How much longer can Bolton survive?

[SickQwon]

Yes they did, we are talking about the ex-GWS players on rhe Cartlon list, most of whom clogged your list.

They were not free hits like you claimed.

Ohh... you're talking about many years ago, ah yep. Stop gaps until the draft recruits came in. Not that hard to understand but whatever.

 

[Blue1980]

With 'supporters' like you who needs trolls.

You can’t sugarcoat our position, it’s gone too far now.

We are still paying for sins of previous regimes, but I think SOS has basically followed the GWS model without the large amount of high picks they had. So we are about as bad as GWS were in 2013, but with less talent.

We are more like Melbourne of 2013

 

[Blue1980]

I have no qualms in saying Carltons list is a lot more talented than the Suns currently.

Dew is one of the big reasons we are performing so well. He has set us up to play defensive contested football. Are we great to watch. God no, but I would rather we are close and be in with a chance of winning than try and play expansive footy and be pummelled because our guys just aren't good enough at the moment.

You guys are basically what we were in 2016/17.

Why we have decided to go full on development mode with how we play now seems kind of weird.

What was the point of 2016/17 in hindsight? I thought we were trying to build a good culture by being competitive and fighting games out.

 

[Blue1980]

That's not a very convincing argument when you look at the ladder and see that GC is only 2 spots higher and have lost their last 5 matches. They really are very comparable. Heck, even my team is comparable...

Suns may not win another game, or maybe 1-2 more.

As the losses pile up there are bound to be floggings coming. Saturday night looms as one.

 

[Blue1980]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-there-is-hope-for-richmond-20100504-u691.html (one of the better articles on Richmond ever published)

Hardwick began with defeats by 56, 72, 55, 55, 39, 108 & 50 points - the worst record of any coach in history at that stage. Bookmakers paid out on Richmond for the spoon after Round 4!

The point is that the hardest part of the rebuild - for the fans - was at the beginning. Bolton is only now playing the kids, having prolonged the pain.

While I think we are awful at the moment and think Bolts and sos have a lot to answer for. He didn’t play the kids in 2016/17, because they didn’t exist at that point on our list. They now do.

 

[Blue1980]

We need a Hardwick type coach???
Like the type of coach you had in 2016??
Seriously people have such short memories. How many years did it take Richmond until they tasted real success (with Hardwick) at the helm, and even then it's highly questionable whether it was Hardwick or more the players and alot of things going right.
As an aside both Hardwick and Bolton were assistants to Clarkson

Personally I think Brendan's been hard done by as a result of the changing trends and a radical change in culture/whatever.
He took over in 2016. In his first two seasons with a playing group that had quite limited talent and star power he had the Blues in good positions at both halfway marks of the season ( i think 6 wins in 2016 and 5 in 2017) only for them to go on and lose almost all of their last 10 games but remain highly competetive in the majority of them.
He instilled a highly defensive game plan but as most commentators observed at the time, defense is the groundwork for a solid gameplan and only once he had established a solid defensive unit could they then work on the offensive part of the game plan.

Fast forward to 2018. Outside pressure was building and once again the longstanding impatience of supporters started to win out and force football departments hands. Recruiting recycled players and ready made top ups were indicators of superficial interests (and it seems that the infamous carlton impatience and lack of commitment to a rebuild was back again- just this time disguised as a "need to be more offensive", " time for them to take the next step", "year 3 of the rebuild" etc. etc.

In short Bolton was pressured to do things and make adjustments to his gameplan which he wasn't ready for/ didn't have the players for.
No point in playing offensive just for the sake of "playing offensive" if the players aren't up to it or you simply dont have the players for it. And that's exactly what happened.
a coach once again gave into outside pressure (again unfortunately for the thousandth time in football history) and unfortunately has had telling results.
So they've worked hard to fix things with some artifical fix ups this year, recruits, aggressive drafting and twitches to the gameplan but it's hard to really see the improvement.
In short, when the coach will be allowed to coach at his own pace and the clubs, football departments (including SOS) don't give into the emotionally charged impatience of supporter bases then they will normally see much more success in the right time at a normal pace.

Who’s decision was it though to change tack after 2017 to 2018? I can’t imagine Bolts just bowed down to outside pressure.

We tried the same early 2017, realized it wouldn’t work and went back to what suited us.

Last year everything went wrong, and we didn’t adjust the playing style accordingly, and somewhere along the line decided winning wasn’t going to even be seen as a focus because we were so bad and instead focused on development.

That has continued onto this year, with bursts of greater competitiveness, but also stubborn refusal to swing positional moves, and unbelievably flog Cripps even harder by surrounding him with Fisher, Dow and SPS at centre clearances most of the time.

Now if they are committed to this plan at all levels, they can’t sack Bolts as internally they would realize what we are doing makes it impossible to win any games unless the opposition implodes and we play out of our skins.

But it could be part of the big picture plan, just don’t expect us to win anymore games this season, and hope there is a pay off for all of this and it does speed up the kids progress.

 

[Blue1980]

Free hits?

You are still paying their salaries & they are clogging up spots on your list... meanwhile you get rid of the likes of Robertson for buggar all.

Pre SOS, there’s plenty to take him to task on for what he’s done without including what he hasn’t done

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Pre SOS, there’s plenty to take him to task on for what he’s done without including what he hasn’t done

SOS hasn't recruited ex-GWS players, most of whom have been delisted?

 

[PP34]

14 rounds in they had only debuted Weitering and Curnow. Silvagni and Cuningham then played a handful of games.

No McKay, Gowers, Glass-McCasker, Viojo-Rainbow, Smith, Foster - all 20 & under.

Onto the list came Wright (26), Phillips (24), Korcheck (24), Gorringe (23), Lamb (23), Kerridge (22/23), Sumner (22), Gallucci (22), Plowman (21)... and Carlton duly won 6 from 7 through April-June.

Bolton was the answer and Carlton was on the way. Some of us called it out as a false dawn against the tide of public opinion but were howled down.

Carlton is only now fielding the youngest teams of Bolton's tenure. It's a rebuild in ultra-slow motion.

Cuningham and McKay were dealing with injuries from memory. Almost certain McKay’s entire season was a write off due to a toe injury.

Other than Gowers the others aren’t even in the AFL anymore so I don’t think Bolton made a mistake by not playing them.

 

[PP34]

A huge part of this issue should be on SOS. I love how blues talk about SOS being good because he picked guys like Walsh.

A 2 year old could open up the herald sun and pick that. The really good list managers are the ones who find the diamonds in the rough and rookies. The top picks are the easy ones

Walsh was a standout midfielder but Lukosius and Rankine weren’t exactly obvious players to pass up on.

As for lower picks, Silvagni has drafted Charlie Curnow, Harry McKay, David Cuningham and Zac Fisher. Curnow and McKay were still obviously reasonably high picks but it’s still tough to nail those sort of picks.

 

[Blue1980]

SOS hasn't recruited ex-GWS players, most of whom have been delisted?

No the Mitch Robinson thing, that was before his time.

The part you mentioned is correct, we aren’t still paying their wages now though. We got some as salary dumps, but we didn’t pay any out early.

The salary dumps in and of themselves weren’t a bad idea, it’s the narrow focus on thinking that everything after a top 20 pick was akin to a free hit.

 

[10571z]

If Bolton goes the whole message you’ve sold to the players about being of the right direction ect goes with it.

Would really be deflating to accept Carlton have ruined it again

 

[Bulldog1954]

Ohh... you're talking about many years ago, ah yep. Stop gaps until the draft recruits came in. Not that hard to understand but whatever.

Stop gaps until the draft recruits come in? Couldn't you have drafted players instead of these "stop gaps"? At least with players you draft, even if they are late picks theres a chance they are good, rather then picking up proven duds like Shaw, Smedts, Mullett and O'Shea. Previously, you have said that the numerous recycled players were bought in so they could be replaced by high draft picks, how does that work? How did picking up Matt Shaw end up in him being replaced by a high draft pick that you wouldn't have had anyway?

 

[SickQwon]

Stop gaps until the draft recruits come in? Couldn't you have drafted players instead of these "stop gaps"? At least with players you draft, even if they are late picks theres a chance they are good, rather then picking up proven duds like Shaw, Smedts, Mullett and O'Shea. Previously, you have said that the numerous recycled players were bought in so they could be replaced by high draft picks, how does that work? How did picking up Matt Shaw end up in him being replaced by a high draft pick that you wouldn't have had anyway?

You make 50 odd list changes, you need to have stop gaps while you wait for the 3 consecutive years of draftees to come in, hack footballers were moved out faster than they could be replaced by high end draft picks.

 

[Ron The Bear]

While I think we are awful at the moment and think Bolts and sos have a lot to answer for. He didn’t play the kids in 2016/17, because they didn’t exist at that point on our list. They now do.

How then did Hardwick manage to debut 11 players 22 & under in his first year, all acquired via the draft?

Carlton shouldn’t have been trading picks at ground zero.

 

[Blue1980]

How then did Hardwick manage to debut 11 players 22 & under in his first year, all acquired via the draft?

Carlton shouldn’t have been trading picks at ground zero.

Richmond has more existing young talent on the list in 2010 than we did coming into 2016.

What picks are you saying we traded?

 

[Ambrosia]

How then did Hardwick manage to debut 11 players 22 & under in his first year, all acquired via the draft?

Carlton shouldn’t have been trading picks at ground zero.

How many of those 11 debutants are still at Richmond?

Debuting the likes of Dea, Nason, Roberts, Griffiths, Gourdis and Webberly was beneficial to Richmond how?

When Bolton took over Carlton they were bereft of young talent I don't see how playing blokes who aren't capable of playing AFL is helpful to a rebuild.

I've been critical of them picking up too many no hoper mature age types but I don't see what that has to do with Bolton.

 

[makrus]

I feel for bolts. He has a terrible win loss record which was never going to be great concidering where carlton were when he took over let alone the amount of players over turned in the last four years. That said with the closeness of some losses, the loss of games where we lead and now the two thumpings it really doesnt look good. I dont know if a sacking is a good thing as we have seen dimma and bucks under a lot of pressure with their teams not performing and then start getting results. Carlton arent collingwood or richmond though so who knows. All i know is i cant handle another performance like last week. :-(

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

What about SOS?

The guy is teflon coated.

Nah.I think the blues should stick with the master.

 

[DynaBass]

Nah.I think the blues should stick with the master.

The Crows agree.

 

[HolyWars]

This is Ratten all over again.

Similar threads started,then when he is sacked even more threads are started stating he was good and we should of kept him!

Gee I love this place and 7 days really is a long time in footy!

Agreed.

Ratten should never have been sacked. Bolton shouldn't be either. If Carlton do sack Bolton that means they've seriously learnt nothing from their past mistakes.

 

[Pie eyed]

Search engine is your friend and Internet warriors want blood than want to laugh at you after the fact!

We sacks Bolts tomorrow this place will have multiple threads in support of him claiming he was not at fault.

The fact is that Carlton have publicly backed him for the season. Results this week, next week and the week after should not see him sacked or heralded.
The Blues had a good game v Collingwood book ended by two atrocious games. Young side do this.
The end result after round 23 is what they should be looking at.

 

[Sprout]

Agreed.

Ratten should never have been sacked. Bolton shouldn't be either. If Carlton do sack Bolton that means they've seriously learnt nothing from their past mistakes.

This is a fine line though.

What if, for argument's sake, Bolton is out of his depth? How long do you keep him there simply to avoid the perception of "not learning from past mistakes"? If he's the wrong guy then he's the wrong guy.

From what I've seen of Carlton, there seems an unwillingness to throw the magnets around with too much emphasis placed on development of players in pre-determined roles. He seems a stubborn match day coach. I've also never been convinced that he is a great communicator. I don't think it's necessarily Goodwin's strength either but he has managed to get results in his first couple of years to generate belief amongst the players.

The next four weeks are huge in terms of Bolton's tenure. I simply don't see how they could justify keeping him on if they sit 1-12 in his fourth year as head coach.

 

[Dependlebury]

Hardwick and Buckley’s experience of being on the coaching precipice before returning excellent results has shown the importance of not only patience by the clubs involved but the importance of support staff. The head coach is an easy scapegoat but it looks like they are just an important cog in a complicated coaching wheel. Maybe Carlton do a clean out of their assistants and back Bolton in for next year and reassess then.

 

[HolyWars]

This is a fine line though.

What if, for argument's sake, Bolton is out of his depth? How long do you keep him there simply to avoid the perception of "not learning from past mistakes"? If he's the wrong guy then he's the wrong guy.

From what I've seen of Carlton, there seems an unwillingness to throw the magnets around with too much emphasis placed on development of players in pre-determined roles. He seems a stubborn match day coach. I've also never been convinced that he is a great communicator. I don't think it's necessarily Goodwin's strength either but he has managed to get results in his first couple of years to generate belief amongst the players.

The next four weeks are huge in terms of Bolton's tenure. I simply don't see how they could justify keeping him on if they sit 1-12 in his fourth year as head coach.

I think developing players for their role is far more advantageous in the long run. He no doubt learnt that off Clarkson. Hawthorn were being belted week in and week out when Clarkson first arrived much in the same fashion Carlton have been over the past couple of seasons with Bolton. Clarkson only survived because he had the backing of people like Dunstall when people like Kennett wanted him gone. This was because players were playing specific roles in the team, learning that role despite the short-term pain with results, and then finally pulling it all together. Even though Carlton were horrible on the weekend, they've no doubt progressed this season. They have some very good young players who have plenty of potential.

I think he's doing the right thing long-term.