List Mgmt. Glenn Luff - Has resigned as list manager

[Nutjob]

And? It's irrelevant here.

This is the Luff thread, not Phillips who looks good albeit unlucky health wise.

Back to our list management.

Why we have Young, Atu and Walker playing 1sts in defense as we "have no-one else" - it's an indictment on the club.

How is it irrelevant?

You said ‘no one is saying we should have taken McDonald.’ There is a whole thread with people saying we should have taken McDonald.

Is the North board removed from the rest of the world?


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[Nordland]

Embarrassingly shithouse trade and that smug prick is just rubbing our faces in it. Spineless decision and this is us being laughed at.

 

[Shinboner1]

Zondor Is that ITK news about Hore or just speculation?

 

[WesternRoo]

From an article in 2019 - "Prior to joining North, Luff worked at Champion Data for 20 years, breaking down game data to identify trends, playing styles and team tendencies".

Initially joined as 'Head of Analysis' for 12 months then got the List Manager role.

Now I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure most list managers spend some time in the actual list management team first, as a recruiter for example, before being promoted to List Manager. He's really come from left field with virtually no experience in that department. No experience at an actual AFL footy club prior to joining North yet gets such an important role 1 year in.

I'm not a North supporter but a bit of a footy nut so here are just a few recent decisions I query:

• Moving Brown on - Now I know he had a down year (some excuses with injury and personal tragedy though) and wanted a relatively long-term deal on decent coin...but the guy seemed pretty loyal to North and had kicked 60+ goals 3 years in a row despite spending time in the ruck. One of North's best players and a must-keep in my opinion. Would have helped the team be more competitive and helped Larkey in particular. Some might scoff at the money he wanted, but when the club is throwing money away at guys like Aidan Corr, I know which player I'd prefer. Also not a great look to the rest of the playing group that a loyal, top player got turfed. Didn't even get a good return for him, gave him away for unders.
• 5 year deal for McDonald - He did finish that season winning the B&F and may have been seen as the captain in waiting. But I think most would agree the contract was overkill for a guy like McDonald. Outside that one great season he's only been a 'good' player, not a star. Not doing a whole lot currently. Stuck with the contract until 2026 now.
• 2 year deal for Ziebell - Maybe understandable? Captain and at 30 yrs old, 2 years isn't awful. The club certainly needed some mature leadership...though not sure he's delivering his end of the bargain.
• Delisting Dumont - Not sure about this one. I know he had injuries etc and declined as a player, but he's actually been doing OK for Port this year...missed the North game due to COVID. A former vice-captain, may have been worth keeping, possibly at the expense of a different senior player.
• CCJ trade - Definitely overpaid given the strong position North were in at the trade table. CCJ wasn't even in Richmond's best 22, making giving up a 2nd round pick overs. The fact North now have the selection issue of Goldy/Xerri/CCJ is also pretty poor.
• Corr contract - Never thought much of him at GWS, he's really nothing special basically a role player. Don't hate getting him as he was a FA and North needed some mature bodies, but the contract is certainly overs.
• Drafting Phillips over Logan McDonald - Now, I'm no junior footy watcher. Maybe this will turn out to be the right call, it's early days. But jeez you'd want Phillips to be a much better footy player than McDonald IMO to pick him at #3 when McDonald went the pick after. I am basing this on the fact that North had no key forwards except Larkey, they are typically hard to get, the best are usually high draft picks and they take longer to develop so you want to get them in early in a rebuild. Had a golden opportunity to draft one. North had also already invested in midfield talent with guys like Simpkin/LDU/Thomas. Also took Powell and JHF later but they came after...still, that is a lot of high draft picks used for one area of the ground at the expense of all others.
• General lack of KPPS - This one is a no brainer. To have basically 1 key forward (2 with Comden) and 2 key defenders on a list in total is just ridiculous. Ties a bit into my point above in not drafting McDonald, but needed to get more in somehow. Should have at least 3-4 of each.

Pretty much spot on apart from Phillips....at the moment.

I see him as a bit of a Cunnington slow burn early, but will basically be our Joel Selwood. I hope anyway.

McDonald is a talent, but isn't playing week in week out himself yet.

We need to revisit this in 2025 when both players are approaching their peak.

 

[Roosurgence]

Pretty much spot on apart from Phillips....at the moment.

I see him as a bit of a Cunnington slow burn early, but will basically be our Joel Selwood. I hope anyway.

McDonald is a talent, but isn't playing week in week out himself yet.

We need to revisit this in 2025 when both players are approaching their peak.

I don’t think anyone is questioning Phillips potential to be a great player, it’s questioning the rationale of passing over a key forward for a midfielder, when that position on your list is a big hole.

It’s done now and I hope Phillips goes on to have a great career, but there is nothing wrong with questioning the logic behind the List Management decision itself and not the player.

We all know that Key Position players are a lot harder to come by than midfielders, so unless they rated Phillips way in front of McDonald, it can be looked at as a big gamble, not to fill that hole in your list.

I think people need to take the players names out of it and look at the decisions from a list build perspective.

 

[WesternRoo]

I don’t think anyone is questioning Phillips potential to be a great player, it’s questioning the rationale of passing over a key forward for a midfielder, when that position on your list is a big hole.

It’s done now and I hope Phillips goes on to have a great career, but there is nothing wrong with questioning the logic behind the List Management decision itself and not the player.

We all know that Key Position players are a lot harder to come by than midfielders, so unless they rated Phillips way in front of McDonald, it can be looked at as a big gamble, not to fill that hole in your list.

I think people need to take the players names out of it and look at the decisions from a list build perspective.

I don’t think anyone is questioning Phillips potential to be a great player, it’s questioning the rationale of passing over a key forward for a midfielder, when that position on your list is a big hole.

It’s done now and I hope Phillips goes on to have a great career, but there is nothing wrong with questioning the logic behind the List Management decision itself and not the player.

We all know that Key Position players are a lot harder to come by than midfielders, so unless they rated Phillips way in front of McDonald, it can be looked at as a big gamble, not to fill that hole in your list.

I think people need to take the players names out of it and look at the decisions from a list build perspective.

If McDonald was with us, he would be languishing in the VFL sitting out games sore or injured. He would have played 6 senior games for a modest return (in our structure and forward line) and we would be saying he is a bust.

If Phillips was at Sydney, he probably would have won the rising star last year.

 

[Roosurgence]

If McDonald was with us, he would be languishing in the VFL sitting out games sore or injured. He would have played 6 senior games for a modest return (in our structure and forward line) and we would be saying he is a bust.

If Phillips was at Sydney, he probably would have won the rising star last year.

I said take the individual players out of the equation and look at it from a list build perspective.

Ask yourself one question……. going forward what will be more important to this club from a list perspective, an inside midfielder or a key forward to partner with Larkey?

People need to look past the names and look at it from the point of view of preparing a list to win you a Premiership.

My whole point is the current List Management Team is taking a massive gamble on either picking up a talented key forward (who will make it) in this years draft or Comben coming good?

Even if they do manage to fill that key forward hole, there is also still the question of where is the depth?

You do know you can’t play a game of chess with just the pawn pieces, unless you are playing checkers?

 

[7577969923]

I said take the individual players out of the equation and look at it from a list build perspective.

Ask yourself one question……. going forward what will be more important to this club from a list perspective, an inside midfielder or a key forward to partner with Larkey?

People need to look past the names and look at it from the point of view of preparing a list to win you a Premiership.

My whole point is the current List Management Team is taking a massive gamble on either picking up a talented key forward (who will make it) in this years draft or Comben coming good?

Even if they do manage to fill that key forward hole, there is also still the question of where is the depth?

You do know you can’t play a game of chess with just the pawn pieces, unless you are playing checkers?

We could have taken Jackson Callow ahead of Charlie Hamm in the midseason draft last year. He may not be a world-beater but he is still on an AFL list at Hawthorn and has made a debut. An extra 195cm option on the list right now would be extremely valuable.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

We could have taken Jackson Callow ahead of Charlie Hamm in the midseason draft last year. He may not be a world-beater but he is still on an AFL list at Hawthorn and has made a debut. An extra 195cm option on the list right now would be extremely valuable.

For the final time, we have Matt McGuinnes and he had a growth spurt so we’re all set.

 

[Roosurgence]

We could have taken Jackson Callow ahead of Charlie Hamm in the midseason draft last year. He may not be a world-beater but he is still on an AFL list at Hawthorn and has made a debut. An extra 195cm option on the list right now would be extremely valuable.

And that is my whole point. Exactly what is Luff doing in his role as List Manager to fill you with confidence that he has any clue to build a list?

The total lack of key position players, let alone any semblance of depth, is pretty alarming when you are attempting to build a list from pretty much ground zero.

 

[The acurate one]

How is it irrelevant?

You said ‘no one is saying we should have taken McDonald.’ There is a whole thread with people saying we should have taken McDonald.

Is the North board removed from the rest of the world?


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McDonalds aint setting the world on fire, he's kicked five goals in his last 10 games. For the most part I think our recruiting has been fine under Luffs.

I actually don't have a problem with him, yes our Mahony pick is a bit of a head scratcher but oh well. We can't really isolate a particular pick without taking into consideration the entire body of work.
And our lack of another KPD is causing alarm on here, but again who should we have drafted? Our plan was build the midfield first and I for one am just happy we have a plan.

Phillips has had an awful run of bad luck, not sure that is anyone's fault. Phillips is an accumulator and the type we desperately need.

So yeah I'm not anti Luffs , cause well I have seen as we all have how bad we were at this caper.

 

[7577969923]

And that is my whole point. Exactly what is Luff doing in his role as List Manager to fill you with confidence that he has any clue to build a list?

The total lack of key position players, let alone any semblance of depth, is pretty alarming when you are attempting to build a list from pretty much ground zero.

I think we have built plenty of depth in the midfield and flanks. Guys like Goater, Bergman etc all look great prospects but will take 2 years.

Agree that we have missed a couple of opportunities to pick up genuine KP prospects and that is definitely hurting us. There is a lot of pressure in this offseason to draft or trade two more KPPs.

I don't understand why, for example, we were so keen on McPherson from the Suns who seems a fringe player at best, and we showed no apparent interest in Brody, let alone someone like Alir Alir. A backline of BMac and Alir would have been something to really build around.

I guess one line of thinking may be that if you look at the best teams around the league the likes of May, Lever, Alir, McGovern, Howard, Keath are all at second clubs.

 

[ferball]

I said take the individual players out of the equation and look at it from a list build perspective.

Ask yourself one question……. going forward what will be more important to this club from a list perspective, an inside midfielder or a key forward to partner with Larkey?

Going forward from when? Now or the end of 2020?

At the end of 2020 the midfielder list was JY, Jed, LDU, Cunners, Frog, Hall, maybe JZ. And Cunners had missed the whole season with a back injury. He might not ever play again. Forgot Dom Tyson. oops. Four proper mids not counting Froggy who usually played on the wing and possibly was making "I want out" noises after the hub.

Not much point having key forwards if there is no one to get the ball to them.

We could have taken Logan McDonald. Might have even won us a couple more games last year. So then we could have him and someone else would have taken Phillips, we could have missed Powell and then what? We were no guarantee to get JHF. Where does that leave our midfield? Or the forward line who would have even less effective delivery than they get now.

My whole point is the current List Management Team is taking a massive gamble on either picking up a talented key forward (who will make it) in this years draft or Comben coming good?

Wouldn't that be the same gamble with Logan McDonald? He could still turn out to be a spud - more Josh Bruce than Jeremy Cameron. Then we're still looking for a partner for Larkey and we have no midfield! McDonald was the fourth tall to go in that draft. How often is the fourth tall in a draft any good? (Honestly have no idea, but three big blokes were picked up before him.) Finally, Jacob Edwards could end up a better forward in five years. So could Comben.

And in 2024 we're sitting here saying: "Why did we waste pick three on our fourth best tall forward??!!? "

 

[Le Grille]

I was all in on McDonald in the draft, and was surprised but not disappointed we took Will.

I think at the time he was touted ready to go which hasn’t eventuated. I think he will be fine, skills wise he’s probably one of our best. We just got to restore his health then build the tank up.

I sincerely hope we do a 2006/7 laidleyesque boot camp fitness blitz from the start of pre season.

It’s frustrating that our premium draftees (Horne excluded) are taking ages to hit their straps

 

[Roosurgence]

Going forward from when? Now or the end of 2020?

At the end of 2020 the midfielder list was JY, Jed, LDU, Cunners, Frog, Hall, maybe JZ. And Cunners had missed the whole season with a back injury. He might not ever play again. Forgot Dom Tyson. oops. Four proper mids not counting Froggy who usually played on the wing and possibly was making "I want out" noises after the hub.

Not much point having key forwards if there is no one to get the ball to them.

We could have taken Logan McDonald. Might have even won us a couple more games last year. So then we could have him and someone else would have taken Phillips, we could have missed Powell and then what? We were no guarantee to get JHF. Where does that leave our midfield? Or the forward line who would have even less effective delivery than they get now.




Wouldn't that be the same gamble with Logan McDonald? He could still turn out to be a spud - more Josh Bruce than Jeremy Cameron. Then we're still looking for a partner for Larkey and we have no midfield! McDonald was the fourth tall to go in that draft. How often is the fourth tall in a draft any good? (Honestly have no idea, but three big blokes were picked up before him.) Finally, Jacob Edwards could end up a better forward in five years. So could Comben.

And in 2024 we're sitting here saying: "Why did we waste pick three on our fourth best tall forward??!!? "

I said take the player themselves out of the equation and think of it as the position itself.

Let’s simplify it. If you have a key forward and a midfielder that are rated closely on Draft Night and you have a hole in your list the size of the Grand Canyon in KPF stocks, then who do you take?

I’m not saying that McDonald will be a better player than Phillips, I am questioning the list build itself. Which to me seems a very valid question when you look at what we have in key position stocks. Even if the list was fully fit, we are low of key position players.

This isn’t a Phillips over McDonald argument, the argument is so we have the right people in place at the club to build an AFL list?

All we are seeing at the moment is the attempt to build a midfield while totally ignoring all other parts of the ground.

 

[Harris 10]

What was the actual trade in the end and who did we select with the picks we got?

 

[ferball]

We could have taken Jackson Callow ahead of Charlie Hamm in the midseason draft last year. He may not be a world-beater but he is still on an AFL list at Hawthorn and has made a debut. An extra 195cm option on the list right now would be extremely valuable.

We could also have taken Leek Aleer or Sam Skinner. And be rapt or spewing... We talked about Callow and even had videos posted, he was okay but he wasn't great.

Ultimately is the long term value of Tom Lynch coaching worth more than KPD depth at this point in our rebuild? This is comes down to. And we still don't know the future .,.. we could have a long term plan that involves targeting KPDs this year, we still don't know how McGuiness will turn out. Next years pre season could see us with Busslinger, McGuiness and one of El Nour or another state league KPD from mid year all making claims for a spot in the side.

For the last decade our five best "key' backman were (imo) Taz, Hunter, Spud, Maj (Gets in despite small sample size because of very high quality samples,) and Ben Mckay- the only one was drafted as a backman. And according to Tef (who we can see was obviously right about this with hindsight) he was ready for seniors in 2018. Playing with Taz and Thompson. 2018 was his third season.

Take all that into account and was a depth KPD worth taking last year? IMO only if we really rated one.

 

[Roosurgence]

What was the actual trade in the end and who did we select with the picks we got?

The Trade itself was:

NM: CCJ, 42, 47 and a future 4th Rounder

Richmond: Tarrant, future 2nd Rounder and 40

 

[Kanga Glory]

Just remember that Jon ‘back the truck up’ Ralph is a Richmond supporter and is know to backtrack quicker than * in a tackle .

 

[Harris 10]

The Trade itself was:

NM: CCJ, 42, 47 and a future 4th Rounder

Richmond: Tarrant, future 2nd Rounder and 40

So did 42 and 47 become Bergman and Curtis?

 

[blackshadow]

I said take the player themselves out of the equation and think of it as the position itself.

Let’s simplify it. If you have a key forward and a midfielder that are rated closely on Draft Night and you have a hole in your list the size of the Grand Canyon in KPF stocks, then who do you take?

I’m not saying that McDonald will be a better player than Phillips, I am questioning the list build itself. Which to me seems a very valid question when you look at what we have in key position stocks. Even if the list was fully fit, we are low of key position players.

This isn’t a Phillips over McDonald argument, the argument is so we have the right people in place at the club to build an AFL list?

All we are seeing at the moment is the attempt to build a midfield while totally ignoring all other parts of the ground.

Way to totally ignore the post by ferball.

But I'm not surprised.

 

[ferball]

Let’s simplify it. If you have a key forward and a midfielder that are rated closely on Draft Night and you have a hole in your list the size of the Grand Canyon in KPF stocks, then who do you take?

I already answered this.

What if you have a similar sized hole in your mid stocks and the KPF you have available is third best and the mid you have available is the best and you rate them a better player.

You have two list holes of equal importance to fill and you have one pick so you can only fill fill one. You take the best of the two players obviously because you want quality and the start of a rebuild gives you time to pick and choose not get whatever is available now.

I know you don't agree with the bolded bit but you are wrong about that so there we are.

Have you got links from the end of the 2020 season where you were saying we needed to build from the forward/back line or spine and criticising us for not taking McDonald on draft night? Cos if not this is what it looks like:

Now, after we've committed to this path of building from the midfield you are in a position where you can safely criticise that path and say we should have gone the other way knowing your position can never be tested and will always be free of criticism because it doesn't exist in the real world and its flaws aren't shown up by reality.

That's fine, boring and annoying sure cos its repetitive as ****, but you can post what you like however childish. And no doubt when this rebuild works and we win an unexpected flag in 2024 you'll be all "Yeah Nobes is great, list management was awesome, gee we're good," like the rest of us.

 

[Roosurgence]

Way to totally ignore the post by ferball.

But I'm not surprised.

Why am I not surprised to see you post something? Am I living rent free in your head?

I didn’t see a need to respond, is that an issue for you? Unlike you I don’t see the need to respond or quote a message for the sake of it.

You do realise how stupid you look when you quote a message where I was simply telling Harris10 what the deal was? I’m not sure what that has to do with Ferball at all?

 

[hilly]

You can't say 'if we rated McDonald/WP about the same' and then condemn the pick based on that assumption.

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[7577969923]

We could also have taken Leek Aleer or Sam Skinner. And be rapt or spewing... We talked about Callow and even had videos posted, he was okay but he wasn't great.

Ultimately is the long term value of Tom Lynch coaching worth more than KPD depth at this point in our rebuild? This is comes down to. And we still don't know the future .,.. we could have a long term plan that involves targeting KPDs this year, we still don't know how McGuiness will turn out. Next years pre season could see us with Busslinger, McGuiness and one of El Nour or another state league KPD from mid year all making claims for a spot in the side.

For the last decade our five best "key' backman were (imo) Taz, Hunter, Spud, Maj (Gets in despite small sample size because of very high quality samples,) and Ben Mckay- the only one was drafted as a backman. And according to Tef (who we can see was obviously right about this with hindsight) he was ready for seniors in 2018. Playing with Taz and Thompson. 2018 was his third season.

Take all that into account and was a depth KPD worth taking last year? IMO only if we really rated one.

I see exactly what you are saying although I still think we should have had at least one more KPP in the squad now. Was Charlie Hamm ever really rated. We are talking 2nd-round pick in a mid-season draft so these are speculative picks at best.

Agree with the point about guys not being drafted as backmen. I think Comben has all the athletic attributes to be a quality CHB if that is the greater need.