List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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Link to Lore ’s excellent draft order thread that is updated to reflect current ladder positions

Resource - 2023 AFL Draft Order

Every trade as it happens!

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[FKASC]

Chessbrah will also if we park him behind the footy to chip scab 20 kicks

Too injury prone unlucky imo

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Chessbrah will also if we park him behind the footy to chip scab 20 kicks

Chesser will still qualify in 2024.

Not likely to have played 10 games thus season

 

[Obeanie1]

Waste of time talking about the rookie draft with our hit rate lately, in the last 10 rookie drafts the only player of any possible long term value whatsoever was Harry Edwards and the jury is still out on him.

Wasn't Jamain Jones and Culley put on the rookie list?

 

[Obeanie1]

When things are not working you have to willing to recognise it and try and improve.

We won two games last year. We may well only win two games this year. We had players running around with beer guts last year. We had players going to nightclubs in the middle of the Covid insanity. Our drafting must be close to the worst in the league over the last 10 years. We have not come even close to getting par value, let alone winning, on any of the long term contracts we were throwing around like confetti for senior players.

You can’t just sit there and pretend that no change is needed.

Who's sitting around pretending that no changes are needed?

The club is making changes.

The fans can see changes occurring and on field performance improving slowly.

We have most definitely changed our drafting.

And coaches.

And medical sports science people.

We fans aren't happy about not winning and playing finals but we have embraced the rebuild.

You just post negative Nancy rants and ignore any obvious changes or any positive improvements.

 

[Eastcoasteagle]

I'd take the AIS exhibition matches with a pinch of salt. It's less important than both the under 18 championships and NAB League or Colts.

Given the depth of outside and key position talent in the 2023 draft It's unlikely that Reid doesn't go number one unless one of those key forwards stands up and dominates.

If we unfortunately finish last, then trading or not trading pick one comes down to how closely we rate the next few players in the draft and how much other clubs are willing to give up.

One can imagine a cohort of three or four players rising up the ranks to make a top clear top five. If we could land two of those top five players and something else then the trade looks viable on paper.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I really like it to see how young players go playing against bigger bodies, as I like it when they play WAFL, SANFL, VFL seniors. It's a good test.

Not suggesting it is the be all and end all, but still a good indicator if they perform well.

 

[Obeanie1]

So have we reached the point where we've had (inc this year) two absolute crappola years and can ask (and expect to get) compensation picks from the AFL?

Let's do a comparison to Gold Coast and their 2019 compo package.
In 2018 GC finished 17th with 4 wins.
In 2019 they finished 18th with 3 wins and got a compo package.
Compo... In 2019 they got picks 1 and 22 (to go with pick 2. And remember they had picks 2, 3 and 6 in 2018).
In 2020 they got pick 11 and in 2021 pick 19.
Plus Darwin, plus pre-listing of academy players.

Compare.
In 2022 we finished 17th with 2 wins.
In 2023 it looks like 17th or 18th with maybe 3 wins but probably 1 or 2.
In addition we have lost two of our 4 first round draftees of the past 12 years to career ending concussion injuries.

In other words we are noticeably worse than GC were when they got handed the compo package from heaven.

Should we not get a package at least as good?

We won a flag 4 years ago.

Suns never have.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Chesser will still qualify in 2024.

Not likely to have played 10 games thus season

Yikes.

What's his contract status?

I'm guessing OOC end of 2024?

 

[Keys]

Yikes.

What's his contract status?

I'm guessing OOC end of 2024?

You’ll no doubt be pleased to know it’s 2025

 

[Godfather32]

Waste of time talking about the rookie draft with our hit rate lately, in the last 10 rookie drafts the only player of any possible long term value whatsoever was Harry Edwards and the jury is still out on him.

Wasn't Jamain Jones and Culley put on the rookie list?

Jones was an SSP and Culley MSD, they might be on the rookie list but they weren't taken in the rookie draft

 

[Obeanie1]

Jones was an SSP and Culley MSD, they might be on the rookie list but they weren't taken in the rookie draft

That's splitting hairs.

Both were available to be selected in the rookie draft and both ended up contracted as rookies on the Rookie list.

The reality is the SSP period and mid season draft are an extensions of the rookie draft.

Players not selected in the main draft can be selected in the following Rookie draft, SSP period or midseason draftand be added to the rookie list.

So the Rookie list has produced some depth players. But not specifically Rookies taken in the Rookie draft.

 

[RanaNaved]

Eagles have two NGA guys in the under 16 WA state squad, Caylon Seelander and Wes Walley

 

[amazingjoshy]

Eagles have two NGA guys in the under 16 WA state squad, Caylon Seelander and Wes Walley

 

[bzparkes]

Eagles have two NGA guys in the under 16 WA state squad, Caylon Seelander and Wes Walley

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

I agree. Wouldn't that be Warren Koefed then?

My question was genuine. Phil mentioned people departing the club, issues identified etc etc. I'm genuinely curious if anyone else actually left other than who i mentioned?

What if our head of S&C has been saying that our training ground is too hard and its leading to all these lower leg injuries?

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

I think everyone is wary as we see it a lot - #1 not the best player, or #1 pick ends up and average player at best.

And we all know the March #1 doesn't always end up Nov #1, or that other equivalent options emerge.

But right now he is streeting them.

There's rare players that are elite at all ages and all comps. This is what you're hoping for if you draft Reid - the guy who in 2 to 3 seasons is firmly lodged in the top 5 of the AFL.

There's more than a reasonable chance that he is this guy.

I remember tom scully being the number 1 pick without anyone being in the conversation for the 2 years leading up to his draft. Guaranteed star .

 

[Chump Change]

I remember tom scully being the number 1 pick without anyone being in the conversation for the 2 years leading up to his draft. Guaranteed star .

But what's your point? That many players are clear #1 and don't go on with it?

Everyone knows that. No one is denying that.

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

The most senior of the players who went out on the nightclub incident and to me was nowhere near the worst player on our list last year was essentially delisted from that point on.

Yes the club stuck with him and he is now the captain of the Wafl Eagles side. Yes the WAFL eagles side has been horrendous but Nelson has quite easily been the best player for the side this year and is as fit as ever and is leading from the front.

I would also ask if you have ever worked in a modern club environment. I'm not talking at AFL level here but with teens and young adults who are all a young group in the same field? You can't just tear kids apart these days. Even guys in their late 20's, they will just buck against it rather than knuckle down. As much as people don't like it they need to be led and fed positivity to get the best out of themselves. Long gone are the days where you destroy blokes at half time or after a match and get a good result long term. The coaching team loses the players.

Yes the players weren't fit enough last year and standards had slid and perhaps even the year before as well. I don't think anyone now is denying that. However there have been huge changes at the club and the club tried for even more footy staff personnel changes over the summer. We came out of the preseason the fittest i've seen the team in a long time. s**t they were still trying to shore up the recruiting department in March.

Shuey offered to step down as captain but was backed in by the club and the players themselves vote on who the captain should be. If the club came out and said sorry, we're vetoing your vote and installing someone else as captain how do you think that goes for club morale?

Nicnat being given a 2 year contract and redden not being given a contract for this year are probably the only two things I would have liked the club to handle differently. (internally) Redden would have been really useful this year and I certainly would have backed him in with his durability over others we kept. Also it basically came down to Shuey or Redden. How did we go the last time we essentially delisted sacked and delisted a club captain? Not very well. Also on keeping Nicnat with an ongoing issue with his Achilles it goes both ways.

Nicnat basically put every ounce of his soul into the game last year to see Kennedy sent off with a win and the achilles hasn't been right since. But lets look at that, it's something he has been managing for years and is likely in relation to his knee injuries. Kennedy was diagnosed with a degenerative knee condition in 2013/2014, yet won 2 (should have been 3) colemans after that point and became our greatest ever goal kicker. With injuries like this you don't know how long a player has left and secondly Nicnat gets paid the AFL ambassador money which is outside the salary and soft cap at 300k per year and is on basically minimum AFL salary for an established player above that. He is worth more around the club as a leader, teacher of a young ruck brigade and well and truly worth more from a revenue perspective. Also we don't have another player the AFL would pay on the list to be an ambassador for the game.

The McGovern and Gaff deals were the right thing at the time, the Yeo contract was the right decision at the time. The Tim Kelly trade was expensive and we were ****ed over by the BODE but it was the right call for a team going all in on a premiership. I still truly believe Geelong had no interest in trading him to us the year before. The club on the last day even caved and offered Geelong everything it asked for and was turned down.

What more do people want? This is at the very least no matter who you put in the roles another 3 years before we start to rise again. Or would you like to cripple the clubs future by trading for the now (if you can even get players to move and then they would be on inflated salaries plus the loss of draft capital) only to end up being a mid table team and having to have another rebuilt in 5 years time.

With the system that is in place now plus a tasmanian club coming in the club basically has to draft and develop perfectly plus get lucky on a few trades and free agents otherwise we won't be winning a flag. Academies, FS, more teams picking in each round of the draft plus every club doing their best to be at the height of professionalism means winning a flag for a WA team is nigh on impossible. We were damned lucky to win one when we did and then the AFL completely destroyed our game plan with rule changes and a group of family oriented blokes got pissed off during the first Covid hub for which we were given no end date. Literally the guinea pigs for a once in a lifetime event. At the end of that season a guy who probably had 1 more good year in him was moved on despite being well liked by the players because of it. You combine all this with a soft cap 30% lower than the club is used to spending on the football department (not accounting for inflation) and we literally have our hands tied behind our back.

The only other thing I would say we have ****ed up was in keeping Nisbett around. Vozzo should have been handed the reigns, maybe with Nisbett in the background for a year when he was ready. But Nisbett held on, Vozzo got rightly pissed, had some time off and came back in a less significant role before being poached later on.

The drafting hasn't been great but the picks haven't been great either. For most of those drafts and picks we were playing lucky dip and didn't get so lucky. But we did get lucky enough to trade in the right players and have a couple of late draft picks light it up and win us a premiership.

This will be the last time i respond to you on this, I literally have no-one on ignore but your posting is just a revolving cycle of shitting on the club with no solutions. Seriously come up with a viable solution or even close to one and I'll respect it and respond.

The info i have been told about vosso is that he took all the covid lay offs very personal. It really devastated him . He tried so hard to find ways around sacking so many people but was met with road blocks from the AFL every time because we had to play by the same rules set to keep the North Melbourne and saint kildas in the competition .

He took the time off and came back in a role with a less personal role with the players and staff .

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

But what's your point? That many players are clear #1 and don't go on with it?

Everyone knows that. No one is denying that.

My point is junior form is no guarantee. If someone offered us 3 good first rounders for pick 1 you would have to take it and the stats back that up .

3 top 10 picks start the car

 

[Chump Change]

My point is junior form is no guarantee.

It's a straw argument that you are pushing onto other people. You're assuming people who don't agree with you are automatically 180 degrees away. This is not the case. Everyone knows the #1 pick often doesn't turn out to be a superstar.

If someone offered us 3 good first rounders for pick 1 you would have to take it and the stats back that up .

3 top 10 picks start the car

Is this realistic though? Adelaide offered North #4 plus 2x future 1st rounders for the JHF #1 pick. Even though it was rejected, it was considered a crazy high bid. Future first rounders aren't necessarily top 10 picks either.

Let's say the draft was tomorrow and Reid is streets ahead and a club offers 5, 6, and 8. You'd take it. But is it realistic to expect someone to get those picks together and then offer it?

As soon as you start getting into #5 + #11 and first rounder next year that could be pick 5 but also could be pick 14, just take a punt and hope the guy is one of those rare breeds that fulfils all potential.

 

[JackOutback]

Great, another player who goes missing when the heat's on.

 

[chaddy22]

I really like it to see how young players go playing against bigger bodies, as I like it when they play WAFL, SANFL, VFL seniors. It's a good test.

Not suggesting it is the be all and end all, but still a good indicator if they perform well.

I think colts who play wafl league as 17 or 18 years old usually develop quicker.Think of Coniglio,Duncan Rich,Darling,Spp and lots of others.Many of the Draftees we have recruited have only played Tac or under 18's and have struggled to adjust to playing Wafl league in their first year.

 

[navi_]

It's a straw argument that you are pushing onto other people. You're assuming people who don't agree with you are automatically 180 degrees away. This is not the case. Everyone knows the #1 pick often doesn't turn out to be a superstar.




Is this realistic though? Adelaide offered North #4 plus 2x future 1st rounders for the JHF #1 pick. Even though it was rejected, it was considered a crazy high bid. Future first rounders aren't necessarily top 10 picks either.

Let's say the draft was tomorrow and Reid is streets ahead and a club offers 5, 6, and 8. You'd take it. But is it realistic to expect someone to get those picks together and then offer it?

As soon as you start getting into #5 + #11 and first rounder next year that could be pick 5 but also could be pick 14, just take a punt and hope the guy is one of those rare breeds that fulfils all potential.

You've contradicted yourself?

"Everyone knows the #1 pick often doesn't turn out to be a superstar"
"Just take a punt and hope the guy is one of those rare breeds that fulfils all potential."

Why would you take the punt given the first statement.

Cant remember where i saw it but there was a media beat up about what Adelaide did with the capital they offered North

• drafted rachele
• traded for dawson
• traded for rankine

Insane outcome from the draft capital that they nearly threw at jhf

Would easily take a similar offer, even if it involves future 1sts

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

Is this realistic though? Adelaide offered North #4 plus 2x future 1st rounders for the JHF #1 pick. Even though it was rejected, it was considered a crazy high bid. Future first rounders aren't necessarily top 10 picks either.

Let's say the draft was tomorrow and Reid is streets ahead and a club offers 5, 6, and 8. You'd take it. But is it realistic to expect someone to get those picks together and then offer it?

As soon as you start getting into #5 + #11 and first rounder next year that could be pick 5 but also could be pick 14, just take a punt and hope the guy is one of those rare breeds that fulfils all potential.

Let me correct you on the offer

Adelaide offered
- pick 4, Melbourne's F1 (premiers in 2021 so valued at 18), Crow's F1 (expected by most to be closer to 10 than to 1 so lets call it 7)
for
- pick 1 and Norf's F2 (expected by most to be pick 19)

The impact of the Dees F1 for and Norf's F2, Adelaide were giving what was likely to be the 2022 pick 18 and getting back the 2022 pick 19. A pick upgrade of 1 position.

So what was really offered was 2 first round picks and a single position improvement on Norf's F2.



Now lets clarify why this dialogue is more likely than you suggest

In terms of being offered 5, 6, and 8. That could well be GWS. They offer up Tigers and their own R1 this year plus their own R1 in 2023. I expect they would want back a R2 so that could be Port's R2 likely to be around 30 (which we know you do not really value very highly).

It may not be 5, 6 and 8 but likely to be 5 and 2 picks inside the top 10. Giving up Reid and a second rounder makes this proposition very tempting.

 

[ziad]

I remember tom scully being the number 1 pick without anyone being in the conversation for the 2 years leading up to his draft. Guaranteed star .

But he was never a Jack Watts

 

[Chump Change]

You've contradicted yourself?

"Everyone knows the #1 pick often doesn't turn out to be a superstar"
"Just take a punt and hope the guy is one of those rare breeds that fulfils all potential."

Why would you take the punt given the first statement.

There is no contradiction.

You're acting as if there's a risk taking Reid at 1 but not a risk by not taking him.