Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Tom14]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

Adam simpson was claiming that due to soft cap cuts clubs would only draft private school kids and kids from 'stable families' last year:

Simpson backtracks on 'private school' comments

"I got it wrong, I need to own it"

www.sen.com.au

 

[Bucking Beads]

Adam simpson was claiming that due to soft cap cuts clubs would only draft private school kids and kids from 'stable families' last year:

Simpson backtracks on 'private school' comments

"I got it wrong, I need to own it"

www.sen.com.au

I don’t think he’s actually wrong do you? Footy is a business. Clubs will be looking to draft players that are going to be good employees and the best chance at being AFL footballers.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

Bid on Jarrod Cameron didn’t we?

 

[Viceregal]

One worrying potential fallout from this, may be clubs reluctance to draft indigenous kids whom once they would have taken a chance on? An unfortunate consequence of clubs becoming 'risk averse' if more clubs do reviews, find problems which cause upheavals?

The indigenous kids early in the draft should be unaffected, its the 50/50 ones that clubs may decide to pass over due to an unspoken, 'risk management'? I certainly hope not.
.

Gee I hope that’s not the case. We need to get educated on our First Nations people and treat them accordingly. We can’t undo the past but we can learn from it and create a better future.

As written totally correct - however the 'better future' referenced might not included playing full time professional football in a national competition.

As Required intimated if you know that a kid had strong family ties, comes from a culture that involves continued embedding in each others lives, comes from a culture where you mate/marry young and family is expected right off, where work life balance is a key factor with the emphasis on the life side of the ledger, where random leave of absence is expected and where precision of timeliness is not a big deal then all that extra knowing and understanding of what motivates and drives said kid could indeed reduce their chances of being drafted.

Loving the game does not mean that you are prepared to transform yourself into a footballing machine - and there are kids from every walk of life who have talent but not the focused drive to make it in the AFL as we have seen in our own club over the years.

 

[lioninthesand]

I find it odd but that’s just me. The First Nations lads always seem very close to one another and you’d think the mature players would be there to support the younger First Nations players given they know what they’re going through.

100% - I get the notion and I share some of the surprise about the senior guys having no clue.

Just gotter be careful that initial sentiment doesen’t turn to ‘Shaun should have known or be there to support them’ as it plays out.

You could see yesterday there was already an air of responsibility that lies with him as he spoke, which is unfair on so many levels.

 

[notliondown]

Oh 100% - my comment wasn’t saying ‘because of this the report is true’ - just that clearly, during that succsessful era where he would have had a fairly hefty god complex, he probably would have overstepped in various areas consistently.

I remember listening to various media discussions during that era about how Clarkson had redefined AFL football and that he was the best coach the game had ever seen. The fawning and flagellation was vomit inducing. And it went on for years.

No wonder he had/has God complex - there was literally an industry at his feet licking his boots.

There's something horribly hypocritical now that those same people are perched on high ground calling for heads.

The industry needs a shake up. It's clear the checks and balances that should work with the amount of scrutiny the game gets are superficial nonsense. Instead of arse licking it would nice to have a media engaged deeply enough that a player could feel safe and trusted enough to expose this garbage at the time not a decade later.

 

[rye]

I don’t think he’s actually wrong do you? Footy is a business. Clubs will be looking to draft players that are going to be good employees and the best chance at being AFL footballers.

it is absolutely the wrong take

in a time when social mobility has basically died in australia, what kind of message does something like this send to kids who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds? you will never be good enough for us?

the idea that private school kids will be good employees with the implied assertion that those who dont are less likely (or will not) be so does not hold true at all. look at the schools jordan de goey, bailey smith and lachie hunter went to. if you want a historical example, ben cousins is a good one to start with

people who arent born into privilege already have more hurdles to overcome than those who are. to slam the door shut on them completetly goes against basically every value i take this country to hold

 

[Required]

As written totally correct - however the 'better future' referenced might not included playing full time professional football in a national competition.

As Required intimated if you know that a kid had strong family ties, comes from a culture that involves continued embedding in each others lives, comes from a culture where you mate/marry young and family is expected right off, where work life balance is a key factor with the emphasis on the life side of the ledger, where random leave of absence is expected and where precision of timeliness is not a big deal then all that extra knowing and understanding of what motivates and drives said kid could indeed reduce their chances of being drafted.

Loving the game does not mean that you are prepared to transform yourself into a footballing machine - and there are kids from every walk of life who have talent but not the focused drive to make it in the AFL as we have seen in our own club over the years.

Thats an excellent short synopsis of how a part of Indigenous culture affects their footy life. If more people knew and accepted this, it would go a long way to understanding and accepting differences.
.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Pretty strong statement from Clarkson.

If an investigation shows no guilt or things have been twisted then it’s still not enough to exonerate them. Their names have been tarnished. The only way they can move on from this in a football sense is to make it known (after an investigation) that they are considering compensation for damages. It has to be that strong in response.

If I knew I was not guilty of the serious allegations and it has been twisted to suit a certain narrative then I would have no hesitation in doing so. It would have to be done.

 

[Sherrinator]

Dear god. Tongue in cheek or not, I will still use that saying as nothing remotely racist meant by it. I hope no-one tries to make it so.

Don’t even acknowledge these idiots

 

[davemc_lions]

AFL normally buried these things before.
no one will know the real facts although the mud would already stuck you think this time.

be interesting what the AFL does now.

 

[_Gin]

Can people stop complaining about the process of the article yet? Or are we believing half-cocked reports from Jon Ralph or Eddie?

Journalists are the only ones who think 24 hours to respond is reasonable. 24 hours depending on when it is raised is barely enough time to engage a lawyer.

I always take it with a pinch of salt as to what it means when a party has been "requested to comment" or "did not respond".

You can't use it to infer anything about the person responding or the rest of the article.

 

[mpal6]

Like our club? The only ones we've drafted recently have come through the academy

thanks, yep we're a racist club. Are you going to microwave your membership soon?

Let me shit stir back and let's see who gets to the bottom of the barrel fast.

 

[Section 5]

The journo claims he sent it directly to Fagans email and followed up with a phone call, both were ignored - which is well within Fagans rights.

Can we just accept that Fagan would not have responded to the journo and the questions either way and move on?

It would not have been in his best interests to speak at that early stage, any denials or rebuttals would have been incredibly risky at that point.

If he is found completely innocent, he and his lawyers will have the right to explore defamation angles once the findings are released - the ABC will have assessed that risk and will have lawyers at the ready.

Just a slight difference (bolded) from what i read by the ABC journalist. But a big difference in how things may have unfolded
Jackson said the email went to the Lions general email address

A Lions staff member would have read the email and realised this is a very serious matter and needs urgent attention. One would hope so anyhow

Because the email asked specific questions on the allagations that email would have gone to the highest management. A guess but about 95+% chance
My guess is they would have had a huge meeting with or without Fagan initially. Legal would have been involved.
The email may or may not have been forwarded on to Fagans personal email account initially
I imagine at some stage Fagan advised the Club he has also received a message on his phone from Jackson

What transpired with Fagan and the club is unknown at present

Jackson waited 24-30 hours without hearing from Fagan so article was released

The end result was Fagan did not call the journalist back or reply to the email
Fagan took a leave of absence
The club released a statement to media and all members
........

This morning Gil advised the enquire should take 6-8 weeks
Both coaches will be away from clubs at this time
....

What the hell is going to happen
There are no winners here just messed up lives for all concerned

 

[Nathan Barley]

God you like to stir s**t, when was there a 50/50 choice between 2 players one indigenous and one not and we have gone the non indigenous player? Yet we chased Charlie and Ah Chee.

Bid on Jarrod Cameron didn’t we?

Yes we've traded for mature indigenous players and bid on the brother of one but they're not coming from the perceived risky backgrounds which are being discussed

 

[Nathan Barley]

thanks, yep we're a racist club. Are you going to microwave your membership soon?

Let me s**t stir back and let's see who gets to the bottom of the barrel fast.

Am I wrong?

 

[Bucking Beads]

it is absolutely the wrong take

in a time when social mobility has basically died in australia, what kind of message does something like this send to kids who come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds? you will never be good enough for us?

the idea that private school kids will be good employees with the implied assertion that those who dont are less likely (or will not) be so does not hold true at all. look at the schools jordan de goey, bailey smith and lachie hunter went to. if you want a historical example, ben cousins is a good one to start with

people who arent born into privilege already have more hurdles to overcome than those who are. to slam the door shut on them completetly goes against basically every value i take this country to hold

I do agree with you but it’s also not reality of business. The worlds a pretty shitty place unfortunately and it’s littered with people getting a leg up just because of the school or college they attended or how much money their family has.

 

[DevRoboGun]

24 hours to respond to potentially career ending allegations is outrageous. Even if fages is innocent, he would need to seek legal advice on how to respond to every question. 1 week would have been somewhat fair, what does 1 week matter to a journo to potentially destroy someone’s career?

 

[McIvor]

This is straight up just shooting the messenger because you don't like what they have to say. Russell Jackson has a very good reputation and broke the stories on Rod Owen and Robert Muir. You know full well that he contacted Fagan and Clarkson for comment and they didn't respond, and yet you still comment that he didn't give them an opportunity to defend themselves. How does that work?

Unless there is a law that says everyone must check their emails and voicemail in a 24 hour period, which many don't -then it is completely unreasonable to expect someone to respond particularly someone as busy as Fagan conducting end of year reviews and the rest. If this reporter was sitting on it for as long as he was, why didn't he place calls to Fagan a week ago or better yet, if he was serious about getting into contact with him, why didn't he contact Swan or a myriad of other people at the club and inform them that he was about to drop a bomb that will forever damage his character, career and everything else.

Either way, the reporters reporting and "attempts" at contacting Fagan leave a lot to be desired if he actually wants to be taken seriously, becuase given his underhandedness, I question his credibility and legitamacy, which is his doing, no-one elses.

 

[Tom14]

Am I wrong?

Between 2007 and 2015 I don't think we drafted a non-white player - I don't think that was due to our recruiters being actively and deliberately racist, but that's a long period of time. To be fair, I don't know the background of all players who came onto the list in that time period so I can't say for sure.

First non-white player we drafted in that time period was Reuben William onto the rookie list and then Cedric Cox the year after in 2016.

 

[Maverick]

Is it though? In the last 20 years for work I will have been in conservatively 1000 team meetings, had 5000 client meetings and probably 50,000 phone calls.

Would I be expected to remember each and every interaction?

Good point you make. I too would have attended as many meetings.

However, if I witnessed someone demand what Clarko is alleged to have said, I would remember it as clear as day.

Fagan needs to be crystal clear. Do not use words like “do not recall”. Fagan needs to state that in meetings he was privy to, it happened or it didn’t.

 

[mpal6]

Am I wrong?

I just supported your statement.
I think we should all quit supporting Brisbane Lions.
Let me know once you've cancelled the membership please.

 

[carnthemlions]

I haven't posted here in ages. I just wanted to say that this place is an absolute cesspool. The tolerance for attempts at whitewashing, smearing, equivocation etc is sickening. While there's not much blatant racism here, there's plenty of subtext and a metric ton of absolute cowardice. Sit down, shut up, and listen. No one needs to hear about your sudden concerns about "justice" or whatever. You don't care the rest of the time, so why suddenly start when it's a white coach who could very comfortably retire (and should if he's the decent person people previously claimed he is) right now?

I don't know who the person involved is so I won't speculate but I had already wondered if drugs were involved somewhere along the line (I've tried to look at every possibility in this drama) thinking if the answer is yes, then how reliable are the stories. A druggie could get the story muddled up, tell an outright lie (people do lie) be confused, anything. I certainly would not be taking the word of a druggie. I also would not automatically believe someone either, never have. I try to think it out first..

Could also have exaggerated a situation then got caught up in it as the story got bigger and couldn't get out of it etc.....all possibilities or possibly none of.

All I know is our much loved coach's career is highly likely over, our club thrown into disarray and who knows what it is doing to our own Indigenous boys....their sense of loyalities etc. What happens now going into a trade/draft and pre-season and for our team in general and what effect.

As far as I'm concerned at this stage this article by the ABC is too one sided....and just getting messier as it goes along. Could drag on for months.

This post, however, is blatantly racist. Attempts to cast doubt by smearing and alluding to "druggies". I'm sure it will pass unremarked upon because we all want what's best for the club or whatever. Incidentally this attitude reflects exactly what Clarkson and co and their lawyers will do. Smear their victims, starting the whole process again.

 

[morsie]

The key word in all this is "allegations'".Unfortunately the verdict is already in and IMHO , both Clarkson and Fagan are toast .They will never be able to coach again and their reputations are trashed.
Its unfair but its the times we live in.The ABC has spent the last year or two trashing people 's reputations often without proof i.e. Neville Wran, George Pell , Christian Porter, Andrew Laming , Allan Tudge etc etc.
They will continue to do so.
Thanks Fages for everything but its over.

 

[carnthemlions]

24 hours to respond to potentially career ending allegations is outrageous. Even if fages is innocent, he would need to seek legal advice on how to respond to every question. 1 week would have been somewhat fair, what does 1 week matter to a journo to potentially destroy someone’s career?

I think this concern has been adequately addressed many times, including by the very reputable journo you're trying to discredit.

The key word in all this is "allegations'".Unfortunately the verdict is already in and IMHO , both Clarkson and Fagan are toast .They will never be able to coach again and their reputations are trashed.
Its unfair but its the times we live in.The ABC has spent the last year or two trashing people 's reputations often without proof i.e. Neville Wran, George Pell , Christian Porter, Andrew Laming , Allan Tudge etc etc.
They will continue to do so.
Thanks Fages for everything but its over.

Is this satire?