Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[carnthemlions]

That's beside my point which is it's quite easy to not see an email in a 24 hour period. How long a journalist should twiddle their thumbs for is up to them.

Why is this the most important issue here for you? That's the real question.

 

[Jeremiah001]

Dont want to make alot of comment here with this situation as having no inside info means with leave for the relevant parties to investigate but i did find it interesting that Shaun Burgoyne had no idea this was going on so would have thought or presumed that someone may have gone to him with their concerns.
Unfortunately it sounds very messy but lets wait for the investigation.

Maybe Burgoyne is a good bloke. Good blokes dont tend to know anything of these matters.

 

[bungalow_bill]

If all parties stand their ground, I dont see how Fagan and Clarkson come back from this. Even If the players walk some of it back, there will be many who say they were coerced in some way to do so.

Besides the players, I do feel sympathy for both Lions and North clubs as both are blameless, at least in this case. Lions because of so much negative press lately, and North because after that initial ray of hope by getting a gun coach, they are now potentially in a far more precarious position than before. North fans are gutted. They may indeed end up in Tasmania, where only 2 days ago they were dreaming of a golden era.

Yeah feel badly for the decent North supporters. To go from potentially getting a raft of draft picks and Clarkson as coach to this is pretty rough. At most we'll lose a coach. Have a feeling the Hawks may cop it the most through possible draft sanctions

 

[Tom14]

The point about whether the journalist offered 24 hours or a week or w/e is irrelevant. No one would cooperate with a journalist in these circumstances. You are only going to cooperate with a formal process like the one the AFL is running. I'm not sure why people are getting hung up on the journalist thing.

No one here actually knows what went on and you can't debate that on this forum - but you can argue against the journalist based on a weird report from Ralph and Eddie making stuff up about the opportunity to comment. The allegation is easier to stomach I guess if you take the approach that the ABC is biased, or the process was unfair, than confront the reality that maybe Fagan was involved in something awful.

Which I really hope he wasn't to be clear!

 

[bungalow_bill]

Why is this the most important issue here for you? That's the real question.

It's not just contributing my opinion to the discussion. I don't really have a vested interest in this except finding out the truth.

 

[frenchconnection]

This isn’t surprising coming out of a club ran by Kennett.

Cyril Rioli goes public with racism claims at Hawthorn | AFL | The Guardian

Jeff Kennett is under pressure to step down as president of AFL club Hawthorn after allegations his treatment of Cyril Rioli led to the four-time premiership player’s premature retirement

amp.theguardian.com

On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Most Clubs have their skeletons, even Carlton lol.

 

[haystark]

Yeah feel badly for the decent North supporters. To go from potentially getting a raft of draft picks and Clarkson as coach to this is pretty rough. At most we'll lose a coach. Have a feeling the Hawks may cop it the most through possible draft sanctions

I have seen this mentioned elsewhere and I fail to see how that would eventuate. That usually only happens when a club cheats the system to gain an advantage ie. Essendon drugs saga and Carlton back in the early 2000s.

I would think a fine for the club and a life ban from football for all those involved would be more likely.

 

[Tassie4ever]

I note all the wokies have come out here to display their superior intelligence for the benefit of we mere mortals.

What I as a non-legal person [is this still a legal descriptor?] find wrong is that the CM, not normally noted for its anything-AFL coverage, can display Fagan's head on its front page, yet his accusers names are "redacted".

Having once been accused of a work-place misdemeanour, totally without foundation, I have a certain sympathy for Fagan. Fortunately for me, my then State Director found that since there was no evidence that I had committed the alleged "crime" I should not be required to offer the apology suggested by the investigating officer. In the meantime, my name had, without doubt, been dragged through the mud in HQ, my name forever associated with something I had nothing to do with.

Same with Fagan- he'll forever be tainted with this, regardless. My guess- he won't be back. The sponsors will decree.

As for the ABC and Murdoch stuff. Anyone who doesn't think the ABC runs agendas- think The Voice, gay marriage, limitless immigration, climate crisis, anti-SAS, Laming, Porter, Pell etc etc. Seriously???? And I mean, it's only bogans who follow AFL, right?? And they probably eat non-vegan pies and stuff. So who cares. As for the timing. A total mystery coming as it has only a few days before the GF. Just pure coincidence.

As for the Murdoch haters- just do what I do when PK comes on the air on Green-Left RN- exercise your right to switch off. I do.

 

[briztoon]

A horrible mess for all involved
Gil advised the enquiry will take 6-8 weeks which is a reasonable time frame for such things
However this is not ideal for a business that relies on sponsorship, membership and AFL monies to stay in the black

At the end of the day don't be surprised if sponsors have a big say in what the club should do
The Pies found out the hard way a few years ago with sponsors either pulling sponsorship or threatening to do so
Then they dropped from 8th to 17th on the ladder

Does the club wait and support Fagan and cop the fallout that invariably will come over 6-8 weeks. Look what's happening in only a few days

Fagan has said on a number of occasions if the club asked the question of him continuing as coach he would do the right thing by the club
He obviously was not thinking of this scenario but here we are

Weather he was not involved in the alligations, involved by means of not standing up for players, or recalls all of the alligations, is not the point now.

It is sad for me to say but i think Fagan should resign now and come to some agreemant with the club $ wise
This happens in other businesses. Someone has to take the fall rightly or wrongly to protect the business

Scenario 1: We appoint an interim coach for 12 months and possibly reappoint Fagan if cleared and their is no doubt about his involvement
Scenario 2: We go straight into appointing a new coach immediatly. Process about 3-4 weeks
I prefer 2 as i doubt we get the right canditate as an interim coach but we could get lucky

What i think will happen is the club stands by Fagan up to a point in time, then when too much damage is done they start process of a new coach.
This delay is not ideal in my opinion

The Pies falling down the ladder was much more likely centred on destroying the onfield culture and belief amongst the playing group, when players had their reputations questioned publicly by the club and were traded out, all in the name of rebalancing their salary cap.

 

[Sausages]

Yeah, the whole bashing the journo reeks of Ed sticking up for footy mates - predictable but misguided.

All I'd like to see is the cloak of anonymity removed from the victims in this report.

If is as alleged, then this issue deserves full visibility in the public sphere, because it is a massive public issue and is arguably in the public interest.

Nobody should be free to stand in the shadows and make such gross accusations, which are bordering on the murderously reprehensible, and be permitted to share or divulge nothing further as regards their statements.

This isn't "casual racism", nor is it "cultural insensitivity" - it is racially based and institutionally realised abuse, control, and coercion to advocate otherwise undesirable and unconscionable ends even at the cost of life.

Given all of that, I think it is fair and reasonable for the owners of the original statements to be identified in the manner of the accused.

 

[Elixuh]

Yeah, the whole bashing the journo reeks of Ed sticking up for footy mates - predictable but misguided.

All I'd like to see is the cloak of anonymity removed from the victims in this report.

If is as alleged, then this issue deserves full visibility in the public sphere, because it is a massive public issue and is arguably in the public interest.

Nobody should be free to stand in the shadows and make such gross accusations, which are bordering on the murderously reprehensible, and be permitted to share or divulge nothing further as regards their statements.

This isn't "casual racism", nor is it "cultural insensitivity" - it is racially based and institutionally realised abuse, control, and coercion to advocate otherwise undesirable and unconscionable ends even at the cost of life.

Given all of that, I think it is fair and reasonable for the owners of the original statements to be identified in the manner of the accused.

What material purpose is served by the disclosure of the names of these people to the public?

They will be interviewed as part of the formal AFL process.

 

[Albi_Mangler]

My view is that the story should not have been run by the ABC or any new outlet in the way it was. There is only one reason it was and it has absolutely nothing to do with informing the public, all just for $, clicks, publicity.

The information is entirely unsubstantiated. Although multiple sources appear to have provided similar instances there is no detail about how this information was elicited during the process. No attempts to corroborate that information. An experienced interrogator can easily elicit the answers needed to create such a narrative or conversely an inexperienced one can unintentionally insert biased information.

For these reasons I remain skeptical. Whole thing just has the smell of horseshit about it.

Further I disagree that this is the end for Fagan. We as a community should demand that it isn't. No one should be forced from their employment in these circumstances.

 

[Sausages]

What material purpose is served by the disclosure of names of these people to the public?

They will be interviewed as part of the formal AFL process.

What material purpose does it serve for Fagan's name to be made public?

Where is the difference between the accuser and the accused insofar as provision of anonymity is concerned?

We speak about wanting a fair and equitable process....how exactly is that goal achieved in the current environment?

The only way I can see for some semblance of parity to return is for the identity of both sides to be revealed.

 

[Toffee Lion]

Fagan and Clarkson deny it and there is no proof presented yet to back up the allegations.

This is where we stand at the current and there is only two options moving forward in my mind.

1) Proof is provided. Solid proof and it’s confirmed that Fagan & Clarkson are lying, they’re punished justly.

2) No proof is provided. Fagan & Clarkson’s reputation is tarnished (Unless they can provide proof the accusers are lying) but they’re allowed to continue working.

All I will say is that if you are going to accuse people of very very serious allegations, to a reporter, you would surely have proof ready to go. Time will tell if that is the case.

Otherwise if there is no proof, there is every chance the 3 accusers conspired to lie in hopes of receiving monetary compensation. Innocent until proven guilty people, let’s not lose sight of that.

 

[Mighty Lions]

It's funny watching all the right wing murdoch fans come out of the woodwork discrediting the abc. It must hurt them deeply that it exists. If they could just get rid of this pesky channel uncle rupert could assert full domination over the airwaves and the liberals / catholic church would never be held accountable again.

I dont discriminate...they are all low principled turds.

 

[Squizz89]

The alleged meetings that occurred probably won’t be the deciding factor as to how this plays out as both sides would have differing opinions as to what and how they played out in a possible he said/she said type scenario.

What might get them is if there are copies of these emails and/or text msgs floating around that are referenced in that original article. If any of those exist and make reference to the allegations then they’ll have some trouble disproving it. Once something is in writing, you’re generally screwed.

We shall wait to see if they do in fact exist.

 

[Elixuh]

What material purpose does it serve for Fagan's name to be made public?

Where is the difference between the accuser and the accused insofar as provision of anonymity is concerned?

We speak about wanting a fair end equitable process....how exactly is that goal achieved in the current environment?

The only way I can see for some semblance of parity to return is for the identity of both sides to be revealed.

So in essence you can’t answer my question.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Fagan and Clarkson deny it and there is no proof presented yet to back up the allegations.

This is where we stand at the current and there is only two options moving forward in my mind.

1) Proof is provided. Solid proof and it’s confirmed that Fagan & Clarkson are lying, they’re punished justly.

2) No proof is provided. Fagan & Clarkson’s reputation is tarnished (Unless they can provide proof the accusers are lying) but they’re allowed to continue working.

All I will say is that if you are going to accuse people of very very serious allegations, to a reporter, you would surely have proof ready to go. Time will tell if that is the case.

Otherwise if there is no proof, there is every chance the 3 accusers conspired to lie in hopes of receiving monetary compensation. Innocent until proven guilty people, let’s not lose sight of that.

Problem with 2) is that their reputations are damaged to such an extent that I fear they wont return to their jobs.

 

[bungalow_bill]

I have seen this mentioned elsewhere and I fail to see how that would eventuate. That usually only happens when a club cheats the system to gain an advantage ie. Essendon drugs saga and Carlton back in the early 2000s.

I would think a fine for the club and a life ban from football for all those involved would be more likely.

Did the Bombers receive draft sanctions I can't recall. I do recall them getting the #1 draft pick as an indirect consequence of the drugs situation

 

[Jeremiah001]

So in essence you can’t answer my question.

The answer you are looking for is that the media and their pals on social media cant set their dogs on these folk if they dont know who they are.

 

[lioninthesand]

its important to note fagan is a well off man who is likely to have the full suite of club in house lawyers / pr / media backing him through this process

i dont think we need to rush to defend him with the good bloke defence and make posts that sound like browbeating towards the victims here. fagan has all the resources in the world possible to exonerate himself if he has indeed done nothing untowards.

Exactly, I love Fages and hold hopes he will be given his chance to defend himself and due process, I hold hope he will be our coach in 2023.

But this notion from some on here that he is doomed and won’t get fair process is shouldn’t be the focus of our concern in this horrible situation.

Not because he doesent deserve it, of coarse he does, but because he will have the backing of the entire machine on his side and he will 100% get fair process with powerful representation.

I hold no fears that if Fagan is innocent or innocent enough, he will be our coach next year.

 

[Squizz89]

Problem with 2) is that their reputations are damaged to such an extent that I fear they wont return to their jobs.

Any word on how the playing group are taking the last 36 hours?

 

[Dom PC]

A civil suit can lead to a monetary award from a court that bankrupts someone if they lose through paying the other side's legal costs. The standard for civil cases is generally 'on the balance of probabilities,' not 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' Without knowing how the AFL panel will operate, it is logical to assume it will operate on a similar basis to civil cases.

And I'm sorry as much as damage to reputation is obviously a severe consquence, it is not the same as living in jail.

I guess this is where you differ to many other people around here. If there is a 50/50 possibility Fagan is lying and the accusations are true, you are willing to immediately throw him under the bus and denounce him without getting the full picture. Even when there hasn't been a murmur of poor people management by him over the last 6 years.

Exhibit A:

It stinks. Feels like finding out my favourite uncle posts really racist stuff on facebook. I've been very proud of how Fages has represented our club and turned us around in the last 6 years.

I just think posts like the above are poor form and show you are more interested in reacting to a juicy story and pre-empting the consequences of the juicy story than waiting for the truth first. Which is really disrespectful to Fagan.

 

[Sausages]

So in essence you can’t answer my question.

I did answer your question - if we want fairness, which seems a reasonable goal to reach, then both parties' names should be made public.

That's "the material use" of identifying the currently anonymous.

 

[Brett C]

It's funny watching all the right wing murdoch fans come out of the woodwork discrediting the abc. It must hurt them deeply that it exists. If they could just get rid of this pesky channel uncle rupert could assert full domination over the airwaves and the liberals / catholic church would never be held accountable again.

I do laugh that people hold the ABC as this shining beacon of journalism.

Time and again they been shown to report/publish false information.

They’ve had 100’s of upheld complaints against them in the past.

Why you think people who don’t trust the ABC must then be right wing Murdoch supporters.

This isn’t the US where we most identify as either Republican or Democrats like it’s their first name.

I’ve always believed that 80% of Australia are balanced politically/personally.