cant really claim that the Hawks have kept their window open since 08, they basically stole one in 08 and then only really been a great team since 2011.

Pies went PF, SF, PF, GF, GF, PF from 07-12, six years is a fecking decent crack at it, needed to reload or risk ending up like the Saints or Dogs.

The nucleus of the Hawks team has largely stayed the same, including their one year fall in '09. The difference is while Hawthorn gave up top picks to get serious talent (Burgoyne, Gunston etc), Collingwood went for recycled players and kids.

 

[Collingwood HQ]

They are complete shit

I can't wait until the wheel turns, and it won't be long for your old list. Enjoy these days while u can then hurriedly scamper back into ur cave when it turns.

 

[SuperSub17]

I think after 3 years it's safe to say that pushing ahead with the succession plan in 2011 was a blunder. What's scary, is that many supporters have protected themselves from facing this by claiming the plan was responsible for the 2010 premiership and hence, already a success before Buckley even took over. Some running the club have even deluded themselves with this mental fail-safe; but if you're not prepared to admit your error, how can you expect to learn from it?

While some supporters expected the team to drop this year as they rebuilt to a degree, the question needs to be asked why a club ball deep in contention would ever plan to go backwards? It's not like you're guaranteed to rise back up again. Premiership contention is a difficult place to get to and you don't just piss it away with a rebuild and culture change right when the pieces have fallen into place - you grab the chance with both hands. You'd think a club with 2 flags in the last half a century would have appreciated that.

Do you have to stink up every Collingwood thread with this?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

It was always going to be the case with a new coaching regime.

Everyone blames Buckley but I don't - he got the job and any coach has to come in and implement his team and tactics. Otherwise what's the point of having the job? He can't just be Malthouse Jnr and mirror everything he did.

He was given license to run the team and make the decisions and that's what he's rightfully done. You have to be true to yourself and be your own man.

The change of coach wasn't Buckley's fault - he was given a great offer back in 2007 and couldn't have been expected to knock it back. If it was the wrong move it's the board's fault.

No one blames Buckley for the appointment: obviously that was not his call. But as he is looking like a dud coach, he can be blamed for the on field performances, or lack thereof. Not everyone is cut out to be a coach. bucks looks serious, talks serious, sounds like a good coach but that means nothing if you can't motivate young men and it seems really clear that he seems to have lost many of his players. His appointment is turning into a real disaster for Collingwood.