Hah, but do you see the hypocrisy of the media reporting of incidents and the Vic Police whinging though?
Never mind the fans of ARF.
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Craig Foster, again....
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Hah, but do you see the hypocrisy of the media reporting of incidents and the Vic Police whinging though?
Never mind the fans of ARF.
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These same hyphenated Australians don't realize how Australian they are until the visit the hallowed 'Old Country' and they get an understanding of why their ancestors fled in the first place.
smasha
It's Time!
Correct.
If you hate Australia ,you will cling to your "home country" and if you love this country,you will be proud to be called an Australian.
Considering the amount of people that watch/play soccer, are you really arrogant enough to suggest that THAT many people are wrong. Every single religion/country that chose it as its number 1 sport is wrong?
Two sports in the world that are beyond question are cricket and soccer. Thats just a fact
Two sports in the world that are beyond question are cricket and soccer. Thats just a fact
I don't understand what you mean about the hypocrisy? I'm sure if there was ever an incident in the AFL on the level of the one between Millwall/West Ham it would be reported and talked about hugely, and I'm sure the AFL would be disgraced by it. In fact, even the stories about the bad parents at junior footy games received quite a lot of media attention.
Gone Critical
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I am not anti soccer. Went to the last World Cup, had a great time
But there are differences in the scoring system. In my opinion any sport that allows only occasional scoring allows a much inferior team to have a better chance of remaining competitve. Its just an observation. I think a correct one. This is what makes the FA cup the competition it is
Discuss if you want
But that is the point, the reporting is completely disproportionate, and then people like yourself attempt to somehow link overseas incidents to the local game because it fits your arguments. It is unfair in the extreme.
What we need is fact, not hear say and rabid fan opinion. My guess is Football would come out looking rather good and far better than most in this thread would make you believe.
Gee, did Craig Foster really generate all this??
First thing that strikes reading his article was that whilst Richard Hinds was focussing on Australia, that Foster had to do like so many others in this discussion, and that was to leave Australia real quick.
The irony is that internally, the pro-soccer 'zealots' (so, I'm not including all soccer fans, just the moron Foz like element) whinge and whine about the 'behemoth' that is the AFL and media domination and insular populations with blinkers.
And yet, losing an argument, Foster jumps into the warm and fuzzy arms of the global behemoth that is the 'world game' that dominates media, 12 months a year feeding insular and blinkered populations.
Foster's effort just makes me prouder that my parents emmigrated to Australia rather than South America back in the 50s.
Foster also rants on about comparing to the SoO and AFL GF. I don't know how well he read the Hinds article, as, whilst Hinds did mention the SoO (NRL), his AFL match was NOT the GF, he was referring to 90,000 at a Collingwood vs Carlton match. That Foster has to draw upon some game in South America is sad - because, of the worlds great sporting events, you'd wanna attend a Carl v Coll or Coll v Ess (Anzac day) game if you're a real sports tourist. Just as you'd want to attend soccer at Wembley, Baseball at Yankee Stadium or cricket at Lords. Who gives a toss about soccer at Hindmarsh!!?!??
The saddest thing about soccer zealots like Foster is that, even unlike the Rugby zealots who seem to think that liking BOTH kinds of Rugby is a sporting diet of diversity (a bit like liking both kinds of music,...country AND western) - - Foster is worse, he ONLY knows soccer. Nothing else. He is all the poorer for it.
First thing that strikes reading his article was that whilst Richard Hinds was focussing on Australia, that Foster had to do like so many others in this discussion, and that was to leave Australia real quick.
The irony is that internally, the pro-soccer 'zealots' (so, I'm not including all soccer fans, just the moron Foz like element) whinge and whine about the 'behemoth' that is the AFL and media domination and insular populations with blinkers.
And yet, losing an argument, Foster jumps into the warm and fuzzy arms of the global behemoth that is the 'world game' that dominates media, 12 months a year feeding insular and blinkered populations.
Foster's effort just makes me prouder that my parents emmigrated to Australia rather than South America back in the 50s.
Foster also rants on about comparing to the SoO and AFL GF. I don't know how well he read the Hinds article, as, whilst Hinds did mention the SoO (NRL), his AFL match was NOT the GF, he was referring to 90,000 at a Collingwood vs Carlton match. That Foster has to draw upon some game in South America is sad - because, of the worlds great sporting events, you'd wanna attend a Carl v Coll or Coll v Ess (Anzac day) game if you're a real sports tourist. Just as you'd want to attend soccer at Wembley, Baseball at Yankee Stadium or cricket at Lords. Who gives a toss about soccer at Hindmarsh!!?!??
The saddest thing about soccer zealots like Foster is that, even unlike the Rugby zealots who seem to think that liking BOTH kinds of Rugby is a sporting diet of diversity (a bit like liking both kinds of music,...country AND western) - - Foster is worse, he ONLY knows soccer. Nothing else. He is all the poorer for it.
To a point yes, but the whole point of the scoring system in Football allows for teams to use a variety of tactics to attempt to negate the opposition much more readily allowing for a multi-layered game. Sure the game is about scoring more than the opposition, but using that as a metric to why a game is better than another is just skimming the surface.
Sure ARF has tactics, but nothing to the extremes that the round ball game has. And that perhaps has largely something to do with both the number of people playing the game and the size of the field in use.
Both work against AFL in this regard.
smasha
It's Time!
Penalties are a big blite on soccer.
Refs need to red card divers more.
Anyway soccer isn't a better game as Foster reckons.
Both have their plusses and minuses.
I've seen some awful soccer games between world known teams that I'd rather watch the Sth Morang Seconds playing Aussie Rules.
Soccer isn't head and shoulders above Aussie Rules.
That's just BS.
I love both games too.
I've seen Richmond be terrible for a long long time and I'm still as passionate about the game as ever.
Our game competes on the world stage.
It's not the game that's the problem,it's humans being stubborn.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Refs need to red card divers more.
Anyway soccer isn't a better game as Foster reckons.
Both have their plusses and minuses.
I've seen some awful soccer games between world known teams that I'd rather watch the Sth Morang Seconds playing Aussie Rules.
Soccer isn't head and shoulders above Aussie Rules.
That's just BS.
I love both games too.
I've seen Richmond be terrible for a long long time and I'm still as passionate about the game as ever.
Our game competes on the world stage.
It's not the game that's the problem,it's humans being stubborn.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
That's all very true.
And whether anyone sees that as a good or bad thing is in the eye of the beholder.
Maybe football should determine the champion by a seperate little side activity after the actual game finishes.
even worse - the opposition can score a goal for you! off any part of their anatomy
gives a whole new meaning to @r$ey goal
Gone Critical
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I agree with you. Tactically soccer is more complex and the scoring system aids this. Not anything to do with what I said though.
My initial comment came when a prev poster said AFL could never have a FA cup style comp with a team from the 1st div opposing a team from the 7th. It was used as a criticism of AFL.
My point was simply the FA cup works, and it is a great competition, because the scoring system in soccer aids it. Not a criticism just an observation.
Most other sports couldnt do this because the disparity between scores would render the competition pointless
Beyond what question?
scoring systems.
Soccer lacks qualitative component, as well as the ability for off set scoring.
1 pt for anything and everything is severely limiting. It means, a bit like the book about the-definitive-and-authoritative-guide-to-the-six-basic-plot-lines for movies, there really are just a very limited number of plot lines to soccer.
Please don't fall 0-2 behind, because, there's so rarely any coming back from that (esp in the A-League).
Basketball 3 pointers are a great example of a qualitative score.
Aust Football goals vs a touched behind is a qualitative score.
Both Rugby codes have off set scoring achieved through the combination of a variety of score values for tries, conversions, field and penalty goals.
Aust Football has the contentious behind - a point for missing some say, and one might argue it ought only be used as a count back if goals are level. However, in real time, it allows offset scoring, the glorious goal for goal scenarios when they happen, team A is 4 pts up, then 2 pts down, then 3 up, 3 down, 4 up again.....etc etc.
In soccer, like netball, fall behind by 1 pt, and you need to score two to get in front.
The scoring system has to be balanced by 2 key factors.
1. the negative or positive gearing of the games rule set. In soccer, it is negatively geared. Off side, x bar (vertical limit on goals), and allowing ONLY the goalie to use hands makes it a pretty negatively geared game. this encourages easy defense with too much reward for drawn games.
It also encourages playing for red cards to change the balance on the field to gain an advantage.
2. what happens after a score is achieved/conceded. Basketball gives the conceding team possession, but at the 'defensive' end. Netball alternates irrespective of scorer, but back in the middle. Aust Footy returns to the centre of the field for a 50/50 contest. These dictate the likelihood of consecutive scores, of 'momentum', or a sense of anything might happen.
Soccer as well though requires better time management. Back in the 2006 WC, FIFA's own figures showed on average only 55 mins of 'actual playing time' for the first 48 pool matches. 55 mins out of 90. The range was actually 47 to 69. A 22 min variance. There is a stunning need for a 'time on' scenario to help stop the negative time wasting. WIthout which - it just adds to the 'negative' gearing of the game.
recommendations for soccer -
- time keeping - 2 halves of 30 mins each of actual playing time. On the WC 2006 averages, that'd required about 2 halves of roughly 50 mins elapsed time to achieve.
- scoring - allow a qualitative component, i.e. goals NOT touched/deflected worth 3 pts. Any own goals, touched, deflected, worth only 1.
- scoring - if drawn, allow a count back on 'short corners', (i.e. corners gained inside the dimensions of the penalty area.
- and for fun, don't allow 'specialist' penalty takers. Whoever 'earns' the kick should take it.
Very good point and so true.
The zealots know they have absolutely nothing right here in Australia, so quickly have to start pointing somewhere else - as if that was somehow relevant.
The thing is, even when you start pointing somewhere else, the Australian game stands up very well, thank you very much.
Exaggerated rubbish.
Nearly half of all soccer goals are from set pieces, own goals or long range speculative shots.
In other words, the outcome of many soccer games has absolutely nothing to do with the tactics or general skills on display, but rather, one moment can determine a game: it might be a moment of incredible unsurpassed skill and team play, but just as often, it is one moment of madness, luck, or both.
For instance, you can write a long analysis of the final between GCU and the Victory, the patter of play, who kept the better possession, which wing was preferred, who the play went through, whether a short game or a more direct game was preferred, etc, etc
But at the end of the day, the game was won because a defender slotted the goal from the set piece - absolutely nothing to do with everything you may have described above.
In Australian Football, if you are on top in ball use, possession, tactics, etc - you will win the game every single time - the outcome of the game is directly related to what happened over the duration of the 120 minutes.
Proof?
The thing that I find offensive is people who suggest scoring goals in Aust Footy is easy and that the game is pretty well devoid of tactics/strategy.
Firstly - scoring goals is ruddy damned hard. It requires generally a lot of things to go right for you unless your team is so far and away superior to the opposition.
Tactics and strategy exist across the field and the size of the field means that tactics and strategy can vary depending on where in the field you are, the wind direction, and other factors.
What is clear is that Aust Footy is a more 'dynamic' game, greater freedom however,
lining up an AFL team vs a VAFA or EFL team, the AFL team will run out the opposition as each quarter draws to an end, but, also, the AFL team will be better drilled, better able to apply and execute a variety of tactics and strategies to gain an earlier advantage.
Soccer actually has pretty well more defined scenarios. For example - a penalty goal as a clear example, the ball is always kicked from the same spot and each club can have their designated specialist penalty taker. In Aust footy, anyone who earns the Free kick must take it, from whereever it was earned. Which scenario drives the greater amount of tactics/strategies able to be employed in that circumstance?
Same with a corner kick in soccer...same spot in the corner everytime...heck, at least in hockey we have short corners and long corners.
Soccer is actually pretty rigidly structured, and then on the field the presence of offside allows teams to more easily hold their formation. That actually reduces the tactical/strategic variety. It perhaps makes what is visible MORE obvious.
But being obvious isn't the measure? or is it?
Firstly - scoring goals is ruddy damned hard. It requires generally a lot of things to go right for you unless your team is so far and away superior to the opposition.
Tactics and strategy exist across the field and the size of the field means that tactics and strategy can vary depending on where in the field you are, the wind direction, and other factors.
What is clear is that Aust Footy is a more 'dynamic' game, greater freedom however,
lining up an AFL team vs a VAFA or EFL team, the AFL team will run out the opposition as each quarter draws to an end, but, also, the AFL team will be better drilled, better able to apply and execute a variety of tactics and strategies to gain an earlier advantage.
Soccer actually has pretty well more defined scenarios. For example - a penalty goal as a clear example, the ball is always kicked from the same spot and each club can have their designated specialist penalty taker. In Aust footy, anyone who earns the Free kick must take it, from whereever it was earned. Which scenario drives the greater amount of tactics/strategies able to be employed in that circumstance?
Same with a corner kick in soccer...same spot in the corner everytime...heck, at least in hockey we have short corners and long corners.
Soccer is actually pretty rigidly structured, and then on the field the presence of offside allows teams to more easily hold their formation. That actually reduces the tactical/strategic variety. It perhaps makes what is visible MORE obvious.
But being obvious isn't the measure? or is it?
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http://www.buzzle.com/articles/309223.html
According to Opta stats, as many as 42% of all the Premier League goals registered this season have originated from a dead ball.
This is from a quick google search. Article was from 2008
EDIT: Same article but more info
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/sep/18/premier-league-set-piece-goals
This doesn't even account for own goals or speculative shots
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That's because soccer is the worst sport in the world for fans deaths occuring because of who they support.
smasha
It's Time!
Great points mate.
I reckon AFL's scoring system is where it leaps ahead of soccer because it rewards the better side on the day most times.
Diving for penalties and refs giving them depending on his emotions in some situations and then when a team gets up 1-0 late in the game,players rolling around pretending to be injured to waste time.
These are things that turn off Aussie Rules supporters.
The bad thing about Aussie Rules atm is the tanking ala Carlton for draft picks.
I was at that game when Lance Whitnall had numerous set shots 10 metres or less in front of goal and missed them all.
That was the first time I felt ashamed to be an AFL fan.
I think as AFL keeps moving on,in the future it will be a more tactical game.
There are 36 players on the field so that gives the sport more options.
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