Game Day Hawthorn vs Adelaide at the MCG, Rnd 12 - Do or Die

[Soggy2112]

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None of those stats answer my question.

He is a good footballer. But Nicks allows/encourages him to play in a way that is detrimental to us.

He has limited ability to use the footy. That’s okay, plenty of high level inside midfielders share that trait. But it means him getting 23 uncontested posessions and handballing the majority of the time is of no benefit to us.

The fact that people like you point to his possession numbers as evidence of him playing well is precisely the problem.

His job is to win contested ball, as is Laird’s. We got smashed in that area, and both of them did worse than their opposition. They both played bad games but got a lot of non-impactful posessions so people think they played well.

 

[kirky]

Mutineer you disagree with my post, care to share why?

Both Crouch and Laird this year are in the low 40s for contested possession rates which is considered average for a midfielder. Both are guys who are limited as ball users but who are in the team because they are good contest players.

So while we’re struggling to win in the contest and get the ball going forward, our two most experienced mids are racking up uncontested handballs, and when they do send it forward it’s usually a high kick to the defenders advantage (Laird in particular). At the same time, Schoenberg and Laird are struggling to find the footy and we leave them at half forward, rather than giving them a go in the midfield.

Explain to me how any of these benefits us moving forward.

Numerous times on Saturday, I saw Laird and Crouch handball it to each other and eventually into trouble (who would have thought ).

Seriously, how does that get us forward?

 

[1970crow]

I don't mind if Crouch has negative metres gained, as long as he's dishing it out to better players.

Laird is the selfish one, seems like he handballs to a player under pressure just so he can get a one two from it to pad his stats.

Reality is that neither get selected in a contending midfield. Only our coaching group and supporters are blinded by pure stats.

 

[OccamsRazorRay]

Certainly started with a bang passing a laser to the oppo resulting in a goal, and didn't get any better. A sad demise.

Yep it certainly set the tone, didn't it?

 

[DJ75]

I made the unfortunate decision to go to the game on Saturday. What a shitshow that was. Never in the game for a single second. It was laughable.

We lost the game for a few reasons - the most obvious is the coach.
He's a hack. In the past 12 months, we have beaten North, West Coast, Port, Carlton and Gold Coast. That's it. That's the list.
He constantly reverts to this god awful slow movement, chip kick game plan. It consistently doesn't work. Why do we keep having those 'close, good comeback' losses? Because he always starts with the same terrible plan. Once we are 7 goals down, we then start attacking, and - shock! we actually start scoring. We get on top, and get close to winning. Most often we can't quite make up the difference. Occassionally we get in front, then go back to the slow plan and choke the game away.
No matter what happens the idiot Nicks then goes back to the same plan at the start of the next game.

Other thoughts:

The umpires did not cost us the game - we did that to ourselves. BUT, in the 3rd quarter, we kicked two goals in a row. I said to the wife - watch for a free kick here. Next centre bounce - immediate free kick. Hawks kick long to a contest in F50. Immediate free kick - goal. Completely and utterly predictable.

Keep Laird in the backlines.Train Max with the mids. We will be much better for it.

Crouch and Laird are deliberately stat padding - and helping each other do it. They look for each other constantly - even when better options are available.

I can't work out what to make of Cook. For 2 1/2 quarters he was the worst on ground by a lengthy margin. He had at that point, 1 handball to his name. He was actively running away from opportunities to get the ball. At one point he was running into defence when Keane I think it was took a mark. The pocket was completely empty. If Cook had turned and ran into the space behind him, he would have had an easy outlet mark. He looked at the space and then walked away. He had no interest in getting the ball. I don't think I've ever seen anyone less interested in having a kick. Which is odd, because when he does get it, he's all class. Then he suddenly turns it on and kicks two quick goals that were both full of skill and class. The talent is there. Must find the confidence/desire.

Well we finally did it. Congratulations coaches, you have 'Chayced' Josh Rachele. Poor bugger has no idea what to do at the moment. All the instinct and flair is gone. He's a shell of a player. It's devastating to watch. Our coaches are absolute morons and our ability to understand players is beyond awful.

I can't stand Keays. Not only is he incredibly poorly skilled, and a poor decision maker, but he's also unbelievable selfish. He has no clue as to his limitations and is having zero impact on games - other than to cost us critical scoring opportunities. Must be used as a defensive forward, or not at all.

ROB is a joke. Might as well ruck Hinge. He would compete better, take more marks and be a much better option. Hell Laird would be better.

Walker with a sore back. Not a good sign. He's clearly not right. Needs to be rested until after our bye.

Dawson should not have played. Could barely move out there.

I thought Borlase was one of our best, but the match up of him on Gunston was insanely stupid. Gunstan is a player who gets most of his goals from leading up and being agile. Both are clear weaknesses of Borlase. Borlase is great when it comes to body to body contests. Defending a lead is his biggest weakness. Putting him on Gunston is just as dumb as it gets.

We are missing Worrell and Murray. A LOT. Keane has been good, but his form has dropped off recently. Murray and Worrell would make a huge difference.

We are missing Thilthorpe a LOT. Burgess could be a handy backup player, except his ruckwork is awful. If he could even break even there he would have an AFL future.

Our list management is atrocious. Not a single developing ruck for years? Insanity.

Saturday was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from our team. There was no desire, no cohesion and no effort. I suspect the players have seen Nicks for what he is and he has now lost them.

 

[Mutineer]

None of those stats answer my question.

He is a good footballer. But Nicks allows/encourages him to play in a way that is detrimental to us.

He has limited ability to use the footy. That’s okay, plenty of high level inside midfielders share that trait. But it means him getting 23 uncontested posessions and handballing the majority of the time is of no benefit to us.

The fact that people like you point to his possession numbers as evidence of him playing well is precisely the problem.

His job is to win contested ball, as is Laird’s. We got smashed in that area, and both of them did worse than their opposition. They both played bad games but got a lot of non-impactful posessions so people think they played well.

Nice try but no cigar re Matt Crouch.

Better Contested possession count than all Hawks mids bar Jai Newcombe, better than all of James Worpel, Connor Nash and Will Day and also an equal game high Centre Clearances with Jai Newcombe. And I might add better disposal efficiency (77.1%) than all mids bar Will Day (78.3%)

 

[Soggy2112]

Nice try but no cigar re Matt Crouch.

Better Contested possession count than all Hawks mids bar Jai Newcombe, better than all of James Worpel, Connor Nash and Will Day and also an equal game high Centre Clearances with Jai Newcombe. And I might add better disposal efficiency (77.1%) than all mids bar Will Day (78.3%)

View attachment 2009473

Firstly, I think Matt has a role to play in our best 22. Although I think he played a bad game on Saturday I would not drop him.

However, you mention Newcombe. Newcombe to the eye had far more impact than Crouch, the numbers reflect that, more contested possessions, more clearances and more score involvements. He also kicked far more than he handballed.

Matt’s role is as a clearance mid, as is Newcombe’s, in that aspect of the game, Matt was beaten.

Disposal efficiency is a very flawed stat. It simply measures whether you hit a target or kick long to a contest. If all you do is handball sideways and kick long you’ll end up with high efficiency but have little impact on the game.

Edit: only just saw his injury news, perhaps I was harsh but it’s not the first time matt has played that way.

 

[Mutineer]

Firstly, I think Matt has a role to play in our best 22. Although I think he played a bad game on Saturday I would not drop him.

However, you mention Newcombe. Newcombe to the eye had far more impact than Crouch, the numbers reflect that, more contested possessions, more clearances and more score involvements. He also kicked far more than he handballed.

Matt’s role is as a clearance mid, as is Newcombe’s, in that aspect of the game, Matt was beaten.

Disposal efficiency is a very flawed stat. It simply measures whether you hit a target or kick long to a contest. If all you do is handball sideways and kick long you’ll end up with high efficiency but have little impact on the game.

Edit: only just saw his injury news, perhaps I was harsh but it’s not the first time matt has played that way.

Yeah played the last 3 quarters with a disabling bung shoulder that's now defined as a season ending injuries, maybe pick on some more worthy targets next time, the fact is Matt's been consistently in our top half dozen performers all year and no way was he bad on the weekend. Was Matt the only Crow that played midfield/on ball against the Hawks?

How did you rate Dawson's game played with a disabling injury for all 4 quarters, you know that once you cross that white line thingy..

 

[GameofSloanes]

I made the unfortunate decision to go to the game on Saturday. What a shitshow that was. Never in the game for a single second. It was laughable.

We lost the game for a few reasons - the most obvious is the coach.
He's a hack. In the past 12 months, we have beaten North, West Coast, Port, Carlton and Gold Coast. That's it. That's the list.
He constantly reverts to this god awful slow movement, chip kick game plan. It consistently doesn't work. Why do we keep having those 'close, good comeback' losses? Because he always starts with the same terrible plan. Once we are 7 goals down, we then start attacking, and - shock! we actually start scoring. We get on top, and get close to winning. Most often we can't quite make up the difference. Occassionally we get in front, then go back to the slow plan and choke the game away.
No matter what happens the idiot Nicks then goes back to the same plan at the start of the next game.

Other thoughts:

The umpires did not cost us the game - we did that to ourselves. BUT, in the 3rd quarter, we kicked two goals in a row. I said to the wife - watch for a free kick here. Next centre bounce - immediate free kick. Hawks kick long to a contest in F50. Immediate free kick - goal. Completely and utterly predictable.

Keep Laird in the backlines.Train Max with the mids. We will be much better for it.

Crouch and Laird are deliberately stat padding - and helping each other do it. They look for each other constantly - even when better options are available.

I can't work out what to make of Cook. For 2 1/2 quarters he was the worst on ground by a lengthy margin. He had at that point, 1 handball to his name. He was actively running away from opportunities to get the ball. At one point he was running into defence when Keane I think it was took a mark. The pocket was completely empty. If Cook had turned and ran into the space behind him, he would have had an easy outlet mark. He looked at the space and then walked away. He had no interest in getting the ball. I don't think I've ever seen anyone less interested in having a kick. Which is odd, because when he does get it, he's all class. Then he suddenly turns it on and kicks two quick goals that were both full of skill and class. The talent is there. Must find the confidence/desire.

Well we finally did it. Congratulations coaches, you have 'Chayced' Josh Rachele. Poor bugger has no idea what to do at the moment. All the instinct and flair is gone. He's a shell of a player. It's devastating to watch. Our coaches are absolute morons and our ability to understand players is beyond awful.

I can't stand Keays. Not only is he incredibly poorly skilled, and a poor decision maker, but he's also unbelievable selfish. He has no clue as to his limitations and is having zero impact on games - other than to cost us critical scoring opportunities. Must be used as a defensive forward, or not at all.

ROB is a joke. Might as well ruck Hinge. He would compete better, take more marks and be a much better option. Hell Laird would be better.

Walker with a sore back. Not a good sign. He's clearly not right. Needs to be rested until after our bye.

Dawson should not have played. Could barely move out there.

I thought Borlase was one of our best, but the match up of him on Gunston was insanely stupid. Gunstan is a player who gets most of his goals from leading up and being agile. Both are clear weaknesses of Borlase. Borlase is great when it comes to body to body contests. Defending a lead is his biggest weakness. Putting him on Gunston is just as dumb as it gets.

We are missing Worrell and Murray. A LOT. Keane has been good, but his form has dropped off recently. Murray and Worrell would make a huge difference.

We are missing Thilthorpe a LOT. Burgess could be a handy backup player, except his ruckwork is awful. If he could even break even there he would have an AFL future.

Our list management is atrocious. Not a single developing ruck for years? Insanity.

Saturday was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from our team. There was no desire, no cohesion and no effort. I suspect the players have seen Nicks for what he is and he has now lost them.

Good summary. I was there too. Game was over 5 mins in
The points you make about the 'game plan' are spot on. Even with our average list, just changing this would improve our results a fair bit. This 100% coaching, happens too often not to be.

 

[mick500]

This was honestly one of the worst performances we've had in recent memory. We should have been trying to salvage anything out of this season and instead put in that limp wristed bullshit.

 

[Soggy2112]

Yeah played the last 3 quarters with a disabling bung shoulder that's now defined as a season ending injuries, maybe pick on some more worthy targets next time, the fact is Matt's been consistently in our top half dozen performers all year and no way was he bad on the weekend. Was Matt the only Crow that played midfield/on ball against the Hawks?

How did you rate Dawson's game played with a disabling injury for all 4 quarters, you know that once you cross that white line thingy..

I rate Dawson’s game poorly, but how many games has he played like that?

Compared to how many times we’ve seen a game like that from Crouch and Laird.

Why shouldn’t we be more harsh on Matt, a 28 year old with 150 games experience, versus guys in their third and fourth years and less than 70 games experience?

 

[Mutineer]

I rate Dawson’s game poorly, but how many games has he played like that?

Compared to how many times we’ve seen a game like that from Crouch and Laird.

Why shouldn’t we be more harsh on Matt, a 28 year old with 150 games experience, versus guys in their third and fourth years and less than 70 games experience?

Try because it's not warranted, especially since his recall last year.
AFC supporters has far bigger problems than singling out Matt for their wrath.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Numerous times on Saturday, I saw Laird and Crouch handball it to each other and eventually into trouble (who would have thought ).

Seriously, how does that get us forward?

Crouch usually uses the ball well.

Laird not so much.

Just needs to be moved into defence & Smith out of the side.

Won't be such an issue with Crouch out injured... but it's now time to rip of the bandaid.

 

[1970crow]

Yeah played the last 3 quarters with a disabling bung shoulder that's now defined as a season ending injuries, maybe pick on some more worthy targets next time, the fact is Matt's been consistently in our top half dozen performers all year and no way was he bad on the weekend. Was Matt the only Crow that played midfield/on ball against the Hawks?

How did you rate Dawson's game played with a disabling injury for all 4 quarters, you know that once you cross that white line thingy..

Interesting that a bung shoulder for 3 quarters didn’t slow him down at all. Tells you a fair bit about the way he plays.

 

[Mutineer]

Interesting that a bung shoulder for 3 quarters didn’t slow him down at all. Tells you a fair bit about the way he plays.

Still more tackles than any other midfielder on the ground...

 

[Soggy2112]

Try because it's not warranted, especially since his recall last year.
AFC supporters has far bigger problems than singling out Matt for their wrath.

It absolutely is warranted.

He is a very one dimensional footballer. If that one dimension fails he becomes a liability. Same with Laird. He was beaten by Newcombe, instead of us mixing it up he was able to continue to run around getting meaningless stats as the game slipped further away.

My whole point was that we let Matt and Rory run around stat padding, while Schoenberg and Rachele got almost no midfield time. How does that benefit our development as a side whatsoever?

 

[cleanhands]

It absolutely is warranted.

He is a very one dimensional footballer. If that one dimension fails he becomes a liability. Same with Sloane. He was beaten by Newcombe, instead of us mixing it up he was able to continue to run around getting meaningless stats as the game slipped further away.

My whole point was that we let Matt and Rory run around stat padding, while Schoenberg and Rachele got almost no midfield time. How does that benefit our development as a side whatsoever?

It’s what Nicks does he knows little else

 

[Mutineer]

It absolutely is warranted.

He is a very one dimensional footballer. If that one dimension fails he becomes a liability. Same with Sloane. He was beaten by Newcombe, instead of us mixing it up he was able to continue to run around getting meaningless stats as the game slipped further away.

My whole point was that we let Matt and Rory run around stat padding, while Schoenberg and Rachele got almost no midfield time. How does that benefit our development as a side whatsoever?

I'm talking one of Matt Crouch, the better inside mid of the 2 you keep mentioning, there is still a role for an in and under clearance midfielder in the AFL whether you or anybody else thinks different.

 

[Soggy2112]

I'm talking one of Matt Crouch, the better inside mid of the 2 you keep mentioning, there is still a role for an in and under clearance midfielder in the AFL whether you or anybody else thinks different.

As I said, I agree with you, there is a role for Matt.

But he didn’t play as an inside clearance mid on Saturday. He had a contested possession rate of 34%. That’s not an in and under clearance mid.

Neale, Cripps, Mitchell, Serong, Rowell, Green, Oliver, Steele, Liberatore all operate above 45%.

Also I keep mentioning them together because they don’t work as a pair. Yet Nicks often plays them together. You realise my criticism is far more about the way Nicks uses him than it is about him as a player?

 

[Mutineer]

As I said, I agree with you, there is a role for Matt.

But he didn’t play as an inside clearance mid on Saturday. He had a contested possession rate of 34%. That’s not an in and under clearance mid.

Neale, Cripps, Mitchell, Serong, Rowell, Green, Oliver, Steele, Liberatore all operate above 45%.

Also I keep mentioning them together because they don’t work as a pair. Yet Nicks often plays them together. You realise my criticism is far more about the way Nicks uses him than it is about him as a player?

FFS the bloke should have been taken off early on in the game when he injured his shoulder given he's now out for the season. You can keep coming back at me if you want but I ain't ever going to agree so best we both desist.