Collingwood's decline

[longsuffreosupp]

Off the top of my head the Hawks have lost Crawford, Croad and now Franklin - as well as Mark Williams who was crucial in a premiership. Why couldn't Collingwood top up to keep the window open longer?

Krakeour & Tarrant - nearly worked, Q Lynch, Adams, Young, White, that defender hack from Carlton I cant think of his name atm...

 

[illavitar]

So have the Collingwood fallen off wheels?

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I think after 3 years it's safe to say that pushing ahead with the succession plan in 2011 was a blunder. What's scary, is that many supporters have protected themselves from facing this by claiming the plan was responsible for the 2010 premiership and hence, already a success before Buckley even took over. Some running the club have even deluded themselves with this mental fail-safe; but if you're not prepared to admit your error, how can you expect to learn from it?

While some supporters expected the team to drop this year as they rebuilt to a degree, the question needs to be asked why a club ball deep in contention would ever plan to go backwards? It's not like you're guaranteed to rise back up again. Premiership contention is a difficult place to get to and you don't just piss it away with a rebuild and culture change right when the pieces have fallen into place - you grab the chance with both hands. You'd think a club with 2 flags in the last half a century would have appreciated that.

I actually agree with this. Obviously there is another supporter group at the moment that cops it for being cult like but there is a fair bit of kool-aid being drunk down at Collingwood regarding how big a stuff up they made with this appointment. They are stuck with a dud coach favourite son and are deflecting attention from him at every opportunity but it can't go on forever.

 

[Pie Legend]

2008 grand final
Retired: Croad, Guerra, Ladson, Osborne, Crawford, Dew, Campbell, Bateman
Traded/FA: Gilham, Williams, Franklin, Young, Ellis, Renouf, C. Brown

Croad = Tarrant
Campbell = Jolly
Crawford = Didak
The rest of those Coll players compares to the left overs from the Hawks list
I reckon you could've kept Heath Shaw, his skill would've been handy as well as having another senior guy down back, Taylor Adams is dime a dozen. Thomas, Wellingham and Dawes were right to move on just as the hawks moved plenty on when the time had come.

The issue is not that you let guys go. Hawthorn did that too. But Hawthorn turned some of those guys traded out in to the picks for Lake, Gibson, Gunston and McEvoy. They freshened the list up and stayed strong. It's the same model Sydney used between 2005/06 to 2012 although they did have one year down the ladder.

As I've already stated, the players you've mentioned were gone after 08, my comparison starts in 10, and even then the players I named only left in 2012/2013 giving us another 4 years to be in contention for a flag (post 08 = 2012 success, post 2012 = 2016 success). But I'll continue anyway.

You had 3 picks in a row in the draft in the 20's. I reckon that's just dumb. You could potentially have traded one of those picks down from pick 20 to pick 30 or even 40 and still got the same or similarly rated player at the pick and in return could've picked up a good experienced player.

The hawks have got 2 flags out of their window. They might get a 3rd. And sure when Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughy, Gibson and Lake finish up they'll have work to do but I'd prefer the extra flag(s) now than a big fat load of maybe's in the future

Which draft are you talking about? Or is this consecutive drafts? And how much quality could we get back by trading down 20 spots from 20 to 40? I don't know a lot of clubs who would give up Burgoyne, Lake or Gunston quality to move up 20 spots in a draft.

I would as well, but the key difference is Hawthorn have had a good core that you just named to build around (plus a few others - Lewis, Buddy when he was there etc), whereas as was the ageing stars I named.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Collingwood missing only two best 22 players get well beaten at home in a must win game to the tenth placed side. Yeah nothing wrong here!!

Disappointing game but that's not true. Even if you leave out Maxwell, they were also missing Swan, Brown, Ball and Toovey, with Reid very rusty in his first game for months.

Add those to the absences Buckley forced for his own reasons - Shaw, Jolly - and there's a lot of slack to take up. It's not a surprise that the back line in particular are struggling to play the season out, but Blair is nothing like the player he was, White is very hit and miss, and neither Witts nor Grundy are ready to hold down the ruck role.

I can see long term gain with their recruiting, but the jump to rebuilding seems to have come a bit fast after 2010/11 - not out of necessity but out of a wish to carve something that's not Malthouse's team.

 

[I am Jack]

Collingwood still need to clean some out.

 

[master bate]

As I've already stated, the players you've mentioned were gone after 08, my comparison starts in 10, and even then the players I named only left in 2012/2013 giving us another 4 years to be in contention for a flag (post 08 = 2012 success, post 2012 = 2016 success). But I'll continue anyway.

Which draft are you talking about? Or is this consecutive drafts? And how much quality could we get back by trading down 20 spots from 20 to 40? I don't know a lot of clubs who would give up Burgoyne, Lake or Gunston quality to move up 20 spots in a draft.

I would as well, but the key difference is Hawthorn have had a good core that you just named to build around (plus a few others - Lewis, Buddy when he was there etc), whereas as was the ageing stars I named.

It doesn't matter what year the success comes. Buckley is obviously thinking success from 2016-2018.

But what he's done is give up on lots of prime years of Cloke, Pendles, Beams and Sidebottom.

Your young core in 2010 was Cloke, Pendles, Thomas, Beams, Sidebottom, Dawes, Reid, Brown, Toovey, Shaw, Wellingham, Macaffer, Goldsack, Blair. 14 of 22 including 2 elite mids (Pendles, Thomas) and 2 baby elite mids (Beams, Sidebottom) and all 4 KPP's in the prime of their careers for the next 5-8 years. That's no different to Hawthorn and Franklin, Roughy, Lewis, Mitchell, Birchall, Rioli in 2008.

2012 draft you had picks 18, 19, 20. Likelihood meaning you drafted something like players 12, 13, 14 off your draft board at that time (presuming most of the top 5-10 across teams are similar and then it diversifies).

Lake and 27 for 21 and 41.
Gunston and 53, 71 for 24, 46, 64

So Gunston would've cost around pick 20 once you take out the late swaps. Lake 6 pick downgrade and a pick 40. As much as I rate Broomhead my point remains did you need the 3 top 20 picks in a row and to delay the future of the team for 3-5 years when you could've used one of them or pick down grades to secure something better for the now than Lynch, Young and Russell who were your additions for 2013.

 

[SA HAWK]

I think they are clearly rebuilding and will come back up the ladder for another crack in 2-3 years time.

I doubt they would have won another flag under Malthouse and would possibly have been worse off long term.

 

[Damon_3388]

No one blames Buckley for the appointment: obviously that was not his call. But as he is looking like a dud coach, he can be blamed for the on field performances, or lack thereof. Not everyone is cut out to be a coach. bucks looks serious, talks serious, sounds like a good coach but that means nothing if you can't motivate young men and it seems really clear that he seems to have lost many of his players. His appointment is turning into a real disaster for Collingwood.

I don't think he's "lost" anyone TBH. The team simply isn't playing that well.

It doesn't matter what year the success comes. Buckley is obviously thinking success from 2016-2018.

But what he's done is give up on lots of prime years of Cloke, Pendles, Beams and Sidebottom.

Pretty sure 2016-2018 will be smack bang in the middle of Beams (26-28 years old by then) and Sidebottom's (25-27 years old) primes as players, and Pendlebury (28-30) and Cloke (29-31) won't exactly be way past it either.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

I think they are clearly rebuilding and will come back up the ladder for another crack in 2-3 years time.

I doubt they would have won another flag under Malthouse and would possibly have been worse off long term.

Just shows when people try and predict 2-3 years down the line how useless it is, Collingwood just 3 years ago at this stage were 16-1 with a percentage of 176%

This year they might not make the 8 just goes to show how quickly you can fall.

 

[Monkey King]

Do you have to stink up every Collingwood thread with this?

I was replying to the OP and giving my honest opinion on two points he raised in his post. If you don't like it, find another thread.

 

[SA HAWK]

Just shows when people try and predict 2-3 years down the line how useless it is, Collingwood just 3 years ago at this stage were 16-1 with a percentage of 176%

This year they might not make the 8 just goes to show how quickly you can fall.

Look no further than St Kilda.

 

[SuperSub17]

Just shows when people try and predict 2-3 years down the line how useless it is, Collingwood just 3 years ago at this stage were 16-1 with a percentage of 176%

This year they might not make the 8 just goes to show how quickly you can fall.

No doubt. In fact looking at our grand final team from that year...

Davis - retired
Tarrant - retired
Didak - delisted
Maxwell - retired
Krakouer - delisted
O'Brien
Pendlebury
Blair
Ball - injured
Thomas - FA
L Brown - retired
Jolly - delisted
Reid
Wellingham - traded
Sidebottom
Johnson - retired
Dawes - traded
Cloke
Toovey - injured
Fasolo - injured and currently returning in the VFL
Swan - injured
Shaw - traded

So we only had 6 players from that team playing today

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I expected it. I got called a 'jerk' by some Collingwood supporter for saying their team is rubbish back on the 19/4 this year and wouldn't make the prelims

I stand by that comment

Won't make the prelims?

They won't make the finals mate.

 

[Kakkle]

Curious to see what they will do from a list management perspective at the end of this year -

Tony Armstrong - Delist
Luke Ball - Retire/Delist (harsh)
Marty Clarke - Delist
Ben Hudson - Retire/Delist
Quinten Lynch - Reitre/Delist
Nick Maxwell - Retired
Peter Yagmoor - Delist

 

[Zerg]

 

[jim boy]

Have played more consecutive finals series in their current run than any other team, including the Hawks, Geelong and Sydney. If there are such things as cycles in footy, then Collingwood is due some sort of dip

 

[Seedsfan]

Mick is shit he lost us the 2011 Grand Final, his inability to make a match day move cost us. Got his pants pulled down by a first year coach in C.Scott, the reason we lost was Mick did not manage the list throughout the year he preferred to flog crap sides with a shit team and we were cooked at the end of the year. Geelong on the other had managed their players and were fresh going in to the Grand Final. Cloke started of the game well and straight away Scott made a change put Lonergan on him and nullified his impact, Pods goes down and Hawkins gets on top of an injured Reid and Mick does not make a change until the game was over. In 2010 he did not make any moves in the GF and almost lost it for us, Mick is past in I am not saying Bucks is necessarily the best option but Mick had to go he is past it.

Also all of you trolls here bag the club for moving him on but if Hayes kicked that goal in 2010 everyone would have been saying how he needed to be sacked

 

[tesselate_]

Curious to see what they will do from a list management perspective at the end of this year -

Tony Armstrong - Delist
Luke Ball - Retire/Delist (harsh)
Marty Clarke - Delist
Ben Hudson - Retire/Delist
Quinten Lynch - Reitre/Delist
Nick Maxwell - Retired
Peter Yagmoor - Delist

That's probably what I'd expect. As for list additions we'll elevate Frost and Martin and draft Moore. If Hudson retires we'll chase ruck depth. Wingers with clean, composed disposal is a serious list need as well and I imagine we'll address that with our second round pick.

 

[4tone]

Buckleys a dud in the box. Simple. Will never win a final with him at the helm. He makes Voss, KB and Tim Watson look like genius coaches.
Aweful mistake by Eddie re Mick and Bucks. Will define his presidential reign.

you make Tony Abbott sound smart piss off back to Alaska

 

[Seedsfan]

Buckleys a dud in the box. Simple. Will never win a final with him at the helm. He makes Voss, KB and Tim Watson look like genius coaches.
Aweful mistake by Eddie re Mick and Bucks. Will define his presidential reign.

Apart from we have won a final under Bucks, that is as meany finals as Richmond has won in about 15 years

 

[Bobby_]

I'd like to hear KissStephanie's thoughts on the matter?

 

[Docker Alyssa]

I attribute it to the "succession plan".

Bucks obviously disagreed with how Mick was directing the club. His ego to prove himself was a bit zealous and with the loss of 2011 he made some knee-jerk attempts to steer the team through a list transition and try make his own mark (even though they were still in a god damn premiership window)

He steered the team out of that window with each move. Failure to retain players that gelled well in their successes.

Now paying cloke way too much money just because he is all they got down there! With his output capability (not just blind talent assessment) he's # 2 at any other club. (see Tippett at Sydney)

Just one string of disappointing moves after another.

Poor Pendlebury, Swan and beams. I feel for Pendles esp, having his best years pissed away while club direction flounders it.

 

[Blue Heart]

So why do yourself and others care so much?

That would have to be the most naïve comment I have heard all day !!! Eddie is out there pumping up the Pies 24/7, as are most of the other media outlets and many of your C' wood brethren here on BF have the arrogant and conceited view that the AFL couldn't survive without the existence of the Pies. Plus as a Blues supporter there at least 2 or 3 anti Carlton threads started every week on BF by your supporters ... so its not unrealistic to expect some return fire.

When the rest of the football world puts your team and coach under the micro scope for some justified scrutiny some of you get a bit precious to stay the least.

 

[SSSSSS]

Mick was good at getting a bunch of potatos to play to a system very well. When Buckley inherits these potatos and tries to make them shit golden eggs things turn sour very quickly.