No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #13 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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DangerousD said:
This is spot on but raises concerns with me in regards to how it affected the appointment of Voss?

When Teague was moved on I remember the club making several statements about not appointing a rookie coach again, this essentially removed 3/4 of the candidates.

It was like we were so burnt by the previous two, that we wanted something safer, not sure it was the right move but that’s how I read it.
Click to expand...

People like to simplify an equation down to team goes 'well' (whatever that yardstick is) = good coach or vica versa. I dont think it is that easy really...

I think a head coach is only as good as the list he has, and then second to that, only as good he can get the best out of that list. Both of these take time. Carlton hasn't been known to give time to coaches.

I think the mess started with sacking Ratten ...and it has taken toll Voss's appointment to get a list back to similar if not better capabilities.

Getting ALL the pieces in place and humming is no mean feat with so many moving parts at a football club - pretty obvious (for example) that injury management has been subpar, that list balance is only starting to get there, that team profile experience is now good ...that profitability is there, that some form of continuity has been established..

I think Voss is under a lot of pressure now after the team ( probably) outperforming in 2023 to (understandably but still disappointingly) underperforming in 2024.

You need a lot of luck to beat the AFL's stacking the deck in favour of franchises to do better than make prelims.

As for Voss right now (IMO) the elimination final was a disaster, not the expected result but more the manner - he should have run with the fittest team available - not a team stacked with so many only 70% ready to play. The gamble reflected poorly on him - better to have lost with an obviously mismatched bunch of kids on deck.

- (hopefully) everyone has learned a few lessons from that.

Can't really comment on alternative coach choices at teh time of Voss appointment...I was ok with Lyon as a potential appointment only because I knew he would get Carlton to play finals most years - but given the inuuries Voss has had to deal with for 3 years now- maybe Lyon couldn't have done any better - as for teh Collingwodo bloke- lets see how well he does when he has only Nick Daicos carrying teh whole team in a year or two from now.

there are a few coaching right now - I wouldn't want to see anywhere near Carlton.

Hats off to Richmond IMO - backing their coach and totally dismantling their list to get the most they can out of the less compromised draft until another franchise gets to come in...
 
DangerousD said:
This is spot on but raises concerns with me in regards to how it affected the appointment of Voss?

When Teague was moved on I remember the club making several statements about not appointing a rookie coach again, this essentially removed 3/4 of the candidates.

It was like we were so burnt by the previous two, that we wanted something safer, not sure it was the right move but that’s how I read it.
Click to expand...
My concerns are a little different.

Lachie Henderson and Billy Gowers both flagged that, at Carlton, footy was pressure. Coaches were terrific and supportive but were entirely too... driving, forcing you to do things. Everything about the place was pressure, and it forced you to put pressure on yourself, second guess yourself; am I working hard enough, trying enough, doing enough? Burnt them both out a bit; Gowers has been pretty open about how upon leaving he rediscovered his love of footy, and it lead to his best footy, and Henderson also cited Geelong's much more relaxed, more downtime approach. Can't remember Tuohy saying something similar, but that story about Bolts flags some pretty alarming stuff to me; which is a bit weird really, because to my knowledge teaching is about manipulating you into wanting to do the thing that improves you rather than chasing you up to do something you don't want to do in the first place.

At Brisbane, Voss had real problems between their leadership group - featuring Tom Rockliff, IIRC - being entirely too forceful towards team and group standards, with it putting players offside. This is cited as one of the reasons the Go Home 5 left Brisbane; outside the 8, talented youth but a divided playing group leading to a whole heap of want-aways.

This hasn't materialised at Carlton - as far as we're aware, every player who has left would've been happy to stay - but it's now a pattern between coaches and the footy department: we put pressure on everyone.

People under pressure make mistakes.
 
Gethelred said:
My concerns are a little different.

Lachie Henderson and Billy Gowers both flagged that, at Carlton, footy was pressure. Coaches were terrific and supportive but were entirely too... driving, forcing you to do things. Everything about the place was pressure, and it forced you to put pressure on yourself, second guess yourself; am I working hard enough, trying enough, doing enough? Burnt them both out a bit; Gowers has been pretty open about how upon leaving he rediscovered his love of footy, and it lead to his best footy, and Henderson also cited Geelong's much more relaxed, more downtime approach. Can't remember Tuohy saying something similar, but that story about Bolts flags some pretty alarming stuff to me; which is a bit weird really, because to my knowledge teaching is about manipulating you into wanting to do the thing that improves you rather than chasing you up to do something you don't want to do in the first place.

At Brisbane, Voss had real problems between their leadership group - featuring Tom Rockliff, IIRC - being entirely too forceful towards team and group standards, with it putting players offside. This is cited as one of the reasons the Go Home 5 left Brisbane; outside the 8, talented youth but a divided playing group leading to a whole heap of want-aways.

This hasn't materialised at Carlton - as far as we're aware, every player who has left would've been happy to stay - but it's now a pattern between coaches and the footy department: we put pressure on everyone.

People under pressure make mistakes.
Click to expand...
Good post.

Remember this was a big thing for David Parkin too. He was adamant that his players had interests outside the club - particularly education. Albeit that this was in a time of semi-professionalism, but the same principle applies.
 

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Gethelred said:
My concerns are a little different.

Lachie Henderson and Billy Gowers both flagged that, at Carlton, footy was pressure. Coaches were terrific and supportive but were entirely too... driving, forcing you to do things. Everything about the place was pressure, and it forced you to put pressure on yourself, second guess yourself; am I working hard enough, trying enough, doing enough? Burnt them both out a bit; Gowers has been pretty open about how upon leaving he rediscovered his love of footy, and it lead to his best footy, and Henderson also cited Geelong's much more relaxed, more downtime approach. Can't remember Tuohy saying something similar, but that story about Bolts flags some pretty alarming stuff to me; which is a bit weird really, because to my knowledge teaching is about manipulating you into wanting to do the thing that improves you rather than chasing you up to do something you don't want to do in the first place.

At Brisbane, Voss had real problems between their leadership group - featuring Tom Rockliff, IIRC - being entirely too forceful towards team and group standards, with it putting players offside. This is cited as one of the reasons the Go Home 5 left Brisbane; outside the 8, talented youth but a divided playing group leading to a whole heap of want-aways.

This hasn't materialised at Carlton - as far as we're aware, every player who has left would've been happy to stay - but it's now a pattern between coaches and the footy department: we put pressure on everyone.

People under pressure make mistakes.
Click to expand...
I agree with this and what JAB responded to my post as well but I see this and what JAB said as being seperate to what I thought.

I’m not saying we chose the wrong coach or I wish we’d chosen someone else, I just wish we would have been open to all applicants and chosen the best candidate, instead of going in to a process saying we are not looking for a rookie coach.

I do however though find myself a little worried that only one coach in 34 years has won a premiership at a 2nd club, if they hadn’t won one previously.
 
Styxx said:
Didn't he end up ill? Or was it another coach from that period.

Pretty sure Stewart pushed Walls out the door though
Click to expand...
Stewart supposedly had a run in with the law for doing something in the city centre that he shouldn't have (but was supposedly charged iunder a different name) and promptly resigned after about 3 games in charge.
 
DangerousD said:
I agree with this and what JAB responded to my post as well but I see this and what JAB said as being seperate to what I thought.

I’m not saying we chose the wrong coach or I wish we’d chosen someone else, I just wish we would have been open to all applicants and chosen the best candidate, instead of going in to a process saying we are not looking for a rookie coach.

I do however though find myself a little worried that only one coach in 34 years has won a premiership at a 2nd club, if they hadn’t won one previously.
Click to expand...
AFL leadership role conservatism leads to self fulfilling prophesies.
 
RPCB said:
I think it should be a rule on here that a player/former players nickname should be followed by “(His name in here)”. Who is Sellers again? :p
Click to expand...

Trainer Leo Brooks dubbed Maclure "Sellers" because Mark used to bumble his way around Princes Park like Peter Sellers' famous character, Inspector Clouseau, in the popular Pink Panther movie series

Think his dog was called Sellers too
 
Gethelred said:
My concerns are a little different.

Lachie Henderson and Billy Gowers both flagged that, at Carlton, footy was pressure. Coaches were terrific and supportive but were entirely too... driving, forcing you to do things. Everything about the place was pressure, and it forced you to put pressure on yourself, second guess yourself; am I working hard enough, trying enough, doing enough? Burnt them both out a bit; Gowers has been pretty open about how upon leaving he rediscovered his love of footy, and it lead to his best footy, and Henderson also cited Geelong's much more relaxed, more downtime approach. Can't remember Tuohy saying something similar, but that story about Bolts flags some pretty alarming stuff to me; which is a bit weird really, because to my knowledge teaching is about manipulating you into wanting to do the thing that improves you rather than chasing you up to do something you don't want to do in the first place.

At Brisbane, Voss had real problems between their leadership group - featuring Tom Rockliff, IIRC - being entirely too forceful towards team and group standards, with it putting players offside. This is cited as one of the reasons the Go Home 5 left Brisbane; outside the 8, talented youth but a divided playing group leading to a whole heap of want-aways.

This hasn't materialised at Carlton - as far as we're aware, every player who has left would've been happy to stay - but it's now a pattern between coaches and the footy department: we put pressure on everyone.

People under pressure make mistakes.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that we as supporters also put immense pressure on coaches, players, administration. We may have been down for a number of decades but our expectations have not changed. We are a big club and with that there is greater focus, attention and pressure
 

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No Oppo Supporters General AFL Discussion #13 - Carlton Posters ONLY!

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