Review Game days suck - Carlton prevail

[numbwombat]

I reckon Tomahawk will get a farewell game at Kardinia Park even if it means playing in a moon boot

 

[feelinfeline]

Agree on Dahlhaus, who played 10 games for the season but it was only 3 games after round 7

Higgins barely played senior football for in 2022 - a total of 5 games, with rounds 6 & 7 his only consecutive matches; he was phased out pretty early. His final game was against North in a fitting senior farewell

Yes, Higgins was injured a lot that year, but I’m sure you recall there were complaints on here about him getting any games at all that year.

He was clearly past his best and probably carrying chronic injuries.

 

[Klink]

A fair bit of negativity re Clark in the gameday thread, but I thought it was promising. Turned it over a lot, but he’s had a few ineffectual games in the past without many touches and used it quite well - he needs to learn to accumulate and that will necessarily mean some sloppy disposal as he improves. 20 touches - his first game above 16 - and against a strong midfield, games where our older mids have failed to fire this year.

Thought SDK was very decent and I don’t agree at all that a player must have had a bad game if they were beaten by a good player. I don’t like mucking around with talls’ positions though - hope they decide fast if we persevere in the ruck or backline.

Well said. The criticism of a 13-game player is just pathetic. He may not end up being an A grade star, but lets reassess after 50-70 games. He might not even make it, but lets give him the opportunity over the next 2-3 years to prove what he can do.

Like you, I saw quite a few positives. Young players are bound to make mistakes - he turned it over a bit but that is not abnormal for a 13-game player. His work ethic and committment cannot be questioned. He will give himself every chance to be a very good AFL player.

I cringe when I see people going after a 19-year-old with 13-games under the belt.

 

[Klink]

I reckon Tomahawk will get a farewell game at Kardinia Park even if it means playing in a moon boot

I hope so. Ill be devastated if that is how he finishes up. He deserves a farewell game and we would love the opportunity to celebrate and farewell a great champion.

 

[you pick one]

Not for 1 hot second would I choose Stengle to be on our list or play in any game over Holmes.

You can make a strong argument for Holmes he's a good athlete and quick but Stengle has more football ability in his little finger.He's a rare commodity and I hope he follows Holmes and signes on again with a lengthy contract.

 

[CHAWKTS]

Jeez that's an ugly way to lose the big lad

Was it Judd who finished on a stretcher? Champions don’t always get to choose how they go - shame

I have seen a photo from this morning outside a hospital with Hawk in a full moon boot - up to knee

 

[kickazz]

Well said. The criticism of a 13-game player is just pathetic. He may not end up being an A grade star, but lets reassess after 50-70 games. He might not even make it, but lets give him the opportunity over the next 2-3 years to prove what he can do.

Like you, I saw quite a few positives. Young players are bound to make mistakes - he turned it over a bit but that is not abnormal for a 13-game player. His work ethic and committment cannot be questioned. He will give himself every chance to be a very good AFL player.

I cringe when I see people going after a 19-year-old with 13-games under the belt.

On one occasion at least I remember him really taking time to find a good option before turning it over. No good options came, not even by hand.

Sometimes teammates can make it easier for the ball carrier - we are jogging and putting in timid leads atm.

 

[kickazz]

I hope so. Ill be devastated if that is how he finishes up. He deserves a farewell game and we would love the opportunity to celebrate and farewell a great champion.

Surely the last round against the Eagles.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

I’ve only caught a couple of VFL games but when on the wing he looked at least to be the kind of winger who wins his own ball and a few clearances, not as purely a receiver as an Isaac Smith? So not the entire answer but potentially part of it. Surely close to next in line.

Yeah strikes me as a Menegola type winger but I don't think that's a position we need to add.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Agree, how does Bews return to AFL? Seems good enough in VFL? Or another case of playing younger guys, who still are not selected?

He doesn't

 

[cats_09]

Yes, Dahlhaus found some form late in the season after struggling earlier. I give him credit for that. He gave his all in the VFL too.

I can also remember a couple of the senior players talking during the finals series and giving full credit to Higgins, in that he accepted he wasn't going to break back into the senior side, but he continued to turn up to the club every day & give it his all at every training session, VFL match etc

There was even a comment about Higgins that during the finals series when the team was going through match sim, he would adjust his game to be more the style of our next opponent, so if matching up on Dangerfield or Selwood, he'd try to play like their next potential opponent


If Higgins came to us 5-years earlier, as fans we definitely would have got to see more from him and never know how he may have helped us on the field. But you listen to those who played alongside him for just a couple of seasons and you can understand why he's held in the regard he is and then got a match day job with us where he sits on the bench

 

[D BRIDGE]

You can make a strong argument for Holmes he's a good athlete and quick but Stengle has more football ability in his little finger.He's a rare commodity and I hope he follows Holmes and signes on again with a lengthy contract.

Stengle is a very good forward pocket for sure.

Still... no chance I'm taking him over Holmes.

The little finger comment is a slap in the face to Holmes who will probably win our BnF this year... as a 21 year old.

Holmes was drafted the same year as O Henry, Bruhn and Neale + he hardly even played the game as a kid.

He is the rare commodity in my eyes... not a 2 goal a game forward pocket like Stengle (as good as he is).

 

[cats_09]

Was it Judd who finished on a stretcher? Champions don’t always get to choose how they go - shame

I have seen a photo from this morning outside a hospital with Hawk in a full moon boot - up to knee

The last time Judd walked off a footy field post-match, he was holding a Geelong guernsey




A week later he left the field like this

 

[foxdog50]

Do we have the worst midfield in the comp?

We would have to be top 4

 

[PzBlinky]

Menzel was the most gifted guy at the club but he was scared of injuring his knees after multiple knee reconstructions. Tackling was a tradeoff for him, he could only run in straight lines.

Yeah, I don't blame him in the slightest with his running. Incredible he was that good that he was even able to have any sort of career after 4 knee recos. Still remember his first game back and being our best player in a team that got done by the Pies (back in 15?).

 

[Goggin Our Best]

On Hawkins, I did notice at one point in the game he actually launched up off the ground for a pack mark attempt. Haven't seen this is close to a decade I recon.

I wonder if that contributed to his foot injury ultimately?

He has been a fantastic player for Geel for a long period of time

However this season he has been a liability , to such an extent that Geel are playing one man short

There was a good example in the 3rd qtr last night , Bowes ( who had a shocking game and again raises doubts , but that is another debate ) won the ball in a centre clearance and kicked it long , good drop punt 55 metres there was nothing wrong with the kick . There was Hawkins ( who cant move and cant all season ) and Cameron , and 2 Carlton defenders , and the 2 Carlton blokes said we will wax this , which one of us wants to take the mark , and one of them did

That is Geel to a tee this year , if they kick the ball in long , neither of the 2 key forwards can take a nice strong o/head mark

 

[foxdog50]

Do we have the worst midfield in the comp?

Been looking at
1- Adelaide
2 - Geelong
3- Hawthorn ( but they have a huge upside to there team, young and heap of potential )
4 - St Kilda ( if they didn't have Marshall and Steel they would be 1st
So I'd say we have the 2nd worst in my view

 

[foxdog50]

Where is Cursed Cat - probably too disgusted to devote time to usually incisive analysis.

Where is Turbocat? I don't think iv seen him forweeks

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We got bashed up at clearances all over the ground and yes our skills under pressure were garbage but a player who has spent 90% of his time as a small forward this year ain’t going to fix shit. Unless you drop a forward I can’t see what he can add. The only forward who looked threatening last night was Jezza and we still kicked 75 points.

Should he be playing more as mid? Probably, but let’s see what he can do in that position in the VFL before thinking he can do it at a higher level.

What you think and what he has shown are 2 completely different things.

This year he has shown he is a decent small forward. Hasn’t shown anything as a midfielder. That’s mostly down to the fact he hasn’t played midfield minutes in the VFL, but thinking he can come straight into the seniors and make a difference off the bat is fanciful.

Do I think he deserves more games in the seniors? Yes.
Will he help us win clearances and be a contested ball winner? No.

We are getting slaughtered and bashed up at the source and everything is falling apart from there. Defenders have lost confidence, the forward line is dysfunctional, and a small outside forward, on exposed form this year, isn’t going to make much of an impression.

Try him as a VFL midfielder by all means, but let’s see what some of our VFL mids can add (Stevens, Clohesy, Knevitt, Hardie, Conway) before throwing Mannagh in the deep end as an AFL midfielder.

I get where you are coming from but to me there's some conflated logic here.

1. Every club mannagh has played for in the last 5 years where hes played and what he's done has indicated he's a small midfielder. He didnt suddenly change from that into a small forward just because Geelong drafted him.
Now if you're saying someone on the coaching staff thinks hes a small fwd not a mid and therefore won't pick him due to structure that could well be true. But it's incorrect to say what he's shown is as a small forward, most of what he's shown is as a mid. And he's actually good at winning midfield ball. People forget up until this year Mannagh has spent 90 % of his time as a mid not a forward, and has shown form.

2. Secondly if that were the case i'd argue the coaches were being too rigid. Last time i checked richmond won 3 flags with about 4 small forwards. There's no rule that says we couldnt pick an extra small. Smart sides pick their best 22 and then structure the gameplan around what they have. They dont leave better players in the reserves and pick worse non afl standard players in the 22 just because 'structure' (ruck is the only position where that could be justified due to clubs never playing more than 2 but that doesnt apply here).

3. I agree the midfield source is a massive issue but solving a forward line issue by changing other personnel (including mannagh) doesnt preclude that, they arent mutually exclusive issues.

4. The solutions to the midfield are harder to find.
For eg stevens is a big bodied mid but I doubt his endurance is at afl standard yet (and its hard to have an inside mid as sub)
Clohesy deserves a game to reward form but he isnt a big mid he's a smaller one like clark and mannagh, so you can't say he solves that problem).
Hardie is worth a go I agree but he isnt as good by foot as Mannagh or doesnt impact the scoreboard as much.
Knevitt should be played because he was developing well last year and we should continue that but he's not physically developed enough to be a big inside mid yet.

Ie you've identified the problem correctly but I don't think the immediate solution to the 'big clearance midfielder' is on our list yet, it's a problem we need to solve in the offseason.
Equally there's no immediate solution to the ruck issue because conway isnt quite ready and stanley and blitz are cooked.
There probably isnt an immediate solution to the hawkins replacement issue (depending on how you rate neale) yet either.

Whereas the reason why people are getting so frustrated with mannagh not being picked is we have another problem with atrocious disposal between the arcs by foot-we have a player dominating vfl who has that skill and is ready and we don't pick him. Why not actually solve the one problem you can solve?

I don't know why Corrigan hasnt tried mannagh in that role yet and I agree it would be better if he had this year. I'm not sure if we will try that but if we dont the next afl club he's at next year will.

 

[Whiskers]

Surely the last round against the Eagles.

If we need to win to make 8th, he won’t play.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Geelong have somewhat dudded Mannagh IMO.

If we didn't draft him, he'd most likely be playing AFL week in, week out for the other team that drafted/wanted him.

Sure... we gave him his first chance on an AFL list and we owe him nothing... but I just don't love the way we have gone about it with him.

We bring in and play him almost as an undersized FF in the VFL.

We are not developing and progressing his game at all.

Mannagh would be a tad dirty on being with us and not elsewhere atm.

Drafting him with such a usable pick and using him the way we are makes almost zero sense to me.

If we had him working on his midfield game in the VFL, i'd understand it... but forward pocket... nahhh.

If we don't think he is good enough... it's a dub pick.
If we don't have a spot for him... it's a dub pick.

You don't draft a 26 year old and plonk them in a position you already have covered in the VFL.

Sadly... it's a dud pick and Mannagh would be playing if he went to a different club.

I feel for the guy... He waited so long for his shot and we don't wanna play him (I'm sure some other clubs do).

I don't disagree with that.

To me the truth can only be
either a) the list management team see him as a mid (and drafted him as such given our massive gap in mid aged mids) but the coaches only see him as a small forward and they wont pick more than 3 of them.
or b) the list management team felt one of the three smalls was going (probably stengle) and they drafted him as insurance (still p36 is a lot to pay for insurance).

I do agree with the last sentence, we know other clubs were keen with the next few picks after where we took him-i'd be surprised if they aren't in his agent's ear already.

 

[CHAWKTS]

18 months ago where was TDK? Well he played 4 VFL games in late 2022 and early 2023.

Their careers have progressed almost identically to now. Prodigious talent shown early then fall in a heap with bad form around 22-23. TDK has come out the other side a star. Hopefully SDK can do the same.

Great post

Think Hawkins followed a similar cycle early? As did Petraca as a midfielder if I remember.

 

[CHAWKTS]

Yes, Higgins was injured a lot that year, but I’m sure you recall there were complaints on here about him getting any games at all that year.

He was clearly past his best and probably carrying chronic injuries.

And we had massive amount of injures early in 2022. After the bye on the winning streak he and Dal were purely used for management and back up

Both (in particular Dal) showed great leadership in the vfl

 

[kickazz]

If we need to win to make 8th, he won’t play.

Geez the thought of starting 7 zip then scraping into eighth - not sure that's a final I want to watch!

 

[Footy Smarts]

When talking about Mannagh's draft pick remember last year's draft was historically thin. A recruiter likened pick 40 last year to a rookie pick most years. After Mannagh we took 2 guys not even playing state league regularly to show what we thought of the talent who came through the typical pathways.