Do You Believe in Allah?

[Lestat]

People lie all the time.

Including scientists?

Would I believe you? Not unless you had discounted all the more rational explanations.

Is this what science has done? And how and why have you discounted the explanation of a creator? What have you based your belief on?

It is a simpler answer. Why have a complex answer like god when a simpler explanation fits the bill?

And what is that simpler explanation? That the universe just appeared out of thin air?

So why not the apple?

 

[skilts]

holding views is arrogant, I agree - but having a beleif is just that, a beleif. the very nature of a belief is that you don't have evidence but you're prepared to go out ona limb and say that something is/isn't there.

And in that regard I believe in god, but I'm not religious.

The very next question must surely be, "Why do people attribute such importance to their beliefs?" They acknowledge they are just that, beliefs, but seem to think they are of such importance that they deserve to be respected by other people. Why should people be repected for making a jump-of-faith to embrace such unsustainable ideas? If they were sustainable they wouldn't be categorised as beliefs. Embracing such beliefs could just as easily be interpreted as an action deserving of pity, not understanding or tolerance.

 

[Lestat]

Thats fine, as I said, the Santa vs God was a facetious remark trying in some way convey what *I* think. It made no bones about your religion or your beliefs, and if you have taken offense to it, I apologise but it wasn't my intent. If you get the jist (or "vibe") of what I'm saying though, I'll be happy, as I'm not necessarily the best in conveying my thoughts!

No offence taken mate....we're just discussing a very interesting topic.

 

[skipper kelly]

The very next question must surely be, "Why do people attribute such importance to their beliefs?" They acknowledge they are just that, beliefs, but seem to think they are of such importance that they deserve to be respected by other people. Why should people be repected for making a jump-of-faith to embrace such unsustainable ideas? If they were sustainable they wouldn't be categorised as beliefs. Embracing such beliefs could just as easily be interpreted as an action deserving of pity, not understanding or tolerance.

what is respect and why is it important?

 

[Lestat]

The very next question must surely be, "Why do people attribute such importance to their beliefs?" They acknowledge they are just that, beliefs, but seem to think they are of such importance that they deserve to be respected by other people. Why should people be repected for making a jump-of-faith to embrace such unsustainable ideas? If they were sustainable they wouldn't be categorised as beliefs. Embracing such beliefs could just as easily be interpreted as an action deserving of pity, not understanding or tolerance.

Islam is not just a belief, it is a way to live your life.

If you believe that God exists, then it is logical that you believe that God all powerful, the creator.

Then religon comes into it. Muslims not only believe that there is a God, we also believe that the Quran is the word of God. Hence we live our lives according to what we believe to be the teachings and message from God.

I expect that the same applies to all religons.

 

[Magnum]

No offence taken mate....we're just discussing a very interesting topic.

It is an intersting topic, it has had good discussion!

 

[Citizen Erased]

I Believe...."I can fly,I believe i can touch the sky"..."Spread your Wings and fly away"......................

 

[otaku]

Including scientists?

And priests, and "prophets".

Is this what science has done? And how and why have you discounted the explanation of a creator? What have you based your belief on?

The answers fit with what knowledge we have. We have no knowledge of a god. We have people who claim to have spoken with a god, but see my first line in this post.

And what is that simpler explanation? That the universe just appeared out of thin air?

So why not the apple?

The simpler explanation was that you were on drugs.

Why is the universe just appearing simpler than the god theory?

because with the god theory you have added another level of explanation. "God created the universe" - so that question is answered - next is "what created god" - if nothing did, where did he come from? If something did, what was it?

 

[rick James]

The very next question must surely be, "Why do people attribute such importance to their beliefs?" They acknowledge they are just that, beliefs, but seem to think they are of such importance that they deserve to be respected by other people. Why should people be repected for making a jump-of-faith to embrace such unsustainable ideas? If they were sustainable they wouldn't be categorised as beliefs. Embracing such beliefs could just as easily be interpreted as an action deserving of pity, not understanding or tolerance.

A belief is a very personal thing, even if millions of other people share it.

Why do people value love? Or family? Why do Howard's aspirationals value cash and middle classs welfare?

I think that treating it as a belief is fine, and you may consider it almost as "fact" toy uorself, but acting on it as a "fact" is where things become very dangerous. Hence, why I'm not religious.

 

[Lestat]

And priests, and "prophets".

Yet the prophets you speak of were the best of people, respected and honoured those around them BEFORE THEY WERE PROPHETS.

The Prophet Muhummed only started preaching when he was 40 y.o. It was at that age that he first recieved the relevation. Before that he was very respected amongst the community, and was known as al-amin (the honest one). He never told a lie, he never hurt people, he treated all with respect.

What do you know of the prophet, of his life, and his teachings. Nothing, yet here you are saying he is a liar.

Same goes for all the prophets. Whether you believe or disbelieve in God, you cannot deny the fact that they were all great people, respected and seen as honest, BEFORE they were prophets.

Jesus only started preaching when he was 33, yet was known to be of good character and honest before hand. Same goes for Moses.

Yet here you are, stating that they are liars, based on nothing but ignorance and hatred of what you don't understand.

The answers fit with what knowledge we have. We have no knowledge of a god. We have people who claim to have spoken with a god, but see my first line in this post.

But you have no knowledge of the creation of the universe. You base your knowledge on what some scientist may or may not have said, and putting your trust in his opinion.

There is plenty that you, personally have no knowledge of, yet you have no problem believing.

No different then those who you are so critical of, ironically.

The simpler explanation was that you were on drugs.

So I was on drugs because I believed that an apple appeared out of nothing, yet you, you believes that the universe appeared out of nothing, is somewhat enlightened?

Compare the complexities of an apple, to that of the universe, and to you, it is more likely that it is the universe which appeared from nothing, and not the apple which I ate.

Perhaps it is you thats on drugs?

Why is the universe just appearing simpler than the god theory?

If the universe can just appear, then why not an apple? Oh, right, If we are to believe that an apple just appeared from nothing, then I must be on drugs right.

But hey, the whole universe appearing from nothing....hey, that must be true, cause, there is no evidence of God, so hey, some scientist believed it, so thats what I'll believe.

It seems that scientists are your 'prophets', yet you don't know it.

because with the god theory you have added another level of explanation. "God created the universe" - so that question is answered - next is "what created god" - if nothing did, where did he come from? If something did, what was it?

Not at all. I have already answered that. Religon believes that since God created the universe, he is larger then the creation. He exists outside of the universe, hence, He is not bound by the laws of our universe.

He has always been, and will always be. Now you might not accept that answer, but it is an explanation.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I believe that god may exist, but I dont believe in fictional propaganda like the bible, the koran, the torah, the bhagavad-vita etc

 

[fabulousphil]

sure he was and Mick Gayfer was the greatest fb ever seen.

Who are these scholars?

Try BP .....and not allowed to kick.... Greg Ritchie is a well known and respected scholar..........mahatma Coat.

 

[otaku]

Yet the prophets you speak of were the best of people, respected and honoured those around them BEFORE THEY WERE PROPHETS.

So?

The Prophet Muhummed only started preaching when he was 40 y.o. It was at that age that he first recieved the relevation. Before that he was very respected amongst the community, and was known as al-amin (the honest one). He never told a lie, he never hurt people, he treated all with respect.

What do you know of the prophet, of his life, and his teachings. Nothing, yet here you are saying he is a liar.

Same goes for all the prophets. Whether you believe or disbelieve in God, you cannot deny the fact that they were all great people, respected and seen as honest, BEFORE they were prophets.

Jesus only started preaching when he was 33, yet was known to be of good character and honest before hand. Same goes for Moses.

Yet here you are, stating that they are liars, based on nothing but ignorance and hatred of what you don't understand.

See, this is why I dont seriously argue with religious fundies like yourself. You have no problem implying scientists are liars, yet when someone points out to your that preists and prophets are as well, you get upset.

phooie on you.

But you have no knowledge of the creation of the universe. You base your knowledge on what some scientist may or may not have said, and putting your trust in his opinion.

There is plenty that you, personally have no knowledge of, yet you have no problem believing.

No different then those who you are so critical of, ironically.

What are you blathering about? I have never said that the big bang theory is the be all and end all. Never stated it is "truth". It is an explanation that fits what facts we know. As we learn more, it will either get amended, or discarded.

I dont hold onto the theory as being the only explanation. You, on the other hand, deem that your belief is fact, that your idea is Truth, and are close minded to anything that might suggest it isn't.

So I was on drugs because I believed that an apple appeared out of nothing, yet you, you believes that the universe appeared out of nothing, is somewhat enlightened?

To try to even link the two is laughable, Lestat. One is a personal observation that you claim (without any sort of backup) to be true. Thus it is more likely you are on drugs than it actually happened.

The other is a conclusion drawn from many peoples observations and thoughts, and is constantly being updated as new information is uncovered.

Compare the complexities of an apple, to that of the universe, and to you, it is more likely that it is the universe which appeared from nothing, and not the apple which I ate.

Perhaps it is you thats on drugs?

No, it is you that can't understand an argument

If the universe can just appear, then why not an apple? Oh, right, If we are to believe that an apple just appeared from nothing, then I must be on drugs right.

The fact that you are asking this question simply shows your lack of understanding of the topic.

But hey, the whole universe appearing from nothing....hey, that must be true, cause, there is no evidence of God, so hey, some scientist believed it, so thats what I'll believe.

BZZZZZZZZT false.

It seems that scientists are your 'prophets', yet you don't know it.

Again, false - already explained this.

Not at all. I have already answered that. Religon believes that since God created the universe, he is larger then the creation. He exists outside of the universe, hence, He is not bound by the laws of our universe.

And that leads to the question of "what rules is he bound by?" If none, how does he exist?

If he is "outside" of our universe, then what universe does he exist in?

He has always been, and will always be. Now you might not accept that answer, but it is an explanation.

No, it isnt actually - if he always has been, and always is, then what continua does he exist in? It is yet another level of complexity added to the equation.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

yep i believe in allah, alla and god. theyre all the same.

 

[Fire]

Nah, got no video of it. but hey, it happened.

So your willing to believe that the whole universe just appeared from no where, just materialised when there was nothing, but you cannot accept that one measly apple appeared in front of me.

So You believe that the universe was not created, it just appeared, yet are unwilling to accept that an apple was not created, and just appeared.

Interesting......

The problem with this argument is that both sides can use it.

Where did God (or any name people chose to call him) come from? What was the catalyst? If God is independent of a beginning, then the theory that the universe has always been is just as reputable.

If you believe in God you don't need to try and justify your beliefs to those who make fun, or act patronising towards them. The ironic thing is that atheism requires just as much faith as any other religion. Science can justify atheism as strongly as it can support Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etc. Faith and science will always be separate, and those who would make fun of those who believe in God are only stupid people pretending to be wise.

 

[rick James]

The problem with this argument is that both sides can use it.

Where did God (or any name people chose to call him) come from? What was the catalyst? If God is independent of a beginning, then the theory that the universe has always been is just as reputable.

If you believe in God you don't need to try and justify your beliefs to those who make fun, or act patronising towards them. The ironic thing is that atheism requires just as much faith as any other religion. Science can justify atheism as strongly as it can support Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etc. Faith and science will always be separate, and those who would make fun of those who believe in God are only stupid people pretending to be wise.

Exactly, and it is my belief that this world didn't always exist and isn't an accident - and that something more powerful and more intelligent than I am created it.

Or that we're all a futuristic gameboy and some 4 year old from the future is going to hit reset soon.

 

[Magnum]

Exactly, and it is my belief that this world didn't always exist and isn't an accident - and that something more powerful and more intelligent than I am created it.

I give you....!

Or that we're all a futuristic gameboy and some 4 year old from the future is going to hit reset soon.

hehe... And the ON button creates a new universe

BTW: Good Post Fire.

 

[Contra Mundum]

I give you....!

hehe... And the ON button creates a new universe

BTW: Good Post Fire.

Magnum that picture is a belter can you give me the link?

 

[Lestat]

So?

So you are accusing people of lieing, who were, at the time known for there honesty.

See, this is why I dont seriously argue with religious fundies like yourself. You have no problem implying scientists are liars, yet when someone points out to your that preists and prophets are as well, you get upset.

phooie on you.

It was you that first implied that people lie all the time. I asked you whether that includes scientists?

You see, your arrogance blinds you to the fact that you to place your faith in other people. I am just highlighting the fact that if you are to believe that prophets/priests have lied, then why not the very scientists that you place your beliefs on there words.

What are you blathering about? I have never said that the big bang theory is the be all and end all. Never stated it is "truth". It is an explanation that fits what facts we know. As we learn more, it will either get amended, or discarded.

And what facts do you know? What experiments have YOU conducted which has helped you come to your conclusion?

Or do you base your beliefs on what you have read in books?

I dont hold onto the theory as being the only explanation. You, on the other hand, deem that your belief is fact, that your idea is Truth, and are close minded to anything that might suggest it isn't.

So you accept that there may be a God, and that x religon may be the true teachings of God?

After all, you did just say your not close minded?

To try to even link the two is laughable, Lestat. One is a personal observation that you claim (without any sort of backup) to be true. Thus it is more likely you are on drugs than it actually happened.

The other is a conclusion drawn from many peoples observations and thoughts, and is constantly being updated as new information is uncovered.

What a load of rubbish. You say one thing, yet you completely believe the opposite.

Religon too is a conclusion drawn from many peopes thoughts and observations, yet you don't have a problem discarding the possibilities of truth in there beliefs do you?

No, it is you that can't understand an argument

No I understand your argument alright. When I expose the ludicrousness of your argument, you have no other comeback other then to claim I don't understand.

Fact of the matter is that you, for some reason or another, are willing to accept that the universe just appeared out of thin air, yet your mind is not willing to accept that an apple can do the same.

I can only come to the conclusion that you have been brainwashed to believe what you do. (Sound familiar?)

The fact that you are asking this question simply shows your lack of understanding of the topic.

Translation: Science does not have an explanation for the question you have asked, therefore neither do I. So I will accuse you of not understanding the topic.

BZZZZZZZZT false.

Well then, how bout you explain it to the more simple minded folk such as myself. If there is no God as you have continuously said there isn't, then how was the universe created? Did it just 'appear'? Where did it come from?

Again, false - already explained this.

No you didn't.

And that leads to the question of "what rules is he bound by?" If none, how does he exist?

He is not bound by any rules. He is All-Powerful.

If he is "outside" of our universe, then what universe does he exist in?

He is everywhere. As the Quran states "If you look east you will see God, if you look west you will see God, God is closer to you then your jugular vein."

No, it isnt actually - if he always has been, and always is, then what continua does he exist in? It is yet another level of complexity added to the equation.

As it is a complex topic. At least religon offers an answer. You base your beliefs on 'there is no evidence that God does exists, therefore you must be silly to believe that he does.

This is a question that religon cannot and does not answer. Just as there are many questions that science cannot and does not answer.

 

[Lestat]

The problem with this argument is that both sides can use it.

I agree, that is my point. The very same arguments that athiests use to 'disprove God' can be used against them.

Where did God (or any name people chose to call him) come from? What was the catalyst?

Religon will combat this by stating that though the universe is a creation, as it has a beginning. God is not a creation. Therefore, the universe, as a creation, must have a creator. However, God, the creator, does not, as he was not created. He has no beginning and no end.

In scientific terms...God is infinite. Now the concept of infinity is accepted by all, Hawkins in 'A history of time' introduced the concept of 'infinite time' in quantum physics.

So if athiests and the scientific community can accept the concept of time being infinite...then why can't people accept the concept of God being infinite?

If God is independent of a beginning, then the theory that the universe has always been is just as reputable.

I agree, however, the problem for athiests is that the big bang theory has almost been proven as scientific fact. Its not quite there, but almost is, and is accepted by the majority of the scientific community. Many discoveries have supported the big bang, which proves that the universe has not always been, but had a beginning, and will have an end.

It was mostly athiest scientists who originally were most resistent to the big bang theory, as it blew holes in the theory that the universe was infinite.

The big bang theory has shown that the universe is is not infininate, and that it has a beginning, and an end, and that it is expanding. A theory that supports the existance of a creator, and God.

The Quran says "Wasn't it we that created the heavens and earth as one, and parted it asunder."

If you believe in God you don't need to try and justify your beliefs to those who make fun, or act patronising towards them. The ironic thing is that atheism requires just as much faith as any other religion. Science can justify atheism as strongly as it can support Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etc. Faith and science will always be separate, and those who would make fun of those who believe in God are only stupid people pretending to be wise.

I totally agree with this. People might find this hard to believe, but I am a strong believer in science, and what it has contributed to mankind. It is when people are selective with science that I object too.

We all know that science is not absolute, and it is an ongoing process of learning and discovery. Yet the very people that know and argue this, will use scientific evidence (or the lack of) as an indication that God does not exist. It is this hypocricy that I object too.

Science and religon are seperate area's, one strives to explain 'how', the other strives to explain 'why'.

So to argue that the lack of evidence in one, somehow disproves the other, is a furphy.

 

[Fletchers Girl]

Yet here you are, stating that they are liars, based on nothing but ignorance and hatred of what you don't understand.

I think this sums things up pretty well! I think most people don't understand Islam and why Muslims do or don't do certain things. Therefor judging them quiet harshly and sometimes unfairly.

I am not pretending to know everything myself, but I am trying to learn more about Islam and I must say my opinion has changed dramatically from what I previously thought.

Back on topic though, Yes I do believe in Allah (God) I don't believe all of this just came out of no where!

 

[otaku]

So you are accusing people of lieing, who were, at the time known for there honesty.

Who have I accused of lying, Lestat? Think carefully before you answer.

It was you that first implied that people lie all the time. I asked you whether that includes scientists?

Yep, they do, so do priests, and so do "prophets"

You see, your arrogance blinds you to the fact that you to place your faith in other people. I am just highlighting the fact that if you are to believe that prophets/priests have lied, then why not the very scientists that you place your beliefs on there words.

This is ironic, coming from a person who believes in god, only based on the strength of what he has been told someone said hundreds of years ago.

At least the people i am more inclined to believe have other people checking their results, re-running tests, comparing theorems.

And what facts do you know? What experiments have YOU conducted which has helped you come to your conclusion?

Or do you base your beliefs on what you have read in books?

So, when have you recorded gods voice lately? I am sure you could get millions for it.

I personally haven't conducted anything more then examine the pictures we have captured of our universe. I have read a lot of books, by many people on the subject, yes.

So you accept that there may be a God, and that x religon may be the true teachings of God?

After all, you did just say your not close minded?

I accept there may be a god - i dont accept that x religion is the true word of god, though. There are too many inconsitancies in the holy books we have to consider a religion is the true word of god.

After all, if he was all powerful, then why doesnt he leave a clear message for us?

What a load of rubbish. You say one thing, yet you completely believe the opposite.

What do you know about what I believe, Lestat?

Religon too is a conclusion drawn from many peopes thoughts and observations, yet you don't have a problem discarding the possibilities of truth in there beliefs do you?

None of their thoughts are backed up by reproducible evidence, Lestat. They are thoughts based on books based on sayings.

No I understand your argument alright. When I expose the ludicrousness of your argument, you have no other comeback other then to claim I don't understand.

What ludicrousness? That you taking drugs is a more sensible answer than the apple just appearing?? Pffft.

Fact of the matter is that you, for some reason or another, are willing to accept that the universe just appeared out of thin air, yet your mind is not willing to accept that an apple can do the same.

No, I have stated that without supplementary evidence, it is a more realistic explanation that you are on the chems.

I can only come to the conclusion that you have been brainwashed to believe what you do. (Sound familiar?)

A conclusion based on fallacious reasoning - which has been pointed out to you.

Translation: Science does not have an explanation for the question you have asked, therefore neither do I. So I will accuse you of not understanding the topic.

No, simply that you totally misunderstood the reasoning behind my comments. no surprises.

Well then, how bout you explain it to the more simple minded folk such as myself. If there is no God as you have continuously said there isn't, then how was the universe created? Did it just 'appear'? Where did it come from?

I have no idea.

No you didn't.

Scientists dont just expound on a subject, and demand that people take their word as the 'truth". It has been explained several times so far, lestat.

They dont come up with ideas out of the blue, and with no evidence demand that people accept the hypothesis as correct.

He is not bound by any rules. He is All-Powerful.

So, how did he get all powerful? The questions are still the same lestat. The god theory simply adds another layer on top.

He is everywhere. As the Quran states "If you look east you will see God, if you look west you will see God, God is closer to you then your jugular vein."

So, he does exist in our universe then? Where is he? What is he made of? How does he interact with our universe if he is not fully of this universe?

All, the questions you use to doubt the big bang apply equally to the god theory. Then there are several more addedon top of that.

Simply saying "He is" is not an answer

As it is a complex topic. At least religon offers an answer. You base your beliefs on 'there is no evidence that God does exists, therefore you must be silly to believe that he does.

This is a question that religon cannot and does not answer. Just as there are many questions that science cannot and does not answer.

pick and answer and stick to it. Either religion offers an answer as you state in the first paragraph, or it doesnt, as you state in the last paragraph.

 

[rick James]

I give you....!

hehe... And the ON button creates a new universe

BTW: Good Post Fire.

Sorry, I can't worship anything that looks so delicious.

 

[Magnum]

Magnum that picture is a belter can you give me the link?

CM I think I just google image'd it. It actually turns out its from Wikipedia.

The link is "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg"

 

[Mr Q]

The problem with this argument is that both sides can use it.

Where did God (or any name people chose to call him) come from? What was the catalyst? If God is independent of a beginning, then the theory that the universe has always been is just as reputable.

Not so. The age of the Universe is something we can study scientifically, and best current estimates are 13.7 billion years (IIRC). So if we can put a starting time on the Universe, then the theory that the Universe is eternal is proven false. There have been theories in the past that theorised an eternal universe, but they have very little modern currency.

However, in the case of God, the only way you can restrict God to the rules of the Universe is to place God within the Universe. Which, if God is the creator, you cannot do.