List Mgmt. Contract, Trade & Draftee Discussion, 2023: Picks 1,20,34,39,53 ,58

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Link to contract status of all players

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew, Baker Requested Trades - Barrass, Darling Current contract status (Updated 18/9/24) : Total 41 Players (Pending Trades) - Main List (35) Rookie List (4) Cat B (2) Contracted to 2028 (2) : Liam Duggan (11/12/96) - Signed a 4 year...

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Resource - 2023 AFL Draft Order

Every trade as it happens!

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[THE A5]

That's because English emphasizes many of the tertiary attributes of ruckmen very well, whilst being decent (but not great) at the many attributes that are absolute priority for rucks. As an example, compare the two years (both have played 22 games for their respective seasons):
Ruck Contests - 1299 (Naitanui 2021) v 1751 (Tim English 2023) = English +452 ruck contests
Hitouts - 687 (Naitanui 2021) v 694 (Tim English 2023) = English +7 total HOs
Hitouts-to-Advantage - 270 (Naitanui 2021) v 233 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +37 HOs-to-advantage
Hitouts Win Percentage - 52.9% (Naitanui 2021) v 39.6% (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +13.3% HO win percentage
Hitouts-to-Advantage Percentage - 39.3% (Naitanui 2021) v 33.6% (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +5.7% HOs-to-advantage percentage
Clearances - 158 (Naitanui 2021) v 71 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +87 clearances
Score Launches - 87 (Naitanui 2021) v 70 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +17 score launches
Contested Possessions - 273 (Naitanui 2021) v 201 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +72 contested possessions
Clangers - 56 (Naitanui 2021) v 74 (Tim English 2023) = English +18 clangers
Inside 50s - 77 (Naitanui 2021) v 72 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +5 i50s
Goals - 3 (Naitanui 2021) v 14 (Tim English 2023) = English +11 goals
Contested Marks - 21 (Naitanui 2021) v 27 (Tim English 2023) = English +6 contested marks

Tim English is the universal choice for AA ruckman this year.
However, when compared to Naitanui's 2021 (when uninformed people argue he shouldn't have been named) English is trounced in a number of critical stats (Hitouts Win Percentage, HOs-to-advantage, clearances, score launches, contested possessions, hardball gets, less clangers). Whereas Naitanui is edged out by English in only a couple of stats (total clearances, contested marks which people argue was a weakness of Naitanui post-knee(s) op) and really only beaten in one category (goals). But the disparity is substantial.

I don't blame English per se, he is using the attributes he has to best advantage.
But I do not like the type of ruck style he best emulates. IMO a ruckman who excels at being a link man (or even an intercept marker) is worth a substantial amount less than a precision tap ruckman who also doubles as a clearance beast.

If Nic Nat played in Melbourne he world be viewed as a god. Footy media is quite dismissive of him and the average joe basically consume their info from that than watching him and basing their on views. Had he played over east it would be quite the other way with him probably getting the same treatment as cyril rioli. While rioli was a gun i kinda had a laugh when they compared him to the greatest indigenous players.

 

[Bleedblueandgold]

No doubt Shuey would have a few AA's if he played over east.

 

[dajesmac]

Wonder if we could tempt the Hawks to trade up to our pick if their man is Duursma.

 

[TerryFilk]

Cheers!

Yeah sorry that’s what I meant. Do we think he will go before our chance to bid?


Seems to be slipping in a few mocks!

There’s definitely a chance, Freo are the danger as he would fit what they need imo. Also a lot of other teams always have a need for crafty forwards.

I’d say it’s 40/60 (40 being likely, 60 being unlikely) right now that we are able to match bids.

 

[stylish]

I don't want Naughton. He can't kick for goal to save himself.

We don't need an OA partner yet. How bout we just focus on how to defend ball movement, win possession and then keep the ball in our half.

I would much rather chase Logan McDonald or van rooan or Jed Walter in 5 yrs when we are primed for finals footy and can afford to give away draft picks.

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

Wait 5 years - seriously??

 

[dinnaz]

Yeah the stuff Eddie Betts was subjected to was pretty gross mate.

Obviously if confidential information of his had been shared and accessible to anyone it should have happened. But the whole point of the army style camp is to make things uncomfortable for you. To be put in a situation where you are under pressure, under duress and it's up to only you to get through it without all the hand holding.

Footy is a physical sport where blokes will take your head off and say everything under the sun to get you off your game. You can play that yet if then on a specifically mentally challenging camp, i'd be very worried if you fell to pieces if a complete stranger told you they f***** your wife and that your mother doesn't love you.

Eddie Betts didn't have a great experience (which is kind of the point) and he personally fell apart but no one else seemed to have as big of a problem. That's 1 player or 2% of the list which the media ran with.
The Collective Mind group may have offended him and got things wrong but that's 1 instance to 1 player over two years of working together with the adelaide team.

They made a grand final as well in that period so the CM experiment can't be seen as a failure by the coaching group at all. Maybe a bit more of the tough love and we don't capitulate in the hubs and over the 2019-2021 period.

 

[Bender_]

Obviously if confidential information of his had been shared and accessible to anyone it should have happened. But the whole point of the army style camp is to make things uncomfortable for you. To be put in a situation where you are under pressure, under duress and it's up to only you to get through it without all the hand holding.

Footy is a physical sport where blokes will take your head off and say everything under the sun to get you off your game. You can play that yet if then on a specifically mentally challenging camp, i'd be very worried if you fell to pieces if a complete stranger told you they f***** your wife and that your mother doesn't love you.

Eddie Betts didn't have a great experience (which is kind of the point) and he personally fell apart but no one else seemed to have as big of a problem. That's 1 player or 2% of the list which the media ran with.
The Collective Mind group may have offended him and got things wrong but that's 1 instance to 1 player over two years of working together with the adelaide team.

They made a grand final as well in that period so the CM experiment can't be seen as a failure by the coaching group at all. Maybe a bit more of the tough love and we don't capitulate in the hubs and over the 2019-2021 period.

1: The "CM experiment" was after they lost the grand final.

2: It's not the 1950's mate. The idea of toughening up is pretty well dated. You can build resilience without being tied to a tree and having people yell stuff at you.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong - but Betts' wife was pregnant at the time and they refused to let him contact her? ****en ridiculous. I'd brain campaigners if I was put in that situation.

I can see you're of the opinion that the entire Collective Minds stuff is something worthwhile. I unfortunately totally disagree with you and probably best to leave it there. The Crows imploded on the back of it and are just recovering. For the record I rate Pyke and believe he deserves a second chance.

 

[eaglespremiers]

James Frawley gets you band 1 compo.

Ben McKay makes James Frawley look like Glen Jakovich by comparison.

 

[Wedgetailed Westerner]

AA is usually all about stat padders you peanut. Reinforces my point

Now, Now Stop being derogatory towards Peanuts

 

[dinnaz]

1: The "CM experiment" was after they lost the grand final.

2: It's not the 1950's mate. The idea of toughening up is pretty well dated. You can build resilience without being tied to a tree and having people yell stuff at you.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong - but Betts' wife was pregnant at the time and they refused to let him contact her? *en ridiculous. I'd brain campaigners if I was put in that situation.

I can see you're of the opinion that the entire Collective Minds stuff is something worthwhile. I unfortunately totally disagree with you and probably best to leave it there. The Crows imploded on the back of it and are just recovering. For the record I rate Pyke and believe he deserves a second chance.

CM was there at the end of 2016 including that stupid power stance stuff so there was a lot going on over a long period of time.
Dated yes, ineffective i'm not so sure. Would work for some but not for everyone.
That's not a good look I agree that CM went too far there, but then again she wasn't close to giving birth and he chose to play footy and miss the birth of the twins later that year anyway.
Nah they sound like a bunch of c*nts, just in an industry chasing that extra 1% I can appreciate the crows taking a different angle of approach and exploring if they could gain that edge.

To pin it all on Pike was pretty harsh considering the partnership was successful with no hint of malice.
It's way off appointing a doctor with a dodgy history and no scruples (Essendon), or selling positive player drug tests to the media, and so on.

 

[maverick001]

On Gettable Cal Twomey said the Eagles are interested in a ruck this year, and specifically Sweet and Flynn.

No to Flynn

battler

 

[maverick001]

I’m probably on an island by myself, but I would love an Allen and Naughton forward duo.

I’d offer them our first round pick this year in exchange for Naughton and their first, but I wouldn’t consider just giving them 2 or 3 with nothing good coming back.

I don’t think they’ll get a better offer than that next year, as I still believe pick 2 is better than the 2 mid 1sts they might get from someone else next offseason, also puts them ahead of the Croft bid.

They have JUH who’s on the verge of becoming a bonafide star, Darcy, Lobb, Croft is incoming, I think cashing in on Naughton could be a decent outcome for them.

Problem is they are exactly the same age so good luck phasing that out in 7 years time

 

[Grahame]

On Yeo, there are a lot of things off-field that he probably still does when he is not playing that makes it valuable to keep him around.
Teaching the kids coming through even when not on the field is a help.
Would I prefer he be on the ground for 24 rounds, sure. I'm not pushing him out the door though, not unless something bloody good comes back in.

Got a bit of animal in him which we’re lacking.

 

[Avalor]

I hope not but all reports lately have said it will be band 1 compo.

Were it so, it would be total BS. Corrupt VFL all over it, stinking it up.

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

1: The "CM experiment" was after they lost the grand final.

2: It's not the 1950's mate. The idea of toughening up is pretty well dated. You can build resilience without being tied to a tree and having people yell stuff at you.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong - but Betts' wife was pregnant at the time and they refused to let him contact her? *en ridiculous. I'd brain campaigners if I was put in that situation.

I can see you're of the opinion that the entire Collective Minds stuff is something worthwhile. I unfortunately totally disagree with you and probably best to leave it there. The Crows imploded on the back of it and are just recovering. For the record I rate Pyke and believe he deserves a second chance.

Where are the eye witness testimonies that any of the stuff you claim hapenned actually hapenned?

I don't know what went on at this camp. Maybe it was stupid. Maybe it was a bad idea. But why couldn't the senior players just give that feedback to Pyke and Burton and they can then all agree not to do it again and thats the end of it? I am pretty sure if they did and effectively communicated the depth of the playing groups negative feelings about it then Pyke and Burton (or anybody in their positions) would have listenned and nobody needed to get sacked. Why are some of the players on that camp like Betts still sooking and moaning and crying about it 7 or 8 years later. Get over it FFS. Move on with your life.

I have always suspected that there were clearly other issues and ill feeling and discontent at that club for other reasons at that time and this camp was the catalyst that brought it all out rather than caused it. And it sounds like the players didn't like Pyke and used this as a cudgel to hit him with and get him sacked. I don't think an otherwise emotionally healthy grown man could still be as upset as some of these guys are all this time later.

I am also suspicious at the lack of specificity and detail in the complaints from the complainants. It has been like the Hawthorn racism report. We are told to brace ourselves for all these horrible grisly details of Guantanamo Bay like treatment of certain people. It gets built up and built up and built up. And details and specific allegations and eye witness testimonies of all these terrible and horrible things that allegedly hapenned never come. If they had some really dynamite allegations to make thats what they would lead with to make their case. But they don't. They never provide any details. Because it is all Nothingburger Weak Sauce.

 

[salo]

I am also suspicious at the lack of specificity and detail in the complaints from the complainants. It has been like the Hawthorn racism report. We are told to brace ourselves for all these horrible grisly details of Guantanamo Bay like treatment of certain people. It gets built up and built up and built up. And details and specific allegations and eye witness testimonies of all these terrible and horrible things that allegedly hapenned never come. If they had some really dynamite allegations to make thats what they would lead with to make their case. But they don't. They never provide any details. Because it is all Nothingburger Weak Sauce.

This is such a bad take. But then it's hardly your fault you were born in the wrong century.

 

[3agles87]

Where are the eye witness testimonies that any of the stuff you claim hapenned actually hapenned?

I don't know what went on at this camp. Maybe it was stupid. Maybe it was a bad idea. But why couldn't the senior players just give that feedback to Pyke and Burton and they can then all agree not to do it again and thats the end of it? I am pretty sure if they did and effectively communicated the depth of the playing groups negative feelings about it then Pyke and Burton (or anybody in their positions) would have listenned and nobody needed to get sacked. Why are some of the players on that camp like Betts still sooking and moaning and crying about it 7 or 8 years later. Get over it FFS. Move on with your life.

I have always suspected that there were clearly other issues and ill feeling and discontent at that club for other reasons at that time and this camp was the catalyst that brought it all out rather than caused it. And it sounds like the players didn't like Pyke and used this as a cudgel to hit him with and get him sacked. I don't think an otherwise emotionally healthy grown man could still be as upset as some of these guys are all this time later.

I am also suspicious at the lack of specificity and detail in the complaints from the complainants. It has been like the Hawthorn racism report. We are told to brace ourselves for all these horrible grisly details of Guantanamo Bay like treatment of certain people. It gets built up and built up and built up. And details and specific allegations and eye witness testimonies of all these terrible and horrible things that allegedly hapenned never come. If they had some really dynamite allegations to make thats what they would lead with to make their case. But they don't. They never provide any details. Because it is all Nothingburger Weak Sauce.

Excellent story telling narrative going on here.

Particularly enjoyed the ’Show me the proof’ beginning regarding the camp that has been well reported on, only to then go on a rambling ‘I have always suspected’ narrative that allows you to spurt out your conspiracy theory view of the world.

I don’t trust the vAFL or its media either, but you are next level.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

That's because English emphasizes many of the tertiary attributes of ruckmen very well, whilst being decent (but not great) at the many attributes that are absolute priority for rucks. As an example, compare the two years (both have played 22 games for their respective seasons):
Ruck Contests - 1299 (Naitanui 2021) v 1751 (Tim English 2023) = English +452 ruck contests
Hitouts - 687 (Naitanui 2021) v 694 (Tim English 2023) = English +7 total HOs
Hitouts-to-Advantage - 270 (Naitanui 2021) v 233 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +37 HOs-to-advantage
Hitouts Win Percentage - 52.9% (Naitanui 2021) v 39.6% (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +13.3% HO win percentage
Hitouts-to-Advantage Percentage - 39.3% (Naitanui 2021) v 33.6% (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +5.7% HOs-to-advantage percentage
Clearances - 158 (Naitanui 2021) v 71 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +87 clearances
Score Launches - 87 (Naitanui 2021) v 70 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +17 score launches
Contested Possessions - 273 (Naitanui 2021) v 201 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +72 contested possessions
Clangers - 56 (Naitanui 2021) v 74 (Tim English 2023) = English +18 clangers
Inside 50s - 77 (Naitanui 2021) v 72 (Tim English 2023) = Naitanui +5 i50s
Goals - 3 (Naitanui 2021) v 14 (Tim English 2023) = English +11 goals
Contested Marks - 21 (Naitanui 2021) v 27 (Tim English 2023) = English +6 contested marks

Tim English is the universal choice for AA ruckman this year.
However, when compared to Naitanui's 2021 (when uninformed people argue he shouldn't have been named) English is trounced in a number of critical stats (Hitouts Win Percentage, HOs-to-advantage, clearances, score launches, contested possessions, hardball gets, less clangers). Whereas Naitanui is edged out by English in only a couple of stats (total clearances, contested marks which people argue was a weakness of Naitanui post-knee(s) op) and really only beaten in one category (goals). But the disparity is substantial.

I don't blame English per se, he is using the attributes he has to best advantage.
But I do not like the type of ruck style he best emulates. IMO a ruckman who excels at being a link man (or even an intercept marker) is worth a substantial amount less than a precision tap ruckman who also doubles as a clearance beast.

I think his best comparison is not Nic Nat but Dean Cox, the piece that is missing though is that Cox (in his prime not his final years), was also a very fine tap ruckman. Despite all that, Cox and Nic Nat are all timers. THere's very few ruckman that are at that level so the likeliehood is that we will need to pick up a ruck with gaps in their game.

I don't mind English, if that's the best we can get, but i'd be worried about length of contract and cost, while also conscious we'd need to build a midfield with contested mids who can win their own clearances, rather than relying on service.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Yeah, but then the secret sauce gets added and hey presto... James Frawley gets you band 1 compo.

Frawley had played almost twice as many games as McKay while only being 1 year older. He'd also made an All Australian team.

McKay has zero accomplishments.

 

[WCErevival]

Other teams always get so much for their tall players regardless of talent. We should sell off Jamo for a second rounder.

 

[FKASC]

Other teams always get so much for their tall players regardless of talent. We should sell off Jamo for a second rounder.

What did we get for Ian Downsborough?

 

[darksquare]

Frawley had played almost twice as many games as McKay while only being 1 year older. He'd also made an All Australian team.

McKay has zero accomplishments.

Didn't he win half a Coleman Medal?

 

[Hook461123]

As good as Naughton is (he’s a terrible kick at goal tho) I don’t want to trade for him. I am sick of trading down our draft picks.
We need to get a big free agent in rather than using our draft capital. Considering where we are as a team, we need some serious top 5 quality draft picks. We should be trying to manufacture another top 5 pick rather then trading ours away

 

[WCErevival]

What did we get for Ian Downsborough?

A crackhead and a weird looking bird man.

 

[Magnum27]

If the price is right absolutely i would trade him at this part of his career, he is not going to get any better.

A first rnd pick would have to be part of the deal for starters though.