Craig Foster, again....

[Barkly St End]

Proof?

Mojito

you watch the game, grab any round, here or in the EPL, dissect the HAL finals, satisfy yourself, if you think it's a different figure, lay it on me

the point is that this "soccer is an uber tactical game compared to other games" does not stand up to close scrutiny.

However, it's true that soccer fans get hours of joy discussing soccer tactics amongst themselves, and that's fine, that's their prerogative.

But over time, you soon realise that they are saying the same things over and over, and have been saying the same things for the last 50 years.

 

[robrulz5]

Foster is an idiot.

I love my soccer.

But to put up the old firm rivalry as something brilliant to go see if just the words of a moron who either hasn't been to one or if he did he sat in some media box.

having attended a couple I can say down around the ground it can be a pretty bigoted and hate filled 90 minutes if you're in the right spot.

Been to one and loved it, the language can be a bit heavy at times but the atmosphere inside Celtic Park is awesome when the Celtic fans get going!

 

[Munro_Mick]

Great points mate.
I reckon AFL's scoring system is where it leaps ahead of soccer because it rewards the better side on the day most times.

Diving for penalties and refs giving them depending on his emotions in some situations and then when a team gets up 1-0 late in the game,players rolling around pretending to be injured to waste time.

These are things that turn off Aussie Rules supporters.

The bad thing about Aussie Rules atm is the tanking ala Carlton for draft picks.

I was at that game when Lance Whitnall had numerous set shots 10 metres or less in front of goal and missed them all.

That was the first time I felt ashamed to be an AFL fan.

Clear point we should all agree with - - there's no 'perfect' game, perfect rule set etc.

Firstly really - celebrate the differences. If all games were basically the same - then, what'd be the point?

Secondly though - loopholes. The AFL has 'em like anyone else. Alas the tanking issue was a giant off-field loophole that permeated ONTO the field and that was clumsy. Most people could see the folly of the pre 1st round concession picks. Fair enough perhaps a pick 17 or 18 (i.e. b/w rnds 1 and 2). However, the hysteria over tanking started to bring into question a coach/clubs own ability to list manage over a season/over a match. In the day, Paga takes Carey off 15 mins into last qtr with a lead safe lead or a lost cause deficit. Is that tanking? Some of the punters betting margins would claim it is.

Around loopholes - I like that the original rules of soccer did not mention the head. Since handling the ball was outlawed (esp once the 'fair catch' was deleted from the rules), then, what do you do......the rules say no hands, but, don't say that you MUST use your feet. Therefore, the 'head' is a loophole in the rules. Realistically, it's a bit crazy - - who in their right mind would suggest "Hey, I've got a great idea, how about if I use my head to strike the ball!!!!". Madness really. ANd that loophole never got closed.

It is the irony of soccer - the claims that it's the 'true football', but, very little of it's rules dictate use of foot for a specific reward. i.e. a goal is scored, not kicked. Fair enough, a penalty and corner are kicked, but, then, a sideline ball is thrown back in (that's still an oddity). In Aust Footy for example, the KICK has two clear rewards. A. only a kick can score a goal and B. only a kick can result in a mark being paid.

I wonder if Tim Cahill could manage to header a penalty shot??

 

[Barkly St End]

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/309223.html

According to Opta stats, as many as 42% of all the Premier League goals registered this season have originated from a dead ball.


This is from a quick google search. Article was from 2008

EDIT: Same article but more info

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/sep/18/premier-league-set-piece-goals

This doesn't even account for own goals or speculative shots

Terrific links, and backs up what I was saying.

Incredibly, in 2009, 7 EPL clubs had scored 60+% of their goals from set pieces!

And that's not even including own goals and speculative long range shots.

Now none of that fusses me at all, soccer can still be an enjoyable game, and good luck to all Aust soccer fans.

But my point is that soccer fans exaggerate this idea about soccer being some sort of mystical game in a tactical sense.

It's not. The basic tactical play is very easily understood, even by the worlds uneducated masses, and not only that, at least half of all soccer goals have precious little to do with actual tactical team play, as these stats prove.

 

[mojito]

Mojito

you watch the game, grab any round, here or in the EPL, dissect the HAL finals, satisfy yourself, if you think it's a different figure, lay it on me

So you've got no proof then? Come on...out with it. Don't deflect it onto me, BSE, I'm not the one making grandiose statements.

 

[Barkly St End]

So you've got no proof then? Come on...out with it. Don't deflect it onto me, BSE, I'm not the one making grandiose statements.

Check the links above, knock yourself out.

But in truth, if you watch and follow the game, you shouldn't need the stats, they are self-evident

 

[mojito]

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/309223.html

According to Opta stats, as many as 42% of all the Premier League goals registered this season have originated from a dead ball.


This is from a quick google search. Article was from 2008

EDIT: Same article but more info

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/sep/18/premier-league-set-piece-goals

This doesn't even account for own goals or speculative shots

Nice links, but that's just in the Premier League. Barkly made the assertion that; 'Nearly half of all soccer goals are from set pieces, own goals or long range speculative shots.'

 

[Munro_Mick]

I think as AFL keeps moving on,in the future it will be a more tactical game.

There are 36 players on the field so that gives the sport more options.

Yep, simple maths dictates that the more variables you have, the more permutations there are.

The size of the field is often overlooked by people. IN the rectangle field games, it's a regular width the whole way up and down......obviously.

In footy, the curvature of the boundary creates it own set of distinct options depending where you are and under what circumstances.

And with ALL games - - 'space', the wonderful intangible concept of 'creating space' and players who seem to have more time than the others are common across all games. What is clear in Aust footy is the size of the field dictates where space is easiest to find!!

 

[Hawkers]

Nice links, but that's just in the Premier League. Barkly made the assertion that; 'Nearly half of all soccer goals are from set pieces, own goals or long range speculative shots.'

Are you really going to argue that?

Is soccer so different from league to league that the figures would be wildly different?
I wouldn't have thought so

 

[Munro_Mick]

Nice links, but that's just in the Premier League. Barkly made the assertion that; 'Nearly half of all soccer goals are from set pieces, own goals or long range speculative shots.'

re set pieces, what get's me about the Rugby codes and soccer is things like, well, the golden boot for example. All goals are counted, so, MVFC over the years, Danny Allsop scoring solely from the field and general play, was competing with Kevin Muscat who took (and converted) every penalty kick.

How was that fair? It's like comparing general cricket fielders with wicket keepers in the same list. Keeper wins. They shouldn't be competing for the same award.

It's like the pretty useless NRL club based stats of top goal scorer.......there's only one guy listed, the designated kicker. Try scorers is a different story, but, the goal kicker??

 

[Barkly St End]

Nice links, but that's just in the Premier League. Barkly made the assertion that; 'Nearly half of all soccer goals are from set pieces, own goals or long range speculative shots.'

In 2006, Italy scored 58% of its goals from set pieces:
http://www.fifa.com/confederationscup/statistics/news/newsid=1070927.html

Note, all these stats are just set pieces, but equally, own goals and long range shots fall in a similar category of producing goals that are relatively disconnected from tactical team play.

It's a well known stat (going back 60 years now) that the majority of goals, right across all comps, come from passages of play involving 3 or less passes.

 

[mojito]

Are you really going to argue that?

Is soccer so different from league to league that the figures would be wildly different?
I wouldn't have thought so

Yes, I will argue that point. Your error is that you assume that every team plays the same style of soccer, leading to the same outcomes, more or less.

In reality though, there are teams/leagues that are renowned for defensive play and there are those renowned for speed and technique, all of which would yield different stats on the proportion of goals scored by head, long range etc etc.

 

[Matt72]

Hey Craig, if there were 30 goals in every soccer game you wouldn't even get half the roar you get from that only goal you get in a match and you wouldn't get 1/4 of those drunken chants either. Oh and if Europe and Asia had the populations of Australia it wouldn't be be the called the world game. Europe and Asia are like big countries and soccer was their first sport which they grew up with just like we have grown up with footy.

LMAO
This takes the cake as the most pathetic, incorrect, misinformed post I have ever read anywhere.
$50 for the person who can find all the errors. Be warned you might need to set aside an hour or two.

 

[Hawkers]

Yes, I will argue that point. Your error is that you assume that every team plays the same style of soccer, leading to the same outcomes, more or less.

In reality though, there are teams/leagues that are renowned for defensive play and there are those renowned for speed and technique, all of which would yield different stats on the proportion of goals scored by head, long range etc etc.

See BSE's post above yours. I also found this
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...wBQ#v=onepage&q=goals from dead balls&f=false

It won't let me copy and paste but I'll write it up below

Research from the final rounds of the 1990 and 1994 World Cups as well as the 1996 European Championships in England show that goals as a result of dead-ball situations, free kicks and corner kicks in particular, make up a large percentage of the total scoring

Event---------Goals-------Dead-ball------------Free Kick--------Corner Kick
90 WC--------115---------32%-----------------12%----------------------
94 WC--------141---------25%------------------8%----------------------
1996 Euro-----64----------27%------------------6%--------------17%

As you can see these results are from international events involving many teams with many different styles of play yet in the 1996 Euro Champs 50% of goals were from a dead-ball, free kick or corner kick.
It would only be higher if it took into account own goals and speculative shots

 

[dididi]

of the worlds great sporting events, you'd wanna attend a Carl v Coll or Coll v Ess (Anzac day) game if you're a real sports tourist.

Yes, indeed tourists flock from all corners of the globe to see these wondrous events. You easily get more tourists to see Carlton play Collingwood than the EPL, Euros, Champions League and World Cup.

Every little kid in Asia dreams of seeing Collingwood play one day

 

[dididi]

Soccer isn't head and shoulders above Aussie Rules.

That's just BS.

I couldn't agree more - this is why soccer is only popular in a few states of Australia and why AFL is easily the No. 1 sport worldwide

 

[Echo Bravo]

You really don't have anything to say other than "soccer is popular in the most countries so it must be better" do you dididi?

 

[dididi]

if Europe and Asia had the populations of Australia it wouldn't be be the called the world game.

if a motorbike had pedals instead of a motor you would call it a bicycle

mate, you are an intellectual behemoth

PS you forgot Africa and Sth America

 

[dididi]

You really don't have anything to say other than "soccer is popular in the most countries so it must be better" do you dididi?

and you guys don't have anything other to say than "because victorians and south australians prefer ALF it must be the best sport in the world"

if a global audience was reading this thread the vast majority would consider you guys as the lunatics

 

[Barkly St End]

and you guys don't have anything other to say than "because victorians and south australians prefer ALF it must be the best sport in the world"

if a global audience was reading this thread the vast majority would consider you guys as the lunatics

Am I going to care that much what the impoverished, uneducated masses of the world think?

I don't suffer from cultural cringe.

I say to them: come test yourselves in a manly game, put your name in the draft, you can earn yourself a decent living as a professional footballer, but only if you have what it takes.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

and you guys don't have anything other to say than "because victorians and south australians prefer ALF it must be the best sport in the world"

if a global audience was reading this thread the vast majority would consider you guys as the lunatics

As games they are both enjoyable to watch.

But it's not just about the game, it's about the whole package.

Part of that package is terrible crowd/fan behaviour, plenty of plastic fans, corruption at the highest level to name a few things.

As a complete package the AFL is a better product.

 

[J_Moore]

and you guys don't have anything other to say than "because victorians and south australians prefer ALF it must be the best sport in the world"

if a global audience was reading this thread the vast majority would consider you guys as the lunatics

How about "Regardless of popularity, I think Australian rules is a more exciting, enjoyable game to watch than soccer"?

 

[rooboy]

and you guys don't have anything other to say than "because victorians and south australians prefer ALF it must be the best sport in the world"

if a global audience was reading this thread the vast majority would consider you guys as the lunatics

That global audience, would it include the USA, India, China, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Ireland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean nations, Canada, Sri Lanka, Phillipines?

Because those countries really don't give a f@ck about soccer. And there are a few people in those countries.

But the people of Qatar would certainly be shocked by our love of Aussie rules.

 

[Barkly St End]

Indeed, if Fos has his way, he would want Australians to follow the lead of Qatar, being a shining light of what it means to be a soccer nation:

1. ditch our liberal democracy
2. make all women second class citizens
3. deny migrant workers the opportunity to become citizens of the country
4. have all political and business decisions based on a foundation of corruption
5. have a domestic soccer league where crowds are counted in the hundreds (at least the A-League can boast better than that, just)

 

[Normy132]

Can't believe people are criticising soccer because a lot of goals are scored from set pieces, moments of madness and own goals.

I love a goal from a set piece. I love that the guy taking the kick can find a teammate's head in amongst a chaotic scene of bodies or pinpoint a kick using curl into a portion of the net out of the reach of a goalkeeper and not hitting the group of half a dozen guys standing right in front of him.

I love that a soccer player can outsmart his marker to the point where he gains enough clear space to be able to get his head or foot to the ball then generate enough power and accuracy to be able to beat the goalkeeper and anybody standing on the posts as cover.

I love that a game can be decided in a moment of utter disbelief. Whether that be moments like the one Rooney produced in the Manchester derby or the equaliser Aloisi scored againt the Victory. It was scrappy, it was messy, but wow did it mean a lot that they got that ball across the line.

In fact, this video will basically summarise why any soccer fan loves soccer...

[youtube]Stxr8NqpvKo[/youtube]

And if that doesn't get AFL fans off soccer fans' back nothing will.