Mega Thread Delist/Trade/Draft Super-mega-ultrathread

[Spartan]

Trying to trade players, especially senior players, who are happy and have expressed no desire to leave is fraught with danger given that if the trade you want falls over you will lose them for less as well as the message it sends to the rest of the team.

We can't expect players to be 'loyal' to the club of we don't do the same.

 

[Agent93]

Lets be honest, most of our team looks dead slow these days. Lecca is a marking forward but also kicks goals in general play and from stoppages. IMO he can definately co-exist with Kennedy and Darling, however agree that we need quality/quantity of ball into our forward line for the set up to be really effective.

Ball speed, not foot speed, is the issue. It catches defenders out, and Sydney, Geelong, and Hawthorn are all great teams at moving the ball quickly.

It's how we knocked off Adelaide in the fourth quarter, but the rest of the time we kick it to Cox, who marks, stops, looks, hesitates, looks again, and then kicks it long to a contest or short to another player who has little choice but to do the same. I used to get furious when Staker did this, but our entire team moving the ball forward does it now. This means it's a coached behaviour, that our players are not told to take the game on.

Plus you don't shop around long serving quality players who haven't expressed a desire to leave.

A giant bugbear of mine. Players want to be able to go where they want when out of contract, but when in contract they also want to dictate the terms of their movement. That and the player payments floor is why clubs can take a long long time to turn from bad to good.

On LeCras, wouldn't trade him. In fact, I'd play him at FF with the resting ruck and let JD and JK move up the ground and out-run or out-mark their opponents. Let Frenchy be the finisher, and let other teams struggle to find an in-form Harry O'Brien or Dustin Fletcher to stop him.

 

[twce13]

And they wouldn't get him.
But 2 quality players they might go for.

I think there are a lot of other teams better equipped to get that number 1 pick. As above it is dangerous territory to shop around long loyal service players.

What we need in my opinion, is one more pick in the first two rounds. I would be eyeing GWS's pick 20 (10 also but I don't think we have the disposable quality to get this). The first 25-20 players in this year's draft look like they could go along way to solving some of our issues in the longer term. Picks 6, 20 and 25 would be very good.

 

[pantskyle]

Get pick 1
Draft Boyd
Turn Darling into a mid
.....
Profit?

Getting Boyd fills no need for us.

 

[Agent93]

I think there are a lot of other teams better equipped to get that number 1 pick. As above it is dangerous territory to shop around long loyal service players.

I think the Saints pick 3 + McEvoy is the best shot. If I'm a Saints guy hopefully I realise that the club won't win a premiership in the next 3 years, and during that time Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, and Riewoldt (who are arguably the team's best 4 players) should retire. If the club accepts that it needs a rebuild, and decides (as most have) that Tom Boyd will be an elite talent then giving up a mid-level ruckman shouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

[bodazoka]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-07-19/giants-wavering-on-megatrade

So Sheedy and GWS may be open to trading pick number 1.

If we finish 10th or 11th should we be seriously looking at trading a couple players for it and get picks in the first 6?

Who would you trade?

Maybe Lecras, Priddis, Hurn? Given that you have to trade quality to get the number 1 pick what are your thoughts?

Edit: We may get that big midfielder we need or even 2 of them.

LeCras and Waters would be the only blokes that have value who you would want to trade. Drive off the HB line is very important and Hurn is the best in the league at it, I would consider his importance to be on par with an A grade midfielder. Everyone else on our list is either not worth trading (ie no point trading a Shuey/Gaff for a pick to net a midfielder) or all ready A grade and so no point in trading (Darling, Kennedy) or... have zero currency (Priddis)

 

[bodazoka]

I think the Saints pick 3 + McEvoy is the best shot. If I'm a Saints guy hopefully I realise that the club won't win a premiership in the next 3 years, and during that time Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna, and Riewoldt (who are arguably the team's best 4 players) should retire. If the club accepts that it needs a rebuild, and decides (as most have) that Tom Boyd will be an elite talent then giving up a mid-level ruckman shouldn't be too much of an issue.

You would also seriously consider letting one of DalSanto or Montagna go also IMO. We may of had a chance to do something similar with Kerr a few years ago and in hindsight it may of been the correct decision.

Some of the supports do seem to think that McEvoy is the next Dean Cox though....

 

[Agent93]

You would also seriously consider letting one of DalSanto or Montagna go also IMO. We may of had a chance to do something similar with Kerr a few years ago and in hindsight it may of been the correct decision.

Some of the supports do seem to think that McEvoy is the next Dean Cox though....

... along with Kreuzer, Minson, Goldstein and every other modern ruckman. Looking around you might imagine Dawson Simpson, Trent Nicholls or Daniel Gorringe might come onto the market in coming years and would be worth a look for a rebuilding side.

Besides Collingwood and Geelong, very few teams seem to be forward thinking and flexible during trade week.

It should be a simple process for a strong team:
1. What have we got more than one of? (eg. Wellingham, Mumford, Maric)
2. Do they have value to another team? (Yes.)
3. What can we ask for that meets our needs? (We have strong lists, therefore a first round pick)

For a rebuilding team the process is nearly the same, except they have a certain strangle put on them by the AFLPA, making it better to keep certain veterans around to take up player payments on short contracts; which appeases the one-club-I-don't-want-to-leave-I-have-a-contract BS.

 

[Spider Klein]

LeCras and Waters would be the only blokes that have value who you would want to trade. Drive off the HB line is very important and Hurn is the best in the league at it, I would consider his importance to be on par with an A grade midfielder. Everyone else on our list is either not worth trading (ie no point trading a Shuey/Gaff for a pick to net a midfielder) or all ready A grade and so no point in trading (Darling, Kennedy) or... have zero currency (Priddis)

Agree with most of what you said, However I would see a point in trading a good Outside mid if we could get a quality extractor type mid.

I see Gaff, Shuey, Masten and Wellingham all having best qualities as first recievers and not the primary ball winner. These guys should have currency and getting a quality extractor mid for one of these guys would be beneficial imo

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Besides Collingwood and Geelong, very few teams seem to be forward thinking and flexible during trade week.

It should be a simple process for a strong team:
1. What have we got more than one of? (eg. Wellingham, Mumford, Maric)
2. Do they have value to another team? (Yes.)
3. What can we ask for that meets our needs? (We have strong lists, therefore a first round pick)

In all three cases it was the player seeking to move home or for more playing time, rather than the club identifying a glut and shopping the player.

Some clubs might be more pragmatic and flexible when players ask for trades, but there's not too many cases of clubs shopping their own players around. At least not too many that end well (see e.g. Hamish McIntosh during Laidley's time, Brisbane offering up Bradshaw and Rischitelli)

 

[Spooky17]

In all three cases it was the player seeking to move home or for more playing time, rather than the club identifying a glut and shopping the player.

Some clubs might be more pragmatic and flexible when players ask for trades, but there's not too many cases of clubs shopping their own players around. At least not too many that end well (see e.g. Hamish McIntosh during Laidley's time, Brisbane offering up Bradshaw and Rischitelli)

Oh crazy vossy, will your craziness never end?

 

[Jimmy_the_Gent]

I wonder what Buckley will do to match crazy Vossy and cheating Hirdy.

 

[kane249]

I wonder what Buckley will do to match crazy Vossy and cheating Hirdy.

Kick Mick out of his job and then take Collingwood backwards?

 

[Agent93]

In all three cases it was the player seeking to move home or for more playing time, rather than the club identifying a glut and shopping the player.

Apart from Wellingham (hindsight a bad example, except the Pies knew they had ample players to cover his spot - see Elliot, Thomas, Kennedy), in each case the previous club could have opted to trade another player to accomplish the same goal (eg. Sidebottom, West/Blake/Simpson, Griffin/Not getting Jacobs).

Some clubs might be more pragmatic and flexible when players ask for trades, but there's not too many cases of clubs shopping their own players around.

PA issues again. Which is why we shouldn't get any hopes up of being able to trade for a player that doesn't disagree with their current club, which generally happens for 4 reasons:
1. Club is shit, player unhappy (Moloney)
2. Player is shit, club unhappy (Staker)
3. Too much competition for players position at club (Mumford)
And the most utter BS reason in a professional sporting competition:
4. Go home factor (Judd)



I think Bradshaw and Rischitelli vastly over-reacted to their situation, and they fit into group 1 given the Lions decline after their premierships.

 

[Spartan]

Getting Boyd fills no need for us.

It was a tongue in cheek response to a previous post and agree that he doesn't fill a need.

That being said if we could somehow get pick 1 with minimal hurt then I'd definitely do it and get Boyd. He is being billed as a once in a generation talent.. if this guy is the next Wayne Carey it would be great to see him in blue and gold.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

You forgot
5. Another club throws a huge amount of money at player (Goddard, Clark)

We've benefitted from the go-home factor as much as anyone else - Chick, Stenglein, Wellingham and Cripps.

 

[Spartan]

Ball speed, not foot speed, is the issue.
A giant bugbear of mine.

Tbh both ball speed and foot speed are issues. We lack genuine pace and line breaking ability across the field and especially through the midfield. Thats why I'm a huge fan of recruiting Yarran (on the cheap).

As for the bugbear, unfortunately thats the nature of the beast. If you piss a player off by shopping him and don't get what you want you will likely lose him for less. You want to develop a culture where the players believe in the club so that factors into their decision making when its time for them to go or stay. On one hand (I'm generalising here) we want to push players into a trade that see us 'benefit' yet we will btich and moan when a required player chooses to leave believing they should be loyal to the club.

 

[tesseract]

I see Gaff, Shuey, Masten and Wellingham all having best qualities as first recievers and not the primary ball winner.

I'd take Wellingham off that list. He's bog ordinary by foot.

If Wellingham is being played as an on-baller, I want to see him used as a grunt or as a tagger/run-with player. He doesn't have the foot skills to be the guy WC would want to have kicking the ball into the F50.

 

[Definitely Maybe]

I'd take Wellingham off that list. He's bog ordinary by foot.

If Wellingham is being played as an on-baller, I want to see him used as a grunt or as a tagger/run-with player. He doesn't have the foot skills to be the guy WC would want to have kicking the ball into the F50.

Not sure about this. He has been a bit iffy by foot in his games for us, but I'd put that down to match fitness and games more than anything. I'd want to see more of Wellingham before making a call on his foot skills.

 

[tesseract]

Not sure about this. He has been a bit iffy by foot in his games for us, but I'd put that down to match fitness and games more than anything. I'd want to see more of Wellingham before making a call on his foot skills.

I don't put ordinary foot skills down to lack of match fitness and games, for Wellingham's foot skills were the same during his time at Collingwood. He's been around the game long enough to make a call on this issue. I won't be making excuses for Wellingham's ordinary foot skills.

 

[Chris_6678]

I thought he was excellent by foot on the weekend he had 2 goals 1 and had 4 goals assist and was good to see a player other than Gaff being able to do it. Yeah he did do that silly kick of the side of his boot but he hasnt exactly been 100% fit all year. If we can get Shuey, Gaff, Masten and Wellingham all fit and playing at once JK , Darling, Lecra and Hill would benefit from it hugely.

 

[Agent93]

If you piss a player off by shopping him and don't get what you want you will likely lose him for less.

Yet a player under contract can shop himself, let the club be low-balled and then be pissed off with the result.

Or looking at it another way, a club can target a specific under contract player knowing full well the final say in the trade rests with that player. There's no tampering rules so the player just needs to be convinced, and you end up with the same result: pissed off player, club in a bind.

We lack genuine pace and line breaking ability across the field and especially through the midfield.

I disagree. I think we've got a lot of quick players - Gaff, Shuey, Scooter, Naitanui, Darling. Agility and the belief to take the player/game on are issues though, and Shuey is generally the only player who does this.
Which presumably can be solved by coaching (see: Bomber Thompson at Geelong) or by grabbing players who do this already (Jetta at Sydney).

With the current team the problem is, if you grab a Yarran, by the time Cox/Embley/Priddis et al have gone back to his mark and looked around a bit, Yarran has either run further away than Cox/Embley/Priddis et al can kick, or the defense has caught up and cover him.

Of course, moving the ball quickly is useless if we don't do it accurately to the correct targets - which is another problem we've had this year (see: Waters' cross vs Essendon). I don't think a Yarran will solve that.

 

[bodazoka]

Agree with most of what you said, However I would see a point in trading a good Outside mid if we could get a quality extractor type mid.

I see Gaff, Shuey, Masten and Wellingham all having best qualities as first recievers and not the primary ball winner. These guys should have currency and getting a quality extractor mid for one of these guys would be beneficial imo

Could be a possibility..

However if that was to happen I would prefer to trade for one of there established midfielders who you know is exactly what you need. Rather than a draft pick, even if it was pick #1 TBH.

If Gaff wanted to be closer to home and Swallow or Bennell got home sick you'd do that for instance...

 

[Euro Star]

It was a tongue in cheek response to a previous post and agree that he doesn't fill a need.

That being said if we could somehow get pick 1 with minimal hurt then I'd definitely do it and get Boyd. He is being billed as a once in a generation talent.. if this guy is the next Wayne Carey it would be great to see him in blue and gold.

Could be a Wayne Carey, could be a Tom Hawkins, could be a Paul Johson. There is no certainty when it comes to the draft, I think this is a typical media stunt from Kevin and GWS.

The saying goes "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" GWS seem to think it is the other way around.

2010 draft had David Swallow way out in front at pick 1. IMO, Bennell and Prestia are both ahead of him at this point.

 

[Agent93]

If Gaff wanted to be closer to home and Swallow or Bennell got home sick you'd do that for instance...

I doubt we'd get Gaff to GC if he had go-home disease. That said, even if it was done with a little 3-way action getting Bennell is basically replacing him with a similar outsidey mid. Although Swallow is a little different, it doesn't solve the thought of trading one of our outside mids for an inside.