Do You Believe in Allah?

[Frodo]

Probably been done before, but may as well do a new one.

Yes I do, but I don't believe Mohammud was beamed from Medina to a launching rock in Israel and then up to Allah for a chat!!!

 

[Magnum]

I've always found religion to be a strange beast. At a personal level, it provides hope to people who wouldn't have had it otherwise, as well as some moral guidelines which could be argued benefit the world.

At a group level however, it breeds hate and fundamentalism, causes wars and justifies cruelty and death. I'm undecided as to whether religion is overall positive or negative for humanity.

Good Post. Overall, religion has given meaning to a lot of peoples lives, but caused the deaths of many many people. Personally I think overall, religion is in the red, but that's just me.

 

[Lestat]

You seem to think that people who dont believe in a God (until he/she is proved) MUST believe that the universe appeared out of nothing. I dont know how they universe was created and neither does anyone on earth (disregarding the people who think 'God' created it). I guess thats why science says it is a "theory".

Yet science does not know how the universe was created, nor does any religous person, despite what some may say.

What we do know is that if the universe was created (which we (religous people) believe it was), then it must of been created by someone? Every creation has a creator does it not. Now whether you believe that creator to be God/ or some higher being, in essence it really is the same thing. God is the creator. To not believe in a creator, is to believe that the universe was not created, it just appeared.

My thoughts are that anyone who can believe in something totally unverifiable, like God for instance, might as well believe in Santa as one is no more believable than the other.

But its not unverifiable, is it. Definately not 'totally unverifiable'. My belief is based on many things, however, I have just touched on one here. To me, the existance of the universe and life as we know, is evidence that there IS A God.

If there isn't a God, then there is no Creator. If there is no creator, then the universe was not created, it appeared out of nothing, out of chance.

If I am willing to believe and accept that the whole universe just appeared out of nothing, then why not a simple apple?

 

[Frodo]

Agreed, now science and religon both agree that 3) is highly unlikely. So its either 1) or 2).



Not neccesarily.

We who believe in God believe that the laws of physics do not apply to Him. Religon quite clearly states that God has always been.

There is a verse in the Quran where it states that Allah 'Was not begot nor has he begotten'. Christianity and Judism have similar concept as do all religons that have the concept of a higher being.

Now of course, this can be debated endlessely, however, what you guys are saying is that there IS NO GOD. Not that there is a God, and he was 'created'.

So, taking your first post above, if we are to believe that there is NO GOD, therefore, there is no creator, therefore the universe was not created, its just became.

Now my question is, if you are to believe that the universe, with all its complexities and wonderments can just become, appear from nothing, then why do you find it so hard to believe that a simple apple can do likewise.

I agree with that.

The principle of the unmoving mover being God has to hold.

In scenario 2, it just appeared, there can be no credibility because the question still begs 'where and what did it appear from?'

 

[skipper kelly]

are we there yet

 

[Magnum]

you guys are saying is that there IS NO GOD. Not that there is a God, and he was 'created'.

I don't. I'm an agnostic. Until there is evidence for or against, I'll suspend judgement.

At this stage scientific theories best fit my beliefs as they have provided vastly more evidence and sound logic.

But as I said, I refrain from saying that God doesn't exist, because I dont know.

 

[Lestat]

I've always found religion to be a strange beast. At a personal level, it provides hope to people who wouldn't have had it otherwise, as well as some moral guidelines which could be argued benefit the world.

At a group level however, it breeds hate and fundamentalism, causes wars and justifies cruelty and death. I'm undecided as to whether religion is overall positive or negative for humanity.

Perhaps the fault is with people, and not religon.

There are many other reasons and excuses that humans have used to kill each other, that have nothing to do with religon.

ffs, in England people have been killed over which soccer club they follow.

 

[Frodo]

Perhaps the fault is with people, and not religon.

There are many other reasons and excuses that humans have used to kill each other, that have nothing to do with religon.

ffs, in England people have been killed over which soccer club they follow.

You are mixing up God and religion.

God is

Religion is from man, not God.

 

[rick James]

And if you get the chance, refute the points I made with koranic references.

You know generally the person making the claims has to come up with references...

As I've said previously, Perth = backwards

 

[MightyFighting]

We who believe in God believe that the laws of physics do not apply to Him.

This isn't physics. It is logic. Even if the laws of physics can be variable, logic cannot.

If something exists it must either have come into existence, or have already existed. If it came into existence, it may or may not have been due to the actions of something else.

Religon quite clearly states that God has always been.

There is a verse in the Quran where it states that Allah 'Was not begot nor has he begotten'. Christianity and Judism have similar concept as do all religons that have the concept of a higher being.

That's not an argument.

Now of course, this can be debated endlessely

No it can't. You're already out of proper arguments.

however, what you guys are saying is that there IS NO GOD. Not that there is a God, and he was 'created'.

No, I'm saying that if this God fellow does exist, then certain things would have to be true about him. It's similar to the mathematical concept of proof by contradiction.

Now my question is, if you are to believe that the universe, with all its complexities and wonderments can just become, appear from nothing, then why do you find it so hard to believe that a simple apple can do likewise.

Logic alone cannot discount the possibility of spontaneous apple appearances. However, every relevant piece of experimental evidence supports the idea that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

And since apples are made of matter which is made of energy, there can therefore be no free apples for le snack. (Unless the 1st law of themodynamics turns out to be not always true, which is possible, but very unlikely.)

 

[Lestat]

I don't. I'm an agnostic. Until there is evidence for or against, I'll suspend judgement.

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't an agnostic believe in the existance of a God or higher being?

A

t this stage scientific theories best fit my beliefs as they have provided vastly more evidence and sound logic.

But thats my point. At this point there are no scientific theories that tackle this issue. Take the big bang theory for example (one that I believe)...believe it or not, the big bang theory is actually described in the Quran. We believe that this is 'how' God created the universe. Ironically, most athiests also believe in the big bang theory. Difference being they obviously do not believe that 'God' had a hand in this. Now there are no scientific theories on how or why the big bang occurred, are there?

But as I said, I refrain from saying that God doesn't exist, because I dont know.

Good answer, and one I can accept. However...

You did say that there is more chance that Santa claus exists then God. Now since we know that Santa claus does not exist, its pretty clear what your implying.

 

[rick James]

I've always found religion to be a strange beast. At a personal level, it provides hope to people who wouldn't have had it otherwise, as well as some moral guidelines which could be argued benefit the world.

At a group level however, it breeds hate and fundamentalism, causes wars and justifies cruelty and death. I'm undecided as to whether religion is overall positive or negative for humanity.

Yep, because you have nothing to compare it against - it's been around since as far back as anyone can tell, makes you wonder if people would just kill in the name of something else.... money, perhaps? (oh, wait.... )

 

[Magnum]

To me, the existance of the universe and life as we know, is evidence that there IS A God.

If there isn't a God, then there is no Creator. If there is no creator, then the universe was not created, it appeared out of nothing, out of chance.

If I am willing to believe and accept that the whole universe just appeared out of nothing, then why not a simple apple?

Why must there be a god if the universe was created? They are mutually exclusive. Good old Mother Nature could be called a god in that case.

I just dont understand why you would believe in a certain "god" when "I just dont know" is a far more logical and more reasonable answer?! You are so definate in your beliefs that your God MUST have created the universe. How are you so sure?

 

[Lestat]

Why must there be a god if the universe was created? They are mutually exclusive. Good old Mother Nature could be called a god in that case.

I just dont understand why you would believe in a certain "god" when "I just dont know" is a far more logical and more reasonable answer?! You are so definate in your beliefs that your God MUST have created the universe. How are you so sure?

Read my post again. Not a God, a creator. if the universe was created, then there must be a creator. This is what I said.

Now you can call that creator whatever you like. God, mother nature...whatever, it doesn't change the concept of a higher being that created the universe and everything we know.

It it is this that I worship. Call it God/Allah/mother nature. Whatever you like.


And its not that I believe in a certain God. I believe that there is only one God, and we all worship Him, just with a different name. .

 

[Magnum]

Good answer, and one I can accept. However...

You did say that there is more chance that Santa claus exists then God. Now since we know that Santa claus does not exist, its pretty clear what your implying.

My point was that as a kid, and even recently, I have been received presents on Christmas morning "From Santa". So far in terms of evidence - Santa = 1 God = 0. Now I know there is no santa, I was being somewhat facetious, but until I get some sort of evidence from god, He/she is behind.

To me, both concepts have vast plot holes. Hence my stance. Bear in mind that I hold no authority in saying that you are WRONG, and I dont have comtempt for you or for your beliefs, it's just that I form my opinions from my own logic and reason, and they have huge conflicts with the whole concept of a "God".

And it's not to say that I'm right either.

 

[Magnum]

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't an agnostic believe in the existance of a God or higher being?

Agnostics basically don't disregard the possibility of there being a god. We just dont know so we cannot confirm OR deny.

I personally think its arrogont to say definately that there IS NO GOD just as must as holding a definate view that there IS a god. Really, we just dont know, and we may never know.

As it stands, I'm probably more of a "weak agnostic"

Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

 

[Lestat]

My point was that as a kid, and even recently, I have been received presents on Christmas morning "From Santa". So far in terms of evidence - Santa = 1 God = 0. Now I know there is no santa, I was being somewhat facetious, but until I get some sort of evidence from god, He/she is behind.

But Santa is a lie perpetuated by parents to there children. We know this to be fact.

Ask a jewish and muslim child about Santa claus, for them he does not exist and never existed.

And isn't the fact that there is a universe and the life around us evidence that there is a God (a creator). Perhaps not conclusive, however, it is evidence.

If you don't believe it is, then you don't believe the universe was created, just appeared out of thin air.

To me, both concepts have vast plot holes. Hence my stance. Bear in mind that I hold no authority in saying that you are WRONG, and I dont have comtempt for you or for your beliefs, it's just that I form my opinions from my own logic and reason, and they have huge conflicts with the whole concept of a "God".

And it's not to say that I'm right either.

C'mon mate. You cannot compare the two. No one, besides children, truly believe that Santa claus exists. Even then, children believe because they are lied to by there parents, the human beings that they trust more then anyone else in the world.

Why wouldn't a child believe something that they are told by there parents?

Billions of humans believe God exists, and live there lives accordingly. I'm sure there is a better analogy you can find which will argue your point better.

However, I do know what your saying. I just don't agree.

 

[rick James]

Agnostics basically don't disregard the possibility of there being a god. We just dont know so we cannot confirm OR deny.

I personally think its arrogont to say definately that there IS NO GOD just as must as holding a definate view that there IS a god. Really, we just dont know, and we may never know.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

holding views is arrogant, I agree - but having a beleif is just that, a beleif. the very nature of a belief is that you don't have evidence but you're prepared to go out ona limb and say that something is/isn't there.

And in that regard I believe in god, but I'm not religious.

 

[Lestat]

Agnostics basically don't disregard the possibility of there being a god. We just dont know so we cannot confirm or deny.

Fair enough. But that isn't what you are saying, is it.

I

personally think its arrogont to say definately that there IS NO GOD just as must as holding a definate view that there IS a god. Really, we just dont know, and we may never know.

How is it arragont? How does it affect you that I am certain in my beliefs. Niether is arrogant.

The arrogance comes into it when one group or the other mocks the others beliefs.

It is not arrogant if you don't believe that God exists. What is arrogont is when you mock other people who believe that God exists. Same goes for those who believe in God.

What I read on this boards, is athiests mocking God believers, not the other way around. So who's arrogant?

 

[Magnum]

holding views is arrogant, I agree - but having a beleif is just that, a beleif. the very nature of a belief is that you don't have evidence but you're prepared to go out ona limb and say that something is/isn't there.

And in that regard I believe in god, but I'm not religious.

Exactly.

 

[Scratcher Gillespie]

Perhaps the fault is with people, and not religon.

There are many other reasons and excuses that humans have used to kill each other, that have nothing to do with religon.

ffs, in England people have been killed over which soccer club they follow.

Perhaps. Perhaps above a personal level religion gets corrupted and forced out to the extremes. I have to admit, watching God on my side with Denton, the 2 moderate Christian guys (as well as the Arabic Christian guy) impressed me immensly (I'm not a Christian myself).

There are many other reasons that people get killed, I think at a fundamental level hate is inbred, whether it manifests in racism, sexism, or religious fighting. Religion perhaps just gives people an excuse to manipulate other people into fighting their wars.

 

[Lestat]

If holding a view is arrogant, then every human being on the planet, heck every human being that has ever lived, is arrogant, after all, we all hold views.

 

[Magnum]

Fair enough. But that isn't what you are saying, is it.

It is (well its what I've been trying to!)

I

How is it arragont? How does it affect you that I am certain in my beliefs. Niether is arrogant.

The arrogance comes into it when one group or the other mocks the others beliefs.

It is not arrogant if you don't believe that God exists. What is arrogont is when you mock other people who believe that God exists. Same goes for those who believe in God.

What I read on this boards, is athiests mocking God believers, not the other way around. So who's arrogant?

I do think Atheists are arrogant.

 

[otaku]

But I don't take drugs.

People lie all the time.

So do you have a more likely explanation for the universe just 'appearing'?

Out of curiousity, if I was a famous scientist, then would you believe me?

Would I believe you? Not unless you had discounted all the more rational explanations.

Why must I be on drugs for seeing an apple appear out of thin air, yet the whole universe just appearing is completely acceptable.

It is a simpler answer. Why have a complex answer like god when a simpler explanation fits the bill?

 

[Magnum]

However, I do know what your saying. I just don't agree.

Thats fine, as I said, the Santa vs God was a facetious remark trying in some way convey what *I* think. It made no bones about your religion or your beliefs, and if you have taken offense to it, I apologise but it wasn't my intent. If you get the jist (or "vibe") of what I'm saying though, I'll be happy, as I'm not necessarily the best in conveying my thoughts!