NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[mcnulty]

There is nothing to engage with. Nothing of value, at least.

You're equating something done on their terms (engagement with media, participation in review) with something done on the terms of the AFL (a notorious champion of POC well-being ). That is stupid.

They don’t get to have an inquiry done all on their terms. Did someone say thick?

 

[Ricketz]

As I keep trying to tell you, understanding the context of his comment is important before deciding it's racist.

If someone of indigenous descent is aware of the wada meme at the time they can feel free to comment, but it seems to me it's quite new to you and therefore you've decided it can only be a racist thing, used intentionally and knowingly by racist people, in an attempt to be racist.

You've also decided that understanding the context is irrelevant, despite the search function producing posts as far back as 2013 referring to the comment, quite clearly not having any mention or relation to race (unless WADA is a race now).

Sometimes context matters, understanding when and how a word is used matters - especially for a language like English where the usage of a word can change over time, and can simultaneously mean multiple things.

Take the word monkey or ape for example. It's not a racist word when used in one context, but is incredibly racist in another. Context matters.

The irony of lecturing me about understanding the context in a thread about racism.

 

[Ricketz]

They don’t get to have an inquiry done all on their terms. Did someone say thick?

That is what the terms of reference are. Sheesh.

 

[gouki88]

They don’t get to have an inquiry done all on their terms. Did someone say thick?

Nobody was saying it should be on their terms. But why would they participate if they think it unsatisfactory, harmful, or insufficient? Keep up xox

 

[mcnulty]

That is what the terms of reference are. Sheesh.

They as in the players, dopey. You really need to stop, slow down and take a few deep breaths. Better yet step away from the keyboard.

Serious meltdown here.

 

[mcnulty]

Nobody was saying it should be on their terms. But why would they participate if they think it unsatisfactory, harmful, or insufficient? Keep up xox

Well then don’t participate. Fine by me. But don’t expect the AFL to act then. And they can pursue their case elsewhere, if they figure out when and where will be “comfortable” to them.

 

[The acurate one]

You don't find it outrageous to use a term that was used to ridicule Aborigines in a thread about racism towards them?

Says more about you than me.

I am finding this thread to be outrageous. And alleged racism fyi. I tend not to see people by colour but take a holistic approach to them and or their personal views.

Being of Nth African descent, I have copped my fair share of such commentary. It means nothing to me tbh. What annoys me more is when others take ownership of treatments on someone else's behalf. Kind of like stating those that are being slighted aren't smart enough to realise that, so I best pick up the baton for them.

 

[gouki88]

I am finding this thread to be outrageous. And alleged racism fyi. I tend not to see people by colour but take a holistic approach to them and or their personal views.

Being of Nth African descent, I have copped my fair share of such commentary. It means nothing to me tbh. What annoys me more is when others take ownership of treatments on someone else's behalf. Kind of like stating those that are being slighted aren't smart enough to realise that, so I best pick up the baton for them.

Jesus Christ, lol.

 

[the big lebowski]

It is an extremely complex problem that cannot be easily summarised in one post, and I am no expert. Nor can they be solved overnight - but one of the first steps is to accept the role that society has in creating these conditions. For instance, recognising the stated "reasons" above that indigenous people commit crimes as stressors and working to eliminate them, rather than just using them as an excuse.

Social, economic, judicial, health and educational barriers to engagement with broader Australian society need to be broken down - and I won't pretend I am across all of the effective policies that would help.

However, the steps identified in the Justice Agreement seem to reflect what I have read elsewhere regarding the over incarceration issue (the link to the full set of resources is below):

Reduce offending and imprisonment of Aboriginal Territorians

• Establish and offer alternatives to custody.
• Establish Community Courts.
• Reduce domestic and family violence offending.
• Review and reform legislative provisions within the justice system that are unfair, discriminatory or detrimental to Aboriginal people.
• Expand community-based sentencing options and non-financial options for the payment of fines.
• Increase opportunities for prisoners to participate in high quality programs to reduce reoffending.

Engage and support Aboriginal leadership

• Establish and maintain respectful place-based engagement with Aboriginal Territorians in decision-making.
• Establish and support Law and Justice Groups.
• Promote the uptake of leadership roles for Aboriginal people including appointments as Justices of the Peace and Commissioners for Oaths.

Improve justice responses and services for Aboriginal Territorians

• Identify and eliminate systemic racism in government agencies and contracted service providers that directly or indirectly discriminate against Aboriginal Territorians engaged in the justice system.
• Improve the collection, analysis and interpretation of data that impacts on justice outcomes for Aboriginal Territorians.
• Increase Aboriginal Territorians knowledge and use of justice and other complaint mechanisms.
• Review and redesign key service models and any contracted services that impact on justice outcomes to ensure they are efficient, effective, and meet the needs of Aboriginal Territorians.

Northern Territory Aboriginal Justice Agreement 2021–2027

The Northern Territory Aboriginal Justice Agreement and accompanying documents.

justice.nt.gov.au

Thank you for your response. I must say the first group of points makes some sense if I’m reading it correctly. Which is a different legal system (in part) for remote indigenous communities?

If indigenous people wanted that I can’t see why it shouldn’t be tried at least. As we’ve pointed out a 30% incarceration rate obviously shows whatever is happening at the moment is at working.

Very complex.

For me, one of the main things that stands out to me is opportunity. Let’s be real, if you come from an impoverished community, you’re opportunities are limited. Now some people won’t be bothered by that. But for those kids and young adults out there that really want to live a better life, I think the main thing we need to do is help them start to live that life. That makes it sound easy, and I know it’s not.

But if want to start somewhere, helping those that feel helpless in wanting better seems like a good place to focus on for some change.

 

[gouki88]

Well then don’t participate. Fine by me. But don’t expect the AFL to act then. And they can pursue their case elsewhere, if they figure out when and where will be “comfortable” to them.

How unsurprising that you would be fine for them not to participate

 

[The acurate one]

Jesus Christ, lol.

I am Christian and am outraged by that comment. Blasphemer!!

 

[Ricketz]

Thank you for your response. I must say the first group of points makes some sense if I’m reading it correctly. Which is a different legal system (in part) for remote indigenous communities?

If indigenous people wanted that I can’t see why it shouldn’t be tried at least. As we’ve pointed out a 30% incarceration rate obviously shows whatever is happening at the moment is at working.

Very complex.

For me, one of the main things that stands out to me is opportunity. Let’s be real, if you come from an impoverished community, you’re opportunities are limited. Now some people won’t be bothered by that. But for those kids and young adults out there that really want to live a better life, I think the main thing we need to do is help them start to live that life. That makes it sound easy, and I know it’s not.

But if want to start somewhere, helping those that feel helpless in wanting better seems like a good place to focus on for some change.

No worries - the implementation plan sets out the timelines and programs they will implement to achieve these aims.

And it doesn't really look into preventative social factors like employment and education. I think a coordinated response from social services would be very beneficial.

 

[gouki88]

I am Christian and am outraged by that comment. Blasphemer!!

I take pride in being a heretic

 

[mcnulty]

How unsurprising that you would be fine for them not to participate

Lol you are seriously all over the shop. They have been offered a process by the AFL, the decision is up to them whether or not to participate. The AFL can’t reasonably find against the coaches in that case. You do accept this right?

 

[sr36]

Judgements about who?

Judgements about the players or judgements about the coaches?

Pretty sure all judgements are being made based on a deliberately emotive and one sided media article.

They're being made on a one sided article. A one sided review. One sided statements from coaches. etc. Most stories are a string of one sided information. Even something that is "balanced" presents different one sided versions and opinions of events.

 

[Ricketz]

.What annoys me more is when others take ownership of treatments on someone else's behalf. Kind of like stating those that are being slighted aren't smart enough to realise that, so I best pick up the baton for them.

Like you are doing with the people I called out?

Or like you are assuming about my background and experiences?

Or like how your personal approach justifies you dismissing anyone who might receive it as blatant racism?

 

[mcnulty]

Yes, the AFL terms of reference are clearly not the players terms of reference, dopey. Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

That's exactly what gouki88 said in the comment you replied to

Yes, the AFL terms of reference are clearly not the players terms of reference, dopey. Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

That's exactly what gouki88 said in the comment you replied to

So what exactly is your point? The players should wait for their own terms of reference?

Perhaps you could outline this for us, and what should be done in the meantime.

 

[perplexed]

Disagree with the last paragraph, as I've got no qualms about victims sharing their stories with the press and frankly the press story will result in a much larger NDA agreement if it goes that way, which is where it's likely to head. Quick inquiry being run by a group in the firing line who the claimants don't trust. The claimants have absolutely no reason to give evidence to this inquiry - what is the advantage for them in doing so? Inadequate inquiry followed by a Non Disclosure Agreement so that it doesn't get aired in court. Voila. Unless the claimants value the point more than the money they'll be offered.

If I was one of the players, I wouldn't go through the AFL process either. But I also doubt that the coaches would agree to this being resolved with NDA's. As they have been publicly defamed (whether rightly or wrongly), why would they? It is a shambles and the idea that this will be resolved by Christmas is fanciful.

 

[Ricketz]

Lol you are seriously all over the shop. They have been offered a process by the AFL, the decision is up to them whether or not to participate. The AFL can’t reasonably find against the coaches in that case. You do accept this right?

They might have access to the emails, purchase records, witness statements. Of course it doesn't necessarily require the participation of the people involved.

 

[sr36]

Well then don’t participate. Fine by me. But don’t expect the AFL to act then. And they can pursue their case elsewhere, if they figure out when and where will be “comfortable” to them.

Will you be so fine with it if that elsewhere is a courtroom and you're looking at a very long time frame? Bearing in mind that tere's going to be a lot of pressure for the coaches to remain on the sidelines until there is an outcome

 

[Ricketz]

So what exactly is your point? The players should wait for their own terms of reference?

Perhaps you could outline this for us, and what should be done in the meantime.

You were calling him thick for saying exactly what you said, just in different words? Duh.

 

[gouki88]

Lol you are seriously all over the shop. They have been offered a process by the AFL, the decision is up to them whether or not to participate. The AFL can’t reasonably find against the coaches in that case. You do accept this right?

Nice attempt at walking back your statement about being happy for them not to participate.

Of course they can't. That doesn't mean that the scope is acceptable.

 

[sr36]

If I was one of the players, I wouldn't go through the AFL process either. But I also doubt that the coaches would agree to this being resolved with NDA's. As they have been publicly defamed (whether rightly or wrongly), why would they? It is a shambles and the idea that this will be resolved by Christmas is fanciful.

That'd depend on what they felt would come out in a court case, which is where this is likely to head if there is no settlement.

 

[mcnulty]

Will you be so fine with it if that elsewhere is a courtroom and you're looking at a very long time frame? Bearing in mind that tere's going to be a lot of pressure for the coaches to remain on the sidelines until there is an outcome

I’ve said all along eventually this thing could end up with everyone in a court of law and under cross examination. I’d be fine with that.

I most certainly think the coaches should be able to continue to work, and the media sentiment seems definitely to be swinging that way. Especially if the players are being offered a pathway to resolution but refuse to take it.

Can’t see how anything else would be fair on the coaches.

 

[mcnulty]

Nice attempt at walking back your statement about being happy for them not to participate.

No walk back at all. They’re not subpoenaed. It’s entirely their prerogative.