Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Mighty Lions]

No…that’s not what I’m saying at all, I’ve tried really hard to explain it to you but are either unwilling or unable to grasp the concepts here, believe whatever you want

Maybe I am not that smart.........please keep trying........I will get it sooner rather than later and I would like to understand.

I don't get the difference between me making an allegation (without being named) about someone that is just as damaging as what these guys have done and someone else talking heresay but saying the same thing. Is the difference it because they have officially made these allegations in the report and Abc & I just accuse someone in a pub with mates?

 

[western royboy]

Maybe I am not that smart.........please keep trying........I will get it sooner rather than later and I would like to understand.

I don't get the difference between me making an allegation (without being named) about someone that is just as damaging as what these guys have done and someone else talking heresay but saying the same thing. Is the difference it because they have officially made these allegations in the report and Abc & I just accuse someone in a pub with mates?

The people making the allegations are known, not by the public but by the people writing the report and articles and more than likely by the people that the allegations have been made against. Aspects of those allegations have been verified by 3rd parties. You could say anything you want about anyone, no media are going to give a rats unless you have some basis to your claims, or that someone may be able to verify it or that your claims might be considered newsworthy. They’ve got 3 from 3, you’re 0/3…get it?

 

[Mighty Lions]

The people making the allegations are known, not by the public but by the people writing the report and articles and more than likely by the people that the allegations have been made against. Aspects of those allegations have been verified by 3rd parties. You could say anything you want about anyone, no media are going to give a rats unless you have some basis to your claims, or that someone may be able to verify it or that your claims might be considered newsworthy. They’ve got 3 from 3, you’re 0/3…get it?

I get it but it's still flawed and totally & morally wrong.

 

[Davemonkey]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/media-trials-threaten-our-core-beliefs-on-justice/news-story/51ba5d9c55f5d16d41a3d4dd560ba18e

That's a bit rich coming from a Murdoch masthead.

 

[Sausages]

That's a bit rich coming from a Murdoch masthead.

Dave, their word for the day, written on the board by the editor with the BIG CHALK, was IRONY

 

[Gadzorks]

I get it but it's still flawed and totally & morally wrong.

It does, however the rules are made to protect the powerless from the powerful.

And in this instance the AFL and it's representatives are the powerful and the teenage draftees are the powerless.

Think of investigations into the peadophiles in churches. They got away with it for decades because the voice of the powerful church denied, denied, denied and said look at what we do for the community. Our people love us and know we wouldn't go anything wrong. And their congregations agreed and supported them.

Without the ability of journalists and fact seeking reports it'd likely still be going.

I don't know if Fagan has a case to answer to, but there is sufficient corroboration from different sources (thinking player manager and assistance coach) to make an investigation necessary.

 

[Sausages]

Yeah, I agree it's a trash situation, but my issues with that are earlier ITT and there's no value in me continuing to rage about it, it is what it is.

That being said, I'm astounded that the complainants seemingly wish to avoid any corroboration of their accusations and still remain amazed that NOBODY else has been able to come forward with clear supporting statements as to the veracity of the report. In their time at the club, the players made no friends, at all? Didn't send a text to a mate saying "**** me, these Hawthorn dudes are bad eggs" or the like? Apparently made no mention of these issues in regards the difficulties they faced in their lives following the incidents to a treating doctor or health care professional, despite claims advising of ongoing psych trauma?

I just want the floppin' truth ffs And I'm aware of the many ways truth is subjective - but when you are making heinous allegations, there's going to need to be some truth somewhere in your position.

I'm sorry, but the more I read about it, the more inclined I am towards it being pure fantasy, simply due to the lack of supporting, credible evidence. And the suggestion of pursuing legal avenues for damages seems incongruent with the earlier stated position of "not for the money".

 

[lioninthesand]

Yeah, I agree it's a trash situation, but my issues with that are earlier ITT and there's no value in me continuing to rage about it, it is what it is.

That being said, I'm astounded that the complainants seemingly wish to avoid any corroboration of their accusations and still remain amazed that NOBODY else has been able to come forward with clear supporting statements as to the veracity of the report. In their time at the club, the players made no friends, at all? Didn't send a text to a mate saying "* me, these Hawthorn dudes are bad eggs" or the like? Apparently made no mention of these issues in regards the difficulties they faced in their lives following the incidents to a treating doctor or health care professional, despite claims advising of ongoing psych trauma?

I just want the floppin' truth ffs And I'm aware of the many ways truth is subjective - but when you are making heinous allegations, there's going to need to be some truth somewhere in your position.

I'm sorry, but the more I read about it, the more inclined I am towards it being pure fantasy, simply due to the lack of supporting, credible evidence. And the suggestion of pursuing legal avenues for damages seems incongruent with the earlier stated position of "not for the money".

How do you know what supporting evidence there is for both sides? when was the evidence released?

Do you think a player from that time is just going to shoot from the hip in the media prior to fronting the investigation?

‘Yeah I knew all this stuff was going on but ignored it, infact, here is a text message from 8 years ago where an indigenous player alerted me to their horrible plight - I did nothing about it’

We won’t know what evidence there is, either way, until the investigation reveals it all.

 

[Sausages]

How do you know what supporting evidence there is for both sides? when was the evidence released?

Do you think a player from that time is just going to shoot from the hip in the media prior to fronting the investigation?

‘Yeah I knew all this stuff was going on but ignored it, infact, here is a text message from 8 years ago where an indigenous player alerted me to their horrible plight - I did nothing about it’

We won’t know what evidence there is, either way, until the investigation reveals it all.

I don't need supporting evidence from Fages atm, because he is presumed innocent. As far as evidence being released, there is none afaik, just statements/allegations.

No, they wouldn't shoot from the hip - they could however be covered beneath the same shroud of anonymity as the complainants though, surely.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/media-trials-threaten-our-core-beliefs-on-justice/news-story/51ba5d9c55f5d16d41a3d4dd560ba18e

Literally weeks after their Teacher's Pet podcast got someone thrown in the slammer

 

[lioninthesand]

I don't need supporting evidence from Fages atm, because he is presumed innocent. As far as evidence being released, there is none afaik, just statements/allegations.

No, they wouldn't shoot from the hip - they could however be covered beneath the same shroud of anonymity as the complainants though, surely.

You declared there is a lack of supporting evidence and questioned why other people haven’t come out with text messages etc to support their claims.

You then said that made you lean toward it all being a fantasy.

I just pointed out, we don’t know what supporting evidence there is - and - it is unlikely anyone is just going to step forward with extra supporting evidence (text messages etc), prior to the investigation.

 

[Sausages]

No, I understand your point lioninthesand

The image I have in my head is every AFL journo not focused on the trade stories, is furiously plugging away at every possible contact they have to get some further content. That could easily be a mental picture far removed from the reality

 

[McIvor]

Unless it's true and they have evidence. If they don't, this really does have defamation written all over it.

The only issue with evidence, which I have seen first hand in my role is somone claiming they made a note about workplace bahviour from 3 years prior, only following an investigation, it was established they wrote the note weeks prior to falsely substantuate their claims.

Unless there are time stamped emails or even text messages at the time of these incidents or calls to others that again made time stamped emails or text messages, I fail to see how on earth the accusers can substantiate their claims that leads to destroying peoples lives. That being said, I'm not saying what these accuseres didnt happen, but unless they've got good evidence, I fail to see how or why Fagan / Clarksons careers are finished.

I suspect blind "groundswell" support of the accuseres will be enough for most, inlcuding the ABC to unfarly cast doubt on some white fellas.

 

[mighty_lions]

Literally weeks after their Teacher's Pet podcast got someone thrown in the slammer

Poor take, the murder of Lynette Dawson and the disgraceful efforts of NSW police to even investigate it needed a podcast to bring it to light

 

[Mighty Lions]

It does, however the rules are made to protect the powerless from the powerful.

And in this instance the AFL and it's representatives are the powerful and the teenage draftees are the powerless.

Think of investigations into the peadophiles in churches. They got away with it for decades because the voice of the powerful church denied, denied, denied and said look at what we do for the community. Our people love us and know we wouldn't go anything wrong. And their congregations agreed and supported them.

Without the ability of journalists and fact seeking reports it'd likely still be going.

I don't know if Fagan has a case to answer to, but there is sufficient corroboration from different sources (thinking player manager and assistance coach) to make an investigation necessary.

What about the protecting the powerful who become vulnerable in many instances in situations similar to this? Just because they might be powerfrul doesn't mean they should have lesser rights and anyone else....... in this country anyways. Maybe they were powerless at one stage in their life and fought like f**k to be successful and powerful now.
Fagan might have a case to answer and if he does, he will pay the consequences...but until he is found in any way connected/gulity of doing anything wrong, he should not be stood down of suffer like he & his family are.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Poor take, the murder of Lynette Dawson and the disgraceful efforts of NSW police to even investigate it needed a podcast to bring it to light

You're almost there.

 

[mighty_lions]

You're almost there.

...

 

[mighty_lions]

You're almost there.

If you think there are similarities then you are delusional, they are completely different

 

[western royboy]

The only issue with evidence, which I have seen first hand in my role is somone claiming they made a note about workplace bahviour from 3 years prior, only following an investigation, it was established they wrote the note weeks prior to falsely substantuate their claims.

Unless there are time stamped emails or even text messages at the time of these incidents or calls to others that again made time stamped emails or text messages, I fail to see how on earth the accusers can substantiate their claims that leads to destroying peoples lives. That being said, I'm not saying what these accuseres didnt happen, but unless they've got good evidence, I fail to see how or why Fagan / Clarksons careers are finished.

I suspect blind "groundswell" support of the accuseres will be enough for most, inlcuding the ABC to unfarly cast doubt on some white fellas.

The last line is some of the best casual racism ever seen…this clearly is a story, there is a report detailing it the journalist and his employer have a right almost duty to report it. Don’t shoot the messenger deal with the allegations in an orderly fashion. Fagan and Clarkson have voluntarily stood down from their roles, no one forced them to. As to their futures it will depend upon the outcomes of the inquiries and potential legal claims that follow. As a general comment to some here, pull your ****ing heads in or try and get some empathy. This is a truly horrible situation for all parties, but lines like the last one are straight out of the redneck wonderland playbook.

 

[Stars align]

Independent of whatever level of subjective or objective truth exists in the stories told ...

- I feel for the ones who gave feedback to the internal review under the colour of anonymity who may get caught up in the whirlwind of controversy and legality. This is my story please let it be better for my brothers in the future.

- I do not feel for the ones who told their stories to a reporter even under colour of anonymity who will most certainly get caught up in said whirlwind as anything you say to a reporter is going to be sensationalised, sound-bited, and used to generate clicks, fame and reimbursement for the reporter.

- I totally feel for Clarkson and Fagan (no matter how guilty or innocent or misunderstood) for being on the rough end of the process.

- I worry for the ongoing plight of our aboriginal players as I suspect that the good that might have come out of the review will be counteracted by the fallout from the 'story' and from the now politicised investigation to come. Hopefully the greater awareness will lead to better interaction rather than segregation.

A simple question regardless of the outcome of the investigation will the number of First Nations kids getting drafted in the years going forward be more - less - or stay the same
If we see a drop in numbers will the AFL facilitate a quota system to keep the numbers at the current rate or to increase them

 

[McIvor]

This is a truly horrible situation for all parties, but lines like the last one are straight out of the redneck wonderland playbook.

No one is saying it isn't, but why is there a lack of sympathy for the accused on the assumption that the accusers say so - surely you aren't that niave that this sort of thing goes on all around the world and is often unsubstantiated to the massive detriment of people in Fagan's position and extending to those who have been accused of heinous sexual crimes when it wasn't even them, yet there names are mud, lives n ruins, friendships lost that don't return when their names aren't cleared. Personally, the same will likely happen either and there was no need smearing peoples names unless they had a crap-load of hard evidence, which I have my doubts.

 

[nup]

A simple question regardless of the outcome of the investigation will the number of First Nations kids getting drafted in the years going forward be more - less - or stay the same
If we see a drop in numbers will the AFL facilitate a quota system to keep the numbers at the current rate or to increase them

well you'd need to look back too, in case there are fluctuations over time already and factor that in, but it would be quite a negative analysis to support a quota system, which are not popular and questionnably effective.

 

[Clarkythelion]

I read you post and I dis agree.

If Fagan & Clarkson are found not to have done & said what the accusers have released, they will win along with all the lawyers...... and someone will lose a lot of $.

I'm with Mighty Lion on this. A court case will be the only way to clear their names but it will take time and that is the issue.

Mr Mighty Lions gave some cases - well here is another - take the Geoffrey Rush case - the biggest defamation case in Australia. Rebel Wilson's was initially but the payout reduced on appeal to some $600k but not as previously posted, was she left destitute and the winning of the case was and is still outstanding.

The original front page story about Rush carried the headline "King Leer" and detailed accusations from a 2015 Sydney Theatre Company production of King Lear. The paper printed the story 30th November 2017.

The first win in his case wasn't until April 11th 2019 then there we subsequent appeals and so on but all upheld the original decision and by July 2020 Rush had $2.7 million in damages from The Daily Telegraph.

So somewhere around 17 months before he was initially declared innocent of all allegations. If this Fagan/Clarkson case follows the same time frame, we need a new coach.

Magazines called Rebel Wilson a 'liar' in May 2015 - the decision the magazines were wrong came down 15th June 2017, that was not disputed they made it all up, although the dispute over how much she would eventually get paid went on.

About 2 years to she was proven right - again we need a new coach if waiting the outcome of a court decision.

Both Rush and Wilson went about their lives and acting careers during the cases although their arguments on lost income over that time had different outcomes.

I doubt that Fagan and Clarkson have to wait until the end of any court case or else both clubs will be looking for coaches if these time frames are continued. The principal remains - innocent until proven guilty. If the accusers go to ground then the AFL can only declare 'no case' and they will return to work. That could be before the start of the 2023 season. If all the witnesses co-operate the AFL ends up with 2 sides of the story and a truck load of lawyers yelling unfair process and the need to cross examine the AFL's report will again be inconclusive in the public's eye. (The Patric Cripps case - legal arguments win). a twist could be the AFL find something in their investigation that results in criminal charges, again the legal systems timing come into play.

Unless either side fires a silver bullet - (voice recordings, text messages, emails, anything other than - they said, we said) I can only see the coaches returning to work anytime soon IF the clubs declare innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Clarkythelion]

The people making the allegations are known, not by the public but by the people writing the report and articles and more than likely by the people that the allegations have been made against. Aspects of those allegations have been verified by 3rd parties. You could say anything you want about anyone, no media are going to give a rats unless you have some basis to your claims, or that someone may be able to verify it or that your claims might be considered newsworthy. They’ve got 3 from 3, you’re 0/3…get it?

Can you please list anyone that has verified the claims in public so far? The research report and the ABC are not sources of verification they just carried the claims without verification. Just put the names here of you think can prove what was said in the meeting with the accusers? Not 'some assistant coach" without saying who it was.

 

[western royboy]

No one is saying it isn't, but why is there a lack of sympathy for the accused on the assumption that the accusers say so - surely you aren't that niave that this sort of thing goes on all around the world and is often unsubstantiated to the massive detriment of people in Fagan's position and extending to those who have been accused of heinous sexual crimes when it wasn't even them, yet there names are mud, lives n ruins, friendships lost that don't return when their names aren't cleared. Personally, the same will likely happen either and there was no need smearing peoples names unless they had a crap-load of hard evidence, which I have my doubts.

No I’m not naive, I have sympathy for all parties, like I say it’s a truly horrible situation for everyone. But I’ve been in the position of the little guy, and unlike you I know what it’s like to have to go through the shit and have people doubt your story. It’s a big thing to go through this and put your name to the allegations. Mine was a historical rape case like the one you quote as a throwaway line. No witnesse, no forensic evidence. Juts my account…how’s your hard evidence? Add in your perceived racism and is there any wonder they need protection. Some of the worst posting I’ve ever seen on the Lions board.