Politics Fascist takeover US 2025.

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Riiiight and the sky is green and the water is purple.

You realise Hitler didn’t start necking people on day one right?
Ok so you’re predicting that Trump will embark upon a campaign of terror and kill all opponents. That appears fanciful to me. To me it’s more likely that Trump will manipulate the machinery of government in every way possible to achieve his ends and maintain control, I very much doubt he resorts to violence.

His opponents have attempted to kill him, but there’s no evidence that he will respond with similar methods. We’ll see.
 
The Wikipedia definition is wrong. Fascism was born from socialism. It was not “far right”, it was a movement from the left side of the political spectrum as is evident from examining the origins of Mussolini and the Nazis. But it has been re-defined as “far right” in a form of revisionism.

As for other parts of that definition, Trump believes in wider personal freedoms, he does not support the subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race. He doesn’t believe in the strong regimentation of society and the economy, he believes in less regulation and low taxes.

The closest Trump has come to “forcible” suppression of opposition was the removal from office of those who don’t agree with his agenda (hardly forcible) and the refusal to accept the outcome of previous election which ignited the march on the White House. He seems reckless with, and perhaps contemptuous of some democratic institutions, but nothing he has done comes close to the actions of the fascists who just killed their opponents.

I would get less bogged down in "left" versus "right", and just start accepting that Trump's politics are... in a modern context... the epitome of exactly what anyone means when they say "fascism".

Is Dutton a "fascist"? It's over-egged. Was Howard a "fascist"? Clearly not. Those sorts of comments are hyperbolic. But we need to stop thinking it's hyperbole when we talk about the current Trump administration.



- Overt nationalistic ideals, and a government that owns the space of defining what does and doesn't fit within those ideals
- Authoritarian control of economic and social policy, typically aimed at benefitting the ruling class (who benefits out of the authoritarian control of the economy is the bit where your "left" and "right" comments come into play... but it's fascism either way)
- Suppression and persecution of individuals who don't adhere to the defined ideals as a means of strengthening the national identity as a whole.... that's what's happening now. Eliminating "woke", banning of trans-rights, taking away DEI programmes, etc..... that's suppression of individuals. Trump doesn't believe in individual freedom, unless it's inline with the defined ideals. He doesn't believe in less regulation and lower tax - he believes in higher regulation and more tax (tariffs) on THOSE THAT DO NOT CONFORM
- Use of the military, centralisation of power into the authoritarian leadership, and suppression of opposition... this is the bit to worry about because if it is what comes next, that's now a full-blown fascist state


If you purely look at it from the context of someone who mostly conforms with the nationalistic ideals... it's all great and happy days and looks like more freedom and more money. But if you DON'T conform with the nationalistic ideals, you're going to become unemployable and unincluded in society. THAT is fascism. And it's scary because anyone can be ok in that system until the day the leadership wake up and decide something about them doesn't "fit" anymore.
 

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Ok so you’re predicting that Trump will embark upon a campaign of terror and kill all opponents. That appears fanciful to me. To me it’s more likely that Trump will manipulate the machinery of government in every way possible to achieve his ends and maintain control, I very much doubt he resorts to violence.
please refer Jan 6th 2021
 
The Wikipedia definition is wrong. Fascism was born from socialism. It was not “far right”, it was a movement from the left side of the political spectrum as is evident from examining the origins of Mussolini and the Nazis. But it has been re-defined as “far right” in a form of revisionism.
So, is your definition of 'left' and 'right' purely economic? I.e., capitalism is right wing; socialism is left wing?
 
Not really. Don’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia, Bigfooty is where the truth is to be found.

Leon has been spouting that wikipedia should be defunded.
 
Ok hear me out.

Fascism is socialism in ww2

Even though the fascists we’re on one side of that Spanish civil war and the socialists were on the other side, with Hitler and Mussolini supporting the fascist side and the ussr supporting the socialist side.

Even though Hitler put the socialists in concentration camps.

Even though Hitler throughout his main Kampf book constantly rails at the evils of socialism, communism and Bolshevism.


For instance:

“Bolshevism is our greatest menace. Kill Bolshevism in Germany and you restore 70 million people to power. France owes her strength not to her armies but to the forces of Bolshevism and dissension in our midst’…



Even though neo Nazis consider themselves on the right and despise socialism.


Pants on head stupid.
Hitler did indeed despise Marxists, communists and Bolsheviks. He sought to eliminate political rivals, which included those with differing views of socialism. Stalin killed plenty of communists in the Great Terror but nobody’s citing that as proof that he was right wing.

Neo-Nazis, as far as I can tell, appear drawn primarily to the nationalistic and racist ideals of the Nazis. I’m not sure of their economic policies, if they even have them.
 
The Nazis were apparently fascists. But they were also socialists - national socialists. At least they began as that before they killed all the socialists during the Night of Long Knives.
FTFY.
These days the term “fascist” seems to be used to describe those who promote free markets and general conservatism, which is either a complete misunderstanding, or deliberate deception.
... have a good look at this forum, my man. Some have cited the 14 indicators of fascism by Umberto Eco; I use Roger Griffin's palingenetic ultranationalism:
1.The belief in a nationalistic myth of a shining, golden past...
2. that the present has fallen from...
3. and it's the left's fault, but...
4. can be reclaimed, via social rebirth and steadfast dedication to the nation.

Ask people why they think things, instead of assuming it. Give this one a look for a discussion of the myriad of possible definitions and ways to assess fascist regimes from the past.
Trump is a staunch nationalist obviously, and he seems to have autocratic tendencies but he’s certainly not “fascist”.
The problem isn't just Trump. Some to a majority of the people he's chosen to surround himself with and has empowered via institutional office are fascists or hyper capitalist, which is a relationship that hasn't gone well for minorities before.

Again, ask people what they think and why they think it instead of assuming it.
The Wikipedia definition is wrong. Fascism was born from socialism. It was not “far right”, it was a movement from the left side of the political spectrum as is evident from examining the origins of Mussolini and the Nazis. But it has been re-defined as “far right” in a form of revisionism.
... you're one of those, then.

To try and portray fascism as left wing is to be profoundly ahistorical.
 
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So, is your definition of 'left' and 'right' purely economic? I.e., capitalism is right wing; socialism is left wing?
Use of the left/right spectrum is imperfect. I understand that it originated following the French Revolution with the right referring to the old regime, being the royalists and aristocrats and the left being their revolutionary opponents.

Since then it appears to have evolved in a way that has capitalism at the right and communism at the left. That’s why I suggest that to regard fascism as a product of the right is misleading.

What’s your definition?
 
https://apnews.com/united-states-government-be0f73d88547411a9a85e402d23788ed
Trump has taken to Twitter to slam “The FAKE NEWS media,” saying it “is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!”​
Trump specifically cited a series of news outlets, naming The New York Times, NBC, ABC, CBS and CNN.​
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarado...move-chrissy-teigen-insult-ex-exec-testifies/
The Trump White House urged it remove a 2019 Tweet by celebrity Chrissy Teigen insulting then-President Donald Trump​
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https://newrepublic.com/article/188946/kash-patel-fbi-enemies-list
Trump’s pick to run the FBI has already made it known who he plans to persecute if he gets confirmed.
“not just in government, but in the media.… Whether it’s criminally or civilly, we’ll figure that out.”​

Michael Atkinson (former inspector general of the intelligence community)
Lloyd Austin (defense secretary under President Joe Biden)
Brian Auten (supervisory intelligence analyst, FBI)
James Baker (not the former secretary of state; this James Baker is former general counsel for the FBI and former deputy general counsel at Twitter)
Bill Barr (former attorney general under Trump)
John Bolton (former national security adviser under Trump)
Stephen Boyd (former chief of legislative affairs, FBI)
Joe Biden (president of the United States)
John Brennan (former CIA director under President Barack Obama)
John Carlin (acting deputy attorney general, previously ran DOJ’s national security division under Trump)
Eric Ciaramella (former National Security Council staffer, Obama and Trump administrations)
Pat Cippolone (former White House counsel under Trump)
James Clapper (Obama’s director of national intelligence)
Hillary Clinton (former secretary of state and presidential candidate)
James Comey (former FBI director)
Elizabeth Dibble (former deputy chief of mission, U.S. Embassy, London)
Mark Esper (former secretary of defense under Trump)
Alyssa Farah (former director of strategic communications under Trump)
Evelyn Farkas (former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine, Eurasia under Obama)
Sarah Isgur Flores (former DOJ head of communications under Trump)
Merrick Garland (attorney general under Biden)
Stephanie Grisham (former press secretary under Trump)
Kamala Harris (vice president under Biden; former presidential candidate)
Gina Haspel (CIA director under Trump)
Fiona Hill (former staffer on the National Security Council)
Curtis Heide (FBI agent)
Eric Holder (former attorney general under Obama)*
Robert Hur (special counsel who investigated Biden over mishandling of classified documents)
Cassidy Hutchinson (aide to Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows)
Nina Jankowicz (former executive director, Disinformation Governance Board, under Biden)
Lois Lerner (former IRS director under Obama)
Loretta Lynch (former attorney general under Obama)
Charles Kupperman (former deputy national security adviser under Trump)
Gen. Kenneth Mackenzie, retired (former commander of United States Central Command)
Andrew McCabe (former FBI deputy director under Trump)
Ryan McCarthy (former secretary of the Army under Trump)
Mary McCord (former acting assistant attorney general for national security under Obama)
Denis McDonough (former chief of staff for Obama, secretary of veterans affairs under Biden)
Gen. Mark Milley, retired (former chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff)
Lisa Monaco (deputy attorney general under Biden)
Sally Myer (former supervisory attorney, FBI)
Robert Mueller (former FBI director, special counsel for Russiagate)
Bruce Ohr (former associate deputy attorney general under Obama and Trump)
Nellie Ohr (wife of Bruce Ohr and former CIA employee)
Lisa Page (former legal counsel for Deputy Director Andrew McCabe at FBI under Obama and Trump; exchanged texts about Trump with Peter Strzok)
Pat Philbin (former deputy White House counsel under Trump)
John Podesta (former counselor to Obama; senior adviser to Biden on climate policy)
Samatha Power (former ambassador to the United Nations under Obama, administrator of AID under Biden)
Bill Priestap (former assistant director for counterintelligence, FBI, under Obama)
Susan Rice (former national security adviser under Obama, director of the Domestic Policy Council under Biden)
Rod Rosenstein (former deputy attorney general under Trump)
Peter Strzok (former deputy assistant director for counterintelligence, FBI, under Obama and Trump; exchanged texts about Trump with Lisa Page)
Jake Sullivan (national security adviser under President Joe Biden)
Michael Sussman (former legal representative, Democratic National Committee)
Miles Taylor (former DHS official under Trump; penned New York Times op-ed critical of Trump under the byline, “Anonymous”)
Timothy Thibault (former assistant special agent, FBI)
Andrew Weissman (Mueller’s deputy in Russiagate probe)
Alexander Vindman (former National Security Council director for European affairs)
Christopher Wray (FBI director under Trump and Biden; Trump nominated Patel to replace him even though Wray’s term doesn’t expire until August 2027)
Sally Yates (former deputy attorney general under Obama and, briefly, acting attorney general under Trump)

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/10/nx-s1-5252473/elon-musk-germany-election-afd-candidate-alice-weidel

After working to help elect Donald Trump, and gaining a new role over U.S. government efficiency, tech billionaire Musk has gone on a tear on X criticizing and insulting European leaders — from the United Kingdom to Germany, France and others — causing alarm among politicians, while winning applause from some including Italy's prime minister.​
Germany's domestic intelligence agency has put the AfD — a party known for hardline stances against immigration and Islam — under surveillance for suspected right-wing extremism, which the party denies. Figures in the party have been accused of using Nazi slogans in speeches and downplaying the Holocaust.​

1737599950547.png

D.E.I are an enemy of the people. If you are found to be giving them safe haven you will be punished.


Ok. Let's now look for ways to define the final outcomes of fascism, in order to point out that the Trump regime isn't there yet... Therefore will never be there.
 

Leon has been spouting that wikipedia should be defunded.
I like Wikipedia, it’s very useful. But it’s not always reliable.
 
FTFY.

... have a good look at this forum, my man. Some have cited the 14 indicators of fascism by Umberto Eco; I use Roger Griffin's palingenetic ultranationalism:
1.The belief in a nationalistic myth of a shining, golden past...
2. that the present has fallen from...
3. and it's the left's fault, but...
4. can be reclaimed, via social rebirth and steadfast dedication to the nation.

Ask people why they think things, instead of assuming it. Give this one a look for a discussion of the myriad of possible definitions and ways to assess fascist regimes from the past.

The problem isn't just Trump. Some to a majority of the people he's chosen to surround himself with and has empowered via institutional office are fascists or hyper capitalist, which is a relationship that hasn't gone well for minorities before.

Again, ask people what they think and why they think it instead of assuming it.

... you're one of those, then.

To try and portray fascism as left wing is to be profoundly ahistorical.

:)

Bigfooty is where the truth is to be found.
 

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Hitler did indeed despise Marxists, communists and Bolsheviks. He sought to eliminate political rivals, which included those with differing views of socialism. Stalin killed plenty of communists in the Great Terror but nobody’s citing that as proof that he was right wing.

Neo-Nazis, as far as I can tell, appear drawn primarily to the nationalistic and racist ideals of the Nazis. I’m not sure of their economic policies, if they even have them.
Right so you are confidently asserting something without even basic knowledge of the thing you are talking about.

That my friends, is conservatism.
 
Ok so you’re predicting that Trump will embark upon a campaign of terror and kill all opponents. That appears fanciful to me. To me it’s more likely that Trump will manipulate the machinery of government in every way possible to achieve his ends and maintain control, I very much doubt he resorts to violence.

His opponents have attempted to kill him, but there’s no evidence that he will respond with similar methods. We’ll see.
You can also detain people without trial and put them in camps …. In one spot….. I shall call my invention: concentration camps
 
FTFY.

... have a good look at this forum, my man. Some have cited the 14 indicators of fascism by Umberto Eco; I use Roger Griffin's palingenetic ultranationalism:
1.The belief in a nationalistic myth of a shining, golden past...
2. that the present has fallen from...
3. and it's the left's fault, but...
4. can be reclaimed, via social rebirth and steadfast dedication to the nation.

Ask people why they think things, instead of assuming it. Give this one a look for a discussion of the myriad of possible definitions and ways to assess fascist regimes from the past.

The problem isn't just Trump. Some to a majority of the people he's chosen to surround himself with and has empowered via institutional office are fascists or hyper capitalist, which is a relationship that hasn't gone well for minorities before.

Again, ask people what they think and why they think it instead of assuming it.

... you're one of those, then.

To try and portray fascism as left wing is to be profoundly ahistorical.
If you want to understand what the fascists stood for it’s best to look to their policies and actions rather than the opinions of authors and other commentators made nearly a century later (especially given the revisionism that has become popular).

Here’s a link to a site with the Nazis 25 point plan:

It doesn’t sound much like capitalism does it?
 
If you want to understand what the fascists stood for it’s best to look to their policies and actions rather than the opinions of authors and other commentators made nearly a century later (especially given the revisionism that has become popular).

Here’s a link to a site with the Nazis 25 point plan:

It doesn’t sound much like capitalism does it?
Fascism is not Nazism.

Nazism was a fascist ideology.

Nazism was and is a form of fascism.
 

Now show me the bit where he has openly supported the German neo Nazi party and worn a hat with Hitlers font MAGA

Context.

Btw If someone had said to waltz that he’d done a Nazi salute his response would have been something like this;

In response to the gesture I made yesterday I can see how people would interpret that as a Nazi salute and I would like to take this opportunity to reassure everyone that I would not associate in any way shape or form with this foul ideology. I reject Nazism in every way and apologise for my gesture and won’t use it again.”

You know - like someone who isn’t a ****ing nazi
 
You seem to be a very emotive poster and struggle with a rational discussion, instead resorting to attempts at ridicule to de-rail discussion.
There’s nothing emotive in that sentence.

You quite literally confidently assert something sweeping about a political party and then a post later say that you know nothing of their economic policies.

Do you not realise how asinine that is?
 
Use of the left/right spectrum is imperfect. I understand that it originated following the French Revolution with the right referring to the old regime, being the royalists and aristocrats and the left being their revolutionary opponents.

Since then it appears to have evolved in a way that has capitalism at the right and communism at the left. That’s why I suggest that to regard fascism as a product of the right is misleading.

What’s your definition?
I don't use those terms, precisely because of how fluid and vague they are.

The current usage seems to be 'left' = progressive, 'right' = conservative, which matches up with those original definitions.

It all depends on whether socialism is considered progressive, and capitalism, conservative. What do you think?
 
You seem to be a very emotive poster and struggle with a rational discussion, instead resorting to attempts at ridicule to de-rail discussion.
Don't do this.
A huge part of interacting with this kind of discussion is engaging on an emotional level. A purely logical approach would support genocide in some cases.
So don't attempt to dismiss a poster or their positions as being 'too emotional'. Engage with what they post or ignore it.

If you're 'above it', you don't need to point out that you are.
 
Yeah still not that close, wrist bent and hand pointing straight up in a wave rather than flat and same angle as his arm.

Do keep trying though :tearsofjoy:
Hopefully you have picked up i’m just having fun with it now. Honestly, it boils down to my previous point, some don’t think it is, some do. That’s it. We move on. How’s the day treating you?
 

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