News Dons ASADA scandal (Latest: Pg 101 - CAS verdict. Guilty, 12 months.)

[MarkT2]

Understand the context but it is a furphy. In regards to your Maxwell comments, let's not confuse regular supplements with an injection regime the likes the players had never seen before and were shocked by, according to Jobe.

Sure but let's also be clear about the comments of the Collingwood captain of the time directly in relation to the Essendon scenario. I heard him a number of times on SEN say exactly that he would do and take what the club said to do and take when asked about the Essendon scenario. He said he would trust the club. He was adamant. He's also in the vast majority. As I said, hopefully if it happened now things would be different but is only due to the post 2012 fallout and consequential education of the players and officials.

 

[TradeDraft]

Yep, yet more boys club stupidity:

http://www.3aw.com.au/news/western-...ce-of-essendon-34-on-3aw-20160211-gmrwtr.html

Stewie is obviously a good bloke...

Yep - I am getting Sick of AFL People saying the Peptide Bummers did nothing Wrong.

Shows that it's a Boys Club and Shows they are not very smart

 

[TradeDraft]

Did anybody hear Luke Beveridge speak on the issue? I feel dumber for the experience. It was worse than Balmy's crap on the same station. This AFL endorsed 'messaging' (and now a couple of politicians are getting involved) is embarrassing for our sport and in fact the country.

If the code, and it seems some are trying to set it up this way, leaves WADA, what a dilemma. My preference would be to kiss the code goodbye but being a Pies supporter that would be impossible. So will be stuck in a code that would require constant showering every time another drug test was treated by the AFL with the phrase ...'the poor players, they are so brave.'

Meanwhile an appeal based on something flimsy. How stupid are the players to continually allow those that actually don't have their best interests in mind, use them to decrease their liability or for their own agenda.

Rant over.

This Proves the AFL where doing everything Possible to get the Peptide Bummers Off

 

[good4footy]

Sure but let's also be clear about the comments of the Collingwood captain of the time directly in relation to the Essendon scenario. I heard him a number of times on SEN say exactly that he would do and take what the club said to do and take when asked about the Essendon scenario. He said he would trust the club. He was adamant. He's also in the vast majority. As I said, hopefully if it happened now things would be different but is only due to the post 2012 fallout and consequential education of the players and officials.

...and yet Judd and others have said the opposite. How much media has this opposite point received? There is vested interest in it being painted that way by the industry and the media that supports it.

I understand both the argument and the 'context' being put forward of why the players did what they did- IMO it is just cods wallop.

Footy club cultures are not, in the last 10 years or do at least, the way they are bring portrayed by people like Gordon and Beveridge. The facts as outlined in a previous post actually support the Judd argument rather than the words of those with vested interests.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

...and yet Judd and others have said the opposite. How much media has this opposite point received? There is vested interest in it being painted that way by the industry and the media that supports it.

I understand both the argument and the 'context' being put forward of why the players did what they did- IMO it is just cods wallop.

Footy club cultures are not, in the last 10 years or do at least, the way they are bring portrayed by people like Gordon and Beveridge. The facts as outlined in a previous post actually support the Judd argument rather than the words of those with vested interests.

I've heard a number of high profile players (some Captains) say that while they understood what happened at Essendon, they themselves would have asked a lot more questions and would not just have accepted whatever they were being told

 

[tassiemaniac]

...and yet Judd and others have said the opposite. How much media has this opposite point received? There is vested interest in it being painted that way by the industry and the media that supports it.

I understand both the argument and the 'context' being put forward of why the players did what they did- IMO it is just cods wallop.

Footy club cultures are not, in the last 10 years or do at least, the way they are bring portrayed by people like Gordon and Beveridge. The facts as outlined in a previous post actually support the Judd argument rather than the words of those with vested interests.

I think the sentiment underlying these statements by many within the football world highlights why the WADA code is so important - its an outside body that says hey this is the accepted standard of accountability for all athletes worldwide - individuals are responsible for what they take. The footy world can stick its head in the sand as much as they like but the players are getting paid hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. It's simply not acceptable to take that level of money and pretend you're not responsible or accountable for what goes into your body.

I think its finally time for the AFL community to grow up and break free from its blokey team first at all costs culture - look at the pay differential within clubs - players aren't equal. The leadership groups within teams should be charged with ensuring players are aware of their individual responsibilities and make sure that each individual asks the right questions before taking anything.

 

[Black_White]

Sure but let's also be clear about the comments of the Collingwood captain of the time directly in relation to the Essendon scenario. I heard him a number of times on SEN say exactly that he would do and take what the club said to do and take when asked about the Essendon scenario. He said he would trust the club. He was adamant. He's also in the vast majority. As I said, hopefully if it happened now things would be different but is only due to the post 2012 fallout and consequential education of the players and officials.

Would he have not informed ASADA that he was having off site injections?
Because every player will trust their club, but when the drug testers come a knocking, would he tell them he was having Panadol but not tell them about the injections in his gut?
Put that question to him and let's see what the answer is.

 

[MarkT2]

Would he have not informed ASADA that he was having off site injections?
Because every player will trust their club, but when the drug testers come a knocking, would he tell them he was having Panadol but not tell them about the injections in his gut?
Put that question to him and let's see what the answer is.

I don't know for sure but I suspect not if he was told not to based on how adamant he was about doing what the club told him to do and how much faith he said he placed in the club. As I said, that is why players and are supportive of the Essendon players. Most of them seem to feel as though it could have been them at that time. I guess they feel that the Essendon players would have firmly believed they were taken legal supplements. I really don't have much issue with players and coaches being sympathetic to the players. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be suspended. Essendon as a club is another matter entirely. They don't have records because they don't want records. It's the only think related to training of players in 20 years they don't have records of. The club has a history of cheating to rival Carlton.

 

[TradeDraft]

God Hird the Turd will not let it go. Guess Legal just taking as much money from him as Possible

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...a/news-story/9b56b90d36aba4004c75cf42fb73afd1

 

[Black_White]

I don't know for sure but I suspect not if he was told not to based on how adamant he was about doing what the club told him to do and how much faith he said he placed in the club. As I said, that is why players and are supportive of the Essendon players. Most of them seem to feel as though it could have been them at that time. I guess they feel that the Essendon players would have firmly believed they were taken legal supplements. I really don't have much issue with players and coaches being sympathetic to the players. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be suspended. Essendon as a club is another matter entirely. They don't have records because they don't want records. It's the only think related to training of players in 20 years they don't have records of. The club has a history of cheating to rival Carlton.

Then the AFL players in general are dumber than I think.
The simple facts are that if you TRULY BELIEVE that you are taking LEGAL supplements then you inform the drug testers when you fill in the questionnaire.
The Essendon players told the testers of every Panadol that they ingested, but said nothing about a needle jabbed into their gut, off site, on weekly occasions.
How can anyone, even AFL players, consider that the banned players were not contriving to beat the system? How can anyone seriously believe that the players did not think they were taking illegal substances when they refused to tell the drug testers.
Only Robbo could swallow that story.

 

[good4footy]

Then the AFL players in general are dumber than I think.
The simple facts are that if you TRULY BELIEVE that you are taking LEGAL supplements then you inform the drug testers when you fill in the questionnaire.
The Essendon players told the testers of every Panadol that they ingested, but said nothing about a needle jabbed into their gut, off site, on weekly occasions.
How can anyone, even AFL players, consider that the banned players were not contriving to beat the system? How can anyone seriously believe that the players did not think they were taking illegal substances when they refused to tell the drug testers.
Only Robbo could swallow that story.

Mark doesn't need me to back him but I dont think that is his point. They did what you say they did because of the cultural expectation / pressure of the club environment is what I believe his argument to be.

I just don't agree that that cultural pressure exists in this day and age - not to the extent that a player would accept a process like the one they went through and not be capable of speaking up.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

What a simple life it must be having such a tiny brain. It never ceases to amaze me how such people can be so successful in life.

I don't want to be rude, but I don't get what people see in Luke beverage.
He looks and sounds awkward to me, a bit of a try hard.

But here in Australia is very simple: the whole world cheats with drugs but NEVER Australians, it's all just a big misunderstanding..

Oh and hi to Mrs Warne (Shane's mother)

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Then the AFL players in general are dumber than I think.
The simple facts are that if you TRULY BELIEVE that you are taking LEGAL supplements then you inform the drug testers when you fill in the questionnaire.
The Essendon players told the testers of every Panadol that they ingested, but said nothing about a needle jabbed into their gut, off site, on weekly occasions.
How can anyone, even AFL players, consider that the banned players were not contriving to beat the system? How can anyone seriously believe that the players did not think they were taking illegal substances when they refused to tell the drug testers.
Only Robbo could swallow that story.

Robbo would swallow anything hits gives him
Happily

After all he is hirds main polyp searcher

 

[MarkT2]

Then the AFL players in general are dumber than I think.

It's a bit harsh and frankly judgemental to classify the view of someone at the coalface as dumber than your own watching on TV. Players have made judgements based on their reading of the club environment at the time. Dismissing that so simply is unfair on them. The fact is their view seems very widespread notwithstanding their varied backgrounds education and intelligence.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

It's a bit harsh and frankly judgemental to classify the view of someone at the coalface as dumber than your own watching on TV. Players have made judgements based on their reading of the club environment at the time. Dismissing that so simply is unfair on them. The fact is their view seems very widespread notwithstanding their varied backgrounds education and intelligence.

They should have used that word in a different context
Such as The AFL Drugs Code, The Consent Forms, The ASADA Drug Testing Forms.
Had they done that kind of reading they would all be in the Clubs today preparing for the season ahead.

You are generally very big on 'Personal Responsibilities' Mark, yet on this you go the other way when this is exactly the time when individuals should be called to account

 

[MarkT2]

You are generally very big on 'Personal Responsibilities' Mark, yet on this you go the other way when this is exactly the time when individuals should be called to account

I was commenting on widespread player/coach views on the Essendon players based on their understanding of the landscape at the time. I can understand that. That doesn't absolve Essendon in any way or diminish the payers actual responsibility for what goes into their body. As it transpires the Essendon players (and our 2) are drug cheats and have to be responsible for that. Our two are accepting their responsibility. I'm not sure the Essendon players are though.

FWIW this latest appeal is probably less about getting off than it is about financial culpability. It will be a big ask for them to have the decision overturned but the players have to exhaust all avenues before taking action against the club. I don't hold their appeal against them on that basis. Essendon the club are in for as lot more pain and I have no sympathy for them. Their supporters on the other hands are another matter. Particularly the kids.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I was commenting on widespread player/coach views on the Essendon players based on their understanding of the landscape at the time. I can understand that. That doesn't absolve Essendon in any way or diminish the payers actual responsibility for what goes into their body. As it transpires the Essendon players (and our 2) are drug cheats and have to be responsible for that. Our two are accepting their responsibility. I'm not sure the Essendon players are though.

FWIW this latest appeal is probably less about getting off than it is about financial culpability. It will be a big ask for them to have the decision overturned but the players have to exhaust all avenues before taking action against the club. I don't hold their appeal against them on that basis. Essendon the club are in for as lot more pain and I have no sympathy for them. Their supporters on the other hands are another matter. Particularly the kids.

Fair enough

 

[Black_White]

It's a bit harsh and frankly judgemental to classify the view of someone at the coalface as dumber than your own watching on TV. Players have made judgements based on their reading of the club environment at the time. Dismissing that so simply is unfair on them. The fact is their view seems very widespread notwithstanding their varied backgrounds education and intelligence.

Maybe their view is widespread because they all have little secrets they would like to think they could get away with if caught.

 

[TradeDraft]

I 100% agree with this as It looks like the AFL tired to cover as much up

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ntial-documents-released-20160223-gn0z12.html

 

[good4footy]

I 100% agree with this as It looks like the AFL tired to cover as much up

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ntial-documents-released-20160223-gn0z12.html

Dave I would think most Bomber supporters would be embarrassed by some of the high profile people that have gone into bat for them. This guy is as big a nutter as Andrew Bolt, Bruce Francis & Alan Jones. Some of the things he has said in the past about climate change and same sex marriage is scary.

I am not against the process being looked at as I believe there is room for improvement, but this guy has made statements without even having seen the evidence he is asking to see. I think his mind is already made up- I wonder why.

NB- not to say those pro the decision / process don't have some nutters in support but the above is some list.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

I 100% agree with this as It looks like the AFL tired to cover as much up

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ntial-documents-released-20160223-gn0z12.html

What part of the article suggests that?

 

[TradeDraft]

What part of the article suggests that?

That the AFL has kept the Papers Hidden

 

[Baltimore Jack]

That the AFL has kept the Papers Hidden

That could possibly be about privacy though and not necessarily about a conspiracy

 

[MagpieBat]

Dave I would think most Bomber supporters would be embarrassed by some of the high profile people that have gone into bat for them. This guy is as big a nutter as Andrew Bolt, Bruce Francis & Alan Jones. Some of the things he has said in the past about climate change and same sex marriage is scary.

I am not against the process being looked at as I believe there is room for improvement, but this guy has made statements without even having seen the evidence he is asking to see. I think his mind is already made up- I wonder why.

 

[Black_White]

I'm gobsmacked that anyone involved with the AFL would be allowed to have contact with banned players.