Autopsy Dogs 64 Hawks 67

[Zgope1]

Is it a problem that we never clumsily kick peoples arm off like what happened to Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

or knee people in the head nearly killing them like what happened to Libba?

Am I being biased or do we just not do that. Not since bont on Haynes

 

[hutchy31]

I think Naughton is about league average with conversion. And every now and then will miss an easy one that supporters fixate on.

The reason for this is because he was drafted as a back. So supporters will always expect him to be worse than he actually is to the point where his misses are remembered far more than his goals.

Jamarra is the opposite. He was touted the the most natural and best forward of his draft. So supporters ignore or make excuses for his misses and celebrate his goals.

It's genuinely a case of confirmation bias happening in front of our eyes.

I can't count how many times supporters have written stuff like Marra has shots from further out or that he's tired when he has his shots. Ignoring that Naughton often nails those same 40ish meter shots and puts more defensive pressure than any other forward in the league. Also it ignores the simple shots Marra has missed or put out on the full the last shot of the North and GWS games stick in my mind as misses Naughton would've been caned for.

We obviously need more investment in our key forwards now that we have three genuine blue chip prospects. But supporters are ******* reactionary sometimes.

Fair argument, but I don't believe it is confirmation bias for at least some of the posters here. I don't think of him like a defender, he's been in the AFL for six years now and a forward for five of them. He gets judged as a forward.

OG will likely be able to give better stats than the AFL tables, which unfortunately don't have OOF listed (at least that I could see on a fairly quick review of the goalkicking), but just on goals/behinds - which is admittedly a basic stat - some key takeaways are:

• Naughton has kicked at 58% accuracy this year on a G/B basis.
• Only Jeremy Finlayson of the top 20 goal kickers for the season has a worse accuracy than that.
• If we extend it to the top 30 players then he's one of five who are below 60% (Rankine at 58%, Higgins at 59% and - gulp - JUH at 49%).
• The top 40 brings in Riewoldt at 55%, Fritsch at 59% and McKay at 52%.

So while his number of 58% might not be that far from guys like Jeremy Cameron, Hipwood and Daniher at 61%, it's nevertheless one of the lowest of the noted goalkickers in the comp. That both he and JUH are in the bottom fifth of the top 40 goalkickers for accuracy this season isn't great.

I checked the top 20 for last year - Naughton kicked 60%, putting him 17/20 for accuracy with only Max King, McKay and Bolton worse.

Then I thought I'd better check the top 20 for 2021, as we won more games that year. Naughton kicked at 54%, with only Greene worse than him at 52%.

So since 2021 he's been 19th, 17th and 19th (to date) for accuracy in the top 20 goal scorers.

I recognise this is pretty superficial - and I also did it quickly so if someone finds a mistake in those numbers I apologise and I'll amend. Having OOF incorporated might change them substantively, and something like expected score given kick difficulty would be great as an insight. But on the basic, high level numbers he doesn't appear to be league average - and to your point JUH is worryingly bad on those numbers so that should possibly be of more concern.

So while I respect the view that some posters (myself included) might be reactionary after a poor loss where he had two bad misses, I don't believe that's the case. He's not an atrocious kick for goal, but he's not a good one or even really an average one at this stage. It's an actual problem imo, not a perception issue.

 

[Dogs Rule]

Unfortunately I see us making the 8. Which does mask the inadequacies.
Having said that we have been either unlucky or crueled by unpires on several occasions this year and we have lost a number of games by less than a goal, generally after losing key players. We will win against the Weagles and then Libba will be back against the Cts in a must win game.
Unnecessarily stressful.

'Unnecessarily Stressful: A Dogs Supporters Life'...coming soon.

 

[tonzdogs]

See above post you are factually incorrect on Naughton.

Second most reliable under the roof out of the talls and most reliable outside of Marvel.

For totality
Naughton 80 shots 40 goals 29 behinds 11 no scores, conversion % 50%
JUH 88 shots 33 goals 34 behinds 21 no scores conversion % 37.5%
Lobb 40 shots 18 goals 16 behinds 6 no scores conversion % 45%

Statistically JUH is an inferior goal kicker to Naughton.

Previous years I would agree Naughton constantly butchers opportunities this year he has improved. One game is clouding everyone’s mind atm.

One game? He did it against GC, GWS, Pies, Hawks, what are you drinking?

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Still trying to process this game, but every time I think about it I come back to Jai Newcombe running free all day...40 touches - 30 uncontested. What?

Must we never try to lock anyone down, or do something to reduce their output? Rhetorical question, as I remember Naughton's "we don't tag" comment in an interview a while back.

Was tearing my hair out watching him dominate the game unchecked, screaming, "why is he always on his own?".

Run someone with him, make him win the ball. Don't just let him have it!!

And then Bevo gives him the max coach's votes

 

[doggy heaven]

The third quarter was an absolute shellacking, reminiscent of 2021 against the Hawks when they just bullied us in every way possible. Apart from Libba who the hell flies the flag for us? Not in a fake tough guy way but in a “I am getting this ball no matter what’ way?

Newcombe is a fine young player and he dominated us like prime Ablett/Judd/Fyfe.

Bont the best player we have but not best captain. Look at tigers !! Dusty best player but Cotchin best captain.

 

[maddog37]

Still trying to process this game, but every time I think about it I come back to Jai Newcombe running free all day...40 touches - 30 uncontested. What?

Must we never try to lock anyone down, or do something to reduce their output? Rhetorical question, as I remember Naughton's "we don't tag" comment in an interview a while back.

Was tearing my hair out watching him dominate the game unchecked, screaming, "why is he always on his own?".

Just run someone with him make him win the ball. Don't just let him have it!!

And then Bevo gives him the max coach's votes

He killed us last time too. It was so obvious he would trouble us.

 

[Doggies_13]

One game? He did it against GC, GWS, Pies, Hawks, what are you drinking?

Facts don’t support it’s always naughtom as being claimed present facts that support your position. JUH is worse statistically.

But yeah keep piling on one person when facts don’t support that and when it’s clearly a club wide issue not an individual issue

 

[Dog 36]

Every team has those moments for sure - we are the worst in the league at dealing with momentum swings by far.

We have holes we don't have critical holes. A good coach would be able to prevent these holes from getting exposed again and again.

Sydney are playing Aaron Francis as their number KPD ffs and they are in the 8.

Saints have a bang average team and are in 6th , Carlton beat Melbourne with such an inexperienced back line.

Our list isn't the best for sure but we are better than 8th. Bevo is currently the worst coach in the league in getting the best out of his team.

The clubs you quoted and others have a system.

Their lists have holes and needs but they have a system.
St Kilda is a good example

 

[immortalmike]

Fair argument, but I don't believe it is confirmation bias for at least some of the posters here. I don't think of him like a defender, he's been in the AFL for six years now and a forward for five of them. He gets judged as a forward.

OG will likely be able to give better stats than the AFL tables, which unfortunately don't have OOF listed (at least that I could see on a fairly quick review of the goalkicking), but just on goals/behinds - which is admittedly a basic stat - some key takeaways are:

• Naughton has kicked at 58% accuracy this year on a G/B basis.
• Only Jeremy Finlayson of the top 20 goal kickers for the season has a worse accuracy than that.
• If we extend it to the top 30 players then he's one of five who are below 60% (Rankine at 58%, Higgins at 59% and - gulp - JUH at 49%).
• The top 40 brings in Riewoldt at 55%, Fritsch at 59% and McKay at 52%.

So while his number of 58% might not be that far from guys like Jeremy Cameron, Hipwood and Daniher at 61%, it's nevertheless one of the lowest of the noted goalkickers in the comp. That both he and JUH are in the bottom fifth of the top 40 goalkickers for accuracy this season isn't great.

I checked the top 20 for last year - Naughton kicked 60%, putting him 17/20 for accuracy with only Max King, McKay and Bolton worse.

Then I thought I'd better check the top 20 for 2021, as we won more games that year. Naughton kicked at 54%, with only Greene worse than him at 52%.

So since 2021 he's been 19th, 17th and 19th (to date) for accuracy in the top 20 goal scorers.

I recognise this is pretty superficial - and I also did it quickly so if someone finds a mistake in those numbers I apologise and I'll amend. Having OOF incorporated might change them substantively, and something like expected score given kick difficulty would be great as an insight. But on the basic, high level numbers he doesn't appear to be league average - and to your point JUH is worryingly bad on those numbers so that should possibly be of more concern.

So while I respect the view that some posters (myself included) might be reactionary after a poor loss where he had two bad misses, I don't believe that's the case. He's not an atrocious kick for goal, but he's not a good one or even really an average one at this stage. It's an actual problem imo, not a perception issue.

It absolutely is when we have a forward who's performed far worse and even Lobb is at 52%. Even Bont is at 51%.

Why the focus on Naughton when it's obviously a club wide issue and he's the best performer out of our key forwards?

Confirmation bias.

Respect your contribution and your research and am probably not talking about you as I'm fairly sure I've seen you bemoaning our forward play all year.

But Naughton's goal kicking is the least of our worries. It's barely worse than Cameron and Daniher and he is such a hard worker you know he'll kill to improve it. Whether we have the structure in place to help him and the other worse performing players is the issue.

 

[immortalmike]

Bont the best player we have but not best captain. Look at tigers !! Dusty best player but Cotchin best captain.

I will say I remember a time where the consensus in football circles was that Cotchin was the worst captain in the league.
Then they won several flags.

 

[hutchy31]

It absolutely is when we have a forward who's performed far worse and even Lobb is at 52%. Even Bont is at 51%.

Why the focus on Naughton when it's obviously a club wide issue and he's the best performer out of our key forwards?

Confirmation bias.

Respect your contribution and your research and am probably not talking about you as I'm fairly sure I've seen you bemoaning our forward play all year.

But Naughton's goal kicking is the least of our worries. It's barely worse than Cameron and Daniher and he is such a hard worker you know he'll kill to improve it. Whether we have the structure in place to help him and the other worse performing players is the issue.

I have definitely bemoaned our forward play more than a few times probably to the great annoyance of most on this board as I’m like a broken record. I took a look at the goalkicking stats as I was interested but I do think it is a club issue, and has been for a while imo. I’m more concerned about the movement and leading patterns than goalkicking though, Sunday saw the return of 3-4 forwards in the same small sector of the forward 50 on a regular basis. We just look dysfunctional there fairly frequently, the difference between our best and worst performances in that area is sizeable, and then the impact of the missed opportunities can be magnified.

TLDR - we are in dire need of a functional forward coach.

I will say I remember a time where the consensus in football circles was that Cotchin was the worst captain in the league.
Then they won several flags.

Yeah, we all got that one wrong I think. Kicking into the wind in the first quarter of a final and getting thumped was going to be his legacy, until it wasn’t.

Richmond did have a significant footy department turnover in 2016 though. Captain and coach remained, but Balme came in and I think almost all of the assistants were turned over. A shake up of that magnitude is required here I think.

 

[Mutt]

Bont the best player we have but not best captain. Look at tigers !! Dusty best player but Cotchin best captain.

Bont is the least of our problems. Look elsewhere.

 

[NBates]

Has anyone heard an explanation of what happened in that last kick out?

Was it addressed by Bev in the presser?

Embarrassing and that is been nice.

This comment shoul

Can I just say as someone relatively new to big footy, your stats and analysis are a gift and I vote you to be at least a new assistant coach when they clean out at the end of the season

I'd be a good motivational assistant

 

[HK_Bulldog]

Bont the best player we have but not best captain. Look at tigers !! Dusty best player but Cotchin best captain.

Who would make a better captain than Bont? I see Bont and then daylight, then some more daylight, then I'm in danger of overusing the word daylight.

 

[tonzdogs]

Facts don’t support it’s always naughtom as being claimed present facts that support your position. JUH is worse statistically.

But yeah keep piling on one person when facts don’t support that and when it’s clearly a club wide issue not an individual issue

I know it’s club wide, but Naughton is our main target and his misses kill our momentum

 

[Dogs Rule]

Bont is the least of our problems. Look elsewhere.

Yep, his shoulders must be so sore.

 

[Proffessor]

Bont the best player we have but not best captain. Look at tigers !! Dusty best player but Cotchin best captain.

I think that is a ridiculous statement. Captains in football teams can have an impact but it is relatively small, compared to many other factors. It is massively overestimated in the media simply because it gives them something to talk about, but most of that gibberish should be taken with a large amount of salt.

Without Damien Hardwick, Dusty, Jack Riewoldt, and a bunch of other really good people on and off the field, Richmond don't win flags, and Cotchin doesn't look like much of a captain even if he had personally performed exactly the same.

I used to chuckle a few years ago when the media would regularly trot out dramatic stories about what a great captain Michael Voss was because he captained 3 flags. Now I'm not saying he wasn't a great player, because he was. I also get the impression that he was a pretty good leader too. However, Brisbane just happened to be a super team created by the AFL, led by a legendary coach and given a bunch of special privileges to virtually guarantee their success. You could mount a pretty strong argument that whoever captained them was largely irrelevant to their success.

Bont has been performing amazingly well individually and trying his best to lead his team. Being unable to drag them over the line in every game doesn't mean he isn't an excellent captain. Hell, his biggest failing at the moment is that he tries to do too much and runs himself into the ground because he is forced to carry too many passengers.

A team is made up of 22 players, and they all need to contribute and work as a team. It staggers me how often people on this forum criticise our better players for not doing more whilst defending so many lesser players who contribute so little.

I say this as someone who thought Bont was given the captaincy too early. I thought Easton Wood should have stayed captain for at least 1 more year and\or possibly Libba could have filled the role in between Wood and Bont for a year or two. However right now, I don't think there is any doubt that Bont is far and away our best option as captain.

 

[revo333]

Not the first time Libba has been injured early and it's all gone to s#it without him.

 

[zucvv]

English+Smith+Bevo is our choking combo since 2021 GF. I'd start fresh with Sweet as main ruck to be more reliable from 2024.

 

[PocketRocket08]

Im sure someone has better stats, but we very rarely have players in the top 5/7 for kms travelled per game, and when we do it’s more often our keys backs racking them up. Is our midfield lazy? is it because we have so many rotations and spread the load?

Fitness seems to be the issue to me. Saints have no where near the talent we do but are so much fitter. Our fitness staff need to step up.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

Who would make a better captain than Bont? I see Bont and then daylight, then some more daylight, then I'm in danger of overusing the word daylight.

The only player I thought worthy of captain other than Bont was Wallis.

 

[Randomthoughts]

We need a detailed review of last years end of season review. .

 

[HK_Bulldog]

The only player I thought worthy of captain other than Bont was Wallis.

Naughton would be next in line I think. His year has been solid but hasn’t improved on last year as much as i’d like. Then probably Caleb and Richards are next. Weightman would also be in the mix. Macrae, Libba and Jones provide a different type of leadership. I assume we are identifying the next group of leaders and working with them.

 

[maddog37]

Naughton can never be captain until he gets rid of the headband.

Harsh but fair imho.