Is It Time For Tough Decisions?

[HARKER]

His major weaknesses as I see them is he appears reluctant to back himself and attack, he is not particularly quick (without being particularly slow) and the physical side to his game needs a bit of polish. Its the lack of 'pack breaking' ability (Murph achieves it with speed and evasiveness, Judd with pure power) that keeps him out of the midfeild IMO.

Many of the above attributes should come with confidence and experience. Or we could have a similar situation that the Tiges have with Deledio... a very good player that never quite steps it up to the next level.

Also when I see our overall best 22, while Gibbs is in one for the first named each week, I dont see Gibbs as being a 'vital' player to our overall structure. His role has clearly been as the designated Half back/ Hodge type role (that he has taken over from Scotland probably due to Heaths advancing years). While this is an important role for the team, I see no reason why JR couldnt do this job as well as Gibbs for the next 5 years +

I couldn't have put it better myself (O.K. I could have but didn't have the time )

I'd love to disagree with you Mal, but that is a bullseye from my humble vantage point also.

Yes, our expectations are high and so they should be as Gibbs is better than the output he is giving us right now.

 

[Stamos]

I reckon you might have a different opinion of Gibbs if from the start of his career he had only been played in the middle or HFF with instructions of get the ball and get it into the forward 50 or kick a goal.

Ratten uses him as a stop gap measure due to limited other options, and because he know he can rely on Gibba to do the job. Against the Tiges, Deledio was on fire early, and keeping Richmond in the game. Ratts moved Gibbs onto him, game over.
Against Geelong, he was a clear BOG, playing on Chapman. Against the Saints, he beat Goddard. These 2 are widely considered to be in the top 10 players int he league.

In our 3 of our worst games, against Collingwood, Hawthorn and Fremantle, Gibbs going into the middle has changed the game, although hasn't been enough to get us over the line. I can understand why he has been played as a rebounding half back, due to injuries, but he is best in the guts. He has also been played woefully out of position against Motlop and Green, and although he struggled in both games, he did the team thing.
He will most likely be a captain of the club.


As for Walker, he has proven that he is a rebounding defender, and will be a gun. the last 2 weeks he has been a bit quieter/more off target, but then so has the whole team. I highly doubt anyone would give us adequate compensation to trade him.

 

[macbeth7]

Tough decisions will be made Waite will be 28 next year.Are you saying if Gold Coast offered up a top 10 pick we wouldn't take it.

I wouldn't like too see him go but if our windows in 2-3 years for a flag have we got the cattle.Carrazzo,Thornton and Walker are all tradable to get some descent draft picks.

Every Player is trade material only Judd,Kreuzer and Murphy are not.I would even think Gibbs would be if Adelaide or Port had a offer we couldn't refuse.

Yeah lets trade our more experienced players for draft picks when our premiership window is open.
Im pretty sure everyone would agree with me when i say that that would put us way behind where we are now.

Gibbs has resigned you muppet, wont be fielding any offers for him.
Waite was really becoming something until he did his knee last year.
Carrazzo, come on.
Surely this is all a joke and i have fallen for it ?????????

 

[Malifice]

Gibbs has resigned you muppet, wont be fielding any offers for him.

Contracted players are the best players to trade.

 

[Malifice]

As for Walker, he has proven that he is a rebounding defender, and will be a gun.

Rebounding yes, defender no.

I highly doubt anyone would give us adequate compensation to trade him.

With his injury history I would be inclined to agree.

 

[macbeth7]

Contracted players are the best players to trade.

Everyone sees gibbs as the next leader of the club, we worked so hard to resign him.

Fair enough contracted players are good to trade but when it comes to players like this. It just wouldnt happen.

 

[Malifice]

Everyone sees gibbs as the next leader of the club, we worked so hard to resign him.

Fair enough contracted players are good to trade but when it comes to players like this. It just wouldnt happen.

Great player no doubt.

Just structurally he offers little that couldnt be covered by another player.

JR can cover his role down back, he is the 4th best mid behind Murph, Judd and Simpson, and he hasnt exactly flourished the few times we have played him on a HFF.

Plus his trade value is massive.

Such as a very good young tall forward and a top ten pick.

 

[Salaryman]

Rebounding yes, defender no.

how many kicks did Hawkins get ?

 

[Salaryman]

Such as a very good young tall forward and a top ten pick.

From who?? Richmond? GC has pretty much narrowed the field.

Jack Riewoldt and pick 4 for Gibbs, I'm sure Richmond will jump at that

 

[Silvagnis]

Great player no doubt.

Just structurally he offers little that couldnt be covered by another player.

JR can cover his role down back, he is the 4th best mid behind Murph, Judd and Simpson, and he hasnt exactly flourished the few times we have played him on a HFF.

Plus his trade value is massive.

Such as a very good young tall forward and a top ten pick.

 

[Malifice]

how many kicks did Hawkins get ?

How many kicks does Hawkins ever get?

 

[Malifice]

Fail

Glad I wasted 15 minutes of my life giving a reasonably balanced analysis of my perceptions of Gibbs strengths and weaknesses, with a look to team structures and his role in the team, only to be met with such a detailed and well thought out response in return.

 

[Sin City]

How many kicks does Hawkins ever get?

15 touches the week before Walker played on him, 18 the week after. 8 the day Walker played on him. Twice he's kicked four goals in a game this year, once he's kicked three, didn't get a goal that day.

 

[Stamos]

Great player no doubt.

Just structurally he offers little that couldnt be covered by another player.

JR can cover his role down back, he is the 4th best mid behind Murph, Judd and Simpson, and he hasnt exactly flourished the few times we have played him on a HFF.

Plus his trade value is massive.

Such as a very good young tall forward and a top ten pick.

You can't cover that class. JR is not as good as Gibbs in defence, and I would strongly argue that Simpson is not as good as Gibbs, even though he is more consistent and should be leading our B&F.

Gibbs trade value may be massive, but it is not as high as his actual value. Judd's trade value was higher than Gibb's, and we won massively on that.

 

[Silvagnis]

Glad I wasted 15 minutes of my life giving a reasonably balanced analysis of my perceptions of Gibbs strengths and weaknesses, with a look to team structures and his role in the team, only to be met with such a detailed and well thought out response in return.

That's what you deserve for saying a class act is replaceable.

Barlow had his name all over a lace out pass from Roberton, but Gibbs found a way to work the Docker under the ball and outmark him.

Andrew McKay, SOS or Doull would have blushed at Gibbs' mark.

Classiest player on our list.

Maladvice would be a better username.

 

[Blues_Man]

Id be happy to trade him for value. While his run is fantastic, his disposal is still an issue, and while he backs himself, he tends to make bad decisions.

.

Yeah ..nah ...he's a keeper ...future Brownlow meddalist written all over him .

 

[Malifice]

15 touches the week before Walker played on him, 18 the week after. 8 the day Walker played on him. Twice he's kicked four goals in a game this year, once he's kicked three, didn't get a goal that day.

I could get probably get half a dozen touches playing in the current Geelong side!

Conventional wisdom (and most reports) suggests that Geelong are carrying Hawkins.

JR is not as good as Gibbs in defence,

Disagree. I reckon JR is a better defender (spoiling, tackling and physicaly), and provides better running rebound.

Gibbs is clearly the classier player though.

and I would strongly argue that Simpson is not as good as Gibbs, even though he is more consistent and should be leading our B&F.

You reckon Simmo is leading the B and F (ahead of Bryce... and Juddy) yet you also reckon Gibbs is the better player?

Our biggest problem is inconsistency.

That's what you deserve for saying a class act is replaceable.

With another class act. Or two.

Barlow had his name all over a lace out pass from Roberton, but Gibbs found a way to work the Docker under the ball and outmark him.

He also missed some very gettable goals. You're focussing on a single mark as your overall assesment of him as a player and his role to the team?

If WCE were to offer Kennedy back + Pick 5 (Cunnington 2009, Hurley 2008, Boak 2006, Pendulbury 2005, Franklin 2004, McLean 2003 etc) would you do it?

 

[Stamos]

You reckon Simmo is leading the B and F (ahead of Bryce... and Juddy) yet you also reckon Gibbs is the better player?




If WCE were to offer Kennedy back + Pick 5 (Cunnington 2009, Hurley 2008, Boak 2006, Pendulbury 2005, Franklin 2004, McLean 2003 etc) would you do it?

Simmo is 26 and played 123 matches, while Gibba is 21 with 79. Consistency comes with age & experience.

The deal was Kennedy, pick 3 and pick 20 for Judd and a 40-something pick we used on Armfield. If we were offered pick 3, 20 and Kennedy for Judd now I would still not do it. That's how much Judd is worth.

 

[Sin City]

I could get probably get half a dozen touches playing in the current Geelong side!

Conventional wisdom (and most reports) suggests that Geelong are carrying Hawkins

Regardless of whether or not they carry him Walker kept him to his worst game of the year. Credit where it's due.

 

[starchamber]

Yeah lets trade our more experienced players for draft picks when our premiership window is open.
Im pretty sure everyone would agree with me when i say that that would put us way behind where we are now.

Gibbs has resigned you muppet, wont be fielding any offers for him.
Waite was really becoming something until he did his knee last year.
Carrazzo, come on.
Surely this is all a joke and i have fallen for it ?????????

Premiership window is open for like 12 teams what makes you think we will win it this year or next.So what if Gibbs has resigned Fevola was signed alsne great player doesn't make a football side.

I can bet moppet if their was a deal to pick up 2 really good young players in positions needed the club would trade a future star like Gibbs.

2 or 3 pretty good players is better then 1 great player.

Trading is all about what you have to trade who are more likely to be traded as they passed their peak.The other reason is they be near untradable soon as age is getting on. They would be suited to a club who would give up a early pick who really need them now.

Our young core group like Henderson,Kreuzer,Yarran,Murphy,Gartlett,Bower etc are like 22 and under. Their best will be when they like 25. Drafting 4 or 5 early picks good young kids in the next 2 years will set up these players for several years.

Their no guarantee all these guys like Davies,Anderson,Browne,Tiller,Kerr,Okeefe will be good players as they were later picks in the draft.These picks rarely get players who can kick or have great skills.

You need to take the chance when you have it not when it's too late.Players picked in the top 30 is what you need we need a few more.

All those guys i said are trade bait only Waite would be a lost as he can play in several positions. We have players to cover all them Carrazzo,Walker,Thornton in what they do.

Waite would be a lost but in his career so far has he not had 1 blinder of a year.We have hoped for years of his potential but haven't seen it and time is a running out if it hasn't already.

He has been hit by injuries same as Walker but you still have to say it's a shame both never had that year to turn into stars like Kouta did and others before.

I would trade but not with spudrecruiter,knowing our luck would trade the picks and then recruits hacks with a broken back and a hump in their backs. A player whose blind who has leprosy or someone who played great footy like 5 years ago before he had 3 knee operations.

People got to understand who need to have a window open for longer then 2 years but like 8 years.

 

[The Exorcist]

Mal,

Agree that Gibbs doesn't have pack breaking ability and that he's reluctant to go forward. However, my position on Gibbs is more in line with the player he's developing into and the player he'll become than what he is now. He's only 21.

As for midfielders, Scotland is approaching 30, and Carrots is hardly a game breaking midfielder. It's the team we want in 2 years from now. Yes, Yarran & Lucas will one day form part of a sensational midfield, but that doesn't mean Gibbs is tradeable

Gibbs will be a stand up player that will have the ability to turn a game with few possessions. We've seen glimpses of that this year - it was the Gibbs move into the middle, against the Pies with Carlos, that got Carlton back into it. Gibbs was winning the hard ball and getting it out. His performances against Geelong & the Saints was also very good.

He's also kicked 6 goals in a SA final, so he can clearly play forward.

Yes, he's not overly quick, but he has that uncanny knack to find place and time which dilutes his need for pace. Also, he has the ability to move in traffic.

As for Walks, his disposal has improved considerably. His problem is that when he does a clanger, it's a bad clanger and one tends to remember that ahead of the previous 5 or 6 excellent disposals. Against Freo, he had 27 disposals in a losing team with a efficiency rate of 70% (okay - good), against North he had 20 possessions and an efficiency of 85% (excellent), against Melbourne 25 possessions and 88% efficiency (once again excellent), against West Coast 29 possessions and 76% efficiency.

While he's not the best decision maker in the team, I don't think it's necessarily poor. Sometimes under pressure he'll handball off too quickly, but when he has space he looks to run the lines and kick long, usually with precision. This is ideal as it moves the ball forward quickly and beats the flood, however when players up the ground aren't moving it creates problems and that's hardly Walk's fault.

Agree that JR & Bower are better defensively, and perhaps Walks might be better served on the wing or HFF, but I don't think any team can have enough offensive backmen - the more offensive backmen (provided the backline as a whole holds the opposition forward) will result in creating more opportunities to break the lines and beat the flood

Added to that, Walks on the whole has played very little football over the last 2.5 years, probably 17 or so games out of a possible 54, so he's only going to improve.

 

[Salaryman]

nicely summed up Max

 

[Malifice]

Mal,

Gibbs will be a stand up player that will have the ability to turn a game with few possessions. We've seen glimpses of that this year - it was the Gibbs move into the middle, against the Pies with Carlos, that got Carlton back into it. Gibbs was winning the hard ball and getting it out. His performances against Geelong & the Saints was also very good.

Agree with everything you said.

I love Gibbs. Its just that I see him as the pot of gold we can use to fix our glaring structural problems.

He has value. Arguably the most (or close to it) value of any player on our list

Trading Thornton? Browne? What are those blokes gonna net us? Third rounders fringe players at best.

Trade shit and receive shit. Trade gold and receive gold.

We need an injection of height and marking power up forward.

In 2 -3 years Hendo will be a lot more solid than he is now, but whos going to be helping him out? Waite and Ohailpin will be 30, Wiggins and Fisher long gone, and we would be asking big things of Hampson (who's yet to get a game this year) to play him as a permanent forward.

One of our back up rucks looks set to be traded, leaving Kruezer coming back next year after a knee injury, Warnock who hasn't had the best run with Injury, and Hammer who is sill developing (and has missed a fair bit of this year with injury).

Recruiting talls through the draft likely isn't going to work even if we could find a quality marking forward in the next two compromised drafts. We would be lucky to find a good one, and even if we did you can add @3 years as a minimum (no structure or window till 2014?) for them to come on. We could get really really lucky, but i personally don't like leaving it all down to an outside chance.

And I don't like the complete lack of structure up forward we have at the moment. Its a complete cluster **** that sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. Its not the kind of forward line that will push us all the way in September and certainly not one that will win us a flag that's for sure.

I'm simply proposing we target a young gun tall forward marking option in a trade (Adelaide have a few AND need midfielders with McLeod retiring, AND will have an early pick to spare... AND Bryce is a SA boy).

As a complete hypothetical think Tippett and pick 6 For Gibbs + pick 20 (or Jacobs - another SA boy).

Gibbs is fantastic player but imagine our list and set up circa 2011:

FF: Betts Tippett Yarran
HF: Houlihan Henderson Scotland
C: Lucas McLean Simpson
HB: Bower Waite Russell
FB: Army Jamison Joseph

Foll: Judd, Murphy, Kruezer

Int: Hampson, Carrazzo, O'hailpin, Walker

Not a bad 'spine' agreed?

Killer midfield, dangerous rucks, three attacking defenders, three tall defenders and two small fast defenders/ taggers. Two dangerous smalls and two dangerous talls up forward. Centre line has speed grunt and class, and our two best kicks on the HFF.

Depth:

Pick 6 from 2010 developing in the twos.
Warnock as a back up ruck,
Casboult and Austin as back up tall forwards,
Gartlett and Kerr back up small forwards,
White, Davies, Donaldson as backup defenders,
Robinson, Hadley Grigg and Cachia back up mids/ centers.
Add Dylan Buckley hitting the Gym for another year before we pick him up in 2012.

 

[Stamos]

Gibbs is fantastic player but imagine our list and set up circa 2011:

FF: Betts Tippett Yarran
HF: Houlihan Henderson Scotland
C: Lucas McLean Simpson
HB: Bower Waite Russell
FB: Army Jamison Joseph

Foll: Judd, Murphy, Kruezer

Int: Hampson, Carrazzo, O'hailpin, Walker

Not a bad 'spine' agreed?

I like Tippet, but that team looks worse than what we've got now.

 

[Dramoth]

Now that Australia has been knocked out of the world cup... do I support one of the South American teams or do I support the sheep shaggers across the tasman?

Also can someone please explain this strange feeling of being elated that we won while also feeling completely gutted that we were knocked out of the world cup?