Is Nick Daicos The Best First Year Player Of All Time?

[PieLebo87]

1) To get a disposal from a kick in you had to first kick it to yourself and then kick it again. You couldnt just run out of the box and play on like now. So the first kick from a kick in was not a disposal, your 2nd kick was. It was also done a lot less because the defender was closer and could run towards you as soon as you did that first kick so you had less time for the 2nd actual disposal. Now you can just run out of the box and kick and its is what players do in the vast majority of kick ins.

2) I clearly say that a kick in doesnt reflect the players ability to get involved in a game. Good kick ins are worth their weight in gold. Someone who takes fantastic kick ins can have a big impact in the game but its not through their own efforts rather the team gifts them their disposals or the opposition's misses gift them their disposals.

3) An outside player earns his disposals by running to the right spots. So no, they are nothing like kick ins.

4) The hawthorn example was to show an extreme possibility not specifically about nick daicos.

5) Im not bashing ND at all actually. If you read the last part of my post you'll see i said he had a fantastic year and that the whole point of removing disposals from kick ins is to equivalently compare his stats to past players.

6) Playing on from a kick in isnt to invite pressure. The defender starts 25m away and you have an eternity in the goalsquare to choose where you want to kick it. That is naturally going to result in a higher disposal efficiency than most kicks around the ground where the opposition is usually closer and you have less time to spot a target.

7) The kid has plenty of weaknesses in his game but he also has some massive weapons. The biggest of which is his running ability and quick decision making.

8) This is a thread about whether NDs first year was the GOAT, so you should expect that even though he had a fantastic first year, and ill say it again in case you didnt read it: ND has a fantastic first year, when comparing stats to past players his need to be adjusted for changes to the rules re: kick ins. See point 1) if you have forgotten what that was. If this thread was title "Did nick daicos have a great first year?" then we wouldnt need to mention these things as he clearly did and comparing stats with past players' first years would be irrelevant.

Let’s break down how much easier forwards have it now with the 6/6/6 rule. Curnow is a fraud of a Coleman medalist!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I need an invite to the exclusive Meteoric Rise punter’s tipping advice/guide club!

You’d have lost money if you followed all of my footy bets in 2022.

If you followed me in certain specific markets - most of the major ones, you would normally be pretty safe, but not likely to make enough to retire on.

 

[PieLebo87]

It is not pointless at all. Removing kick ins that are counted as disposals from all players gives us all a better understanding of the amount of traditional disposals players are recording.

Why would you want people not to seek to understand the actual picture?

It’s an actual stat though, that’s the actual picture. People can run that exercise and try using it to back their arguments, but it’ll just look silly, unless we’re talking a player actually making a mockery of the system. Daicos wasn’t even Collingwood’s designated kicker this year, he was behind Moore. People are just nitpicking.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It’s an actual stat though, that’s the actual picture. People can run that exercise and try using it to back their arguments, but it’ll just look silly, unless we’re talking a player actually making a mockery of the system. Daicos wasn’t even Collingwood’s designated kicker this year, he was behind Moore. People are just nitpicking.

I don’t think people are trying to make arguments against Daicos here. We are just trying to get the correct picture to answer the thread question. The correct picture is his traditional disposals(non kick ins) are inflated by over 2 per match by the inclusion of his kick ins. It leaves him with an average of roughly 23.6 traditional disposals, around 6.4 of those contested.

Nobody is saying he is no good because of that, they are impressive numbers. But they are the right numbers to use in any comparison.

 

[patmatcat]

Flag is a nice, but not sure you can tack it on given Selwood probably wasn't in the best 10 players that day.

Selwood also didn't finish in the Top 15 in the Carji Greeves that year - Daicos should finish in the Top 5 (at worst) in Collingwood's BnF this year.

Thing with Selwood, was that he started to lead the team in his first season, with blokes like Harley, Scarlett, Ablett, Johnson, Ling, Bartel, Ottens, Mooney, Chapman following.

 

[nickcat0]

I find it an extremely weak argument against Nick Daicos. It’s almost like it’s the only ‘negative’ people can find about him as a player in his first season and have latched onto it. I’ve never seen people talk about players taking kick outs when discussion/making comparisons about possessions averages/totals before. Literally the first time I’ve heard this get discussed. It’s not even a valid argument because it’s an actual stat lol people should call him a weak possession getter instead of subtracting it to prove a comparison

It’s an actual stat though, that’s the actual picture. People can run that exercise and try using it to back their arguments, but it’ll just look silly, unless we’re talking a player actually making a mockery of the system. Daicos wasn’t even Collingwood’s designated kicker this year, he was behind Moore. People are just nitpicking.

Okay, I'll put it in black and white. Daicos had a great first season, but his stats are inflated because he took some kick-ins, and also floated across the backline picking up cheap/easy possessions.

A great first season, and he'll probably go on to have an excellent career, but he's not the Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Gary Ablett rolled into one character that many Collingwood fans seem to think.

 

[Lingsface]

If it is the best first season I wouldn’t be surprised if Ashcroft has a better year next year.

 

[Winky]

Forget stats!! Just on the quality of play alone including decision making, team play and execution of disposals Daicos is superb! Have to say that Judd and Walsh are up there too though. Being in WA we didn’t get to see many debut seasons of the likes of Matthews etc in the old VFL unfortunately but probably best to stay in the AFL era anyway

It’s an actual stat though, that’s the actual picture. People can run that exercise and try using it to back their arguments, but it’ll just look silly, unless we’re talking a player actually making a mockery of the system. Daicos wasn’t even Collingwood’s designated kicker this year, he was behind Moore. People are just nitpicking.

 

[gouki88]

Okay, I'll put it in black and white. Daicos had a great first season, but his stats are inflated because he took some kick-ins, and also floated across the backline picking up cheap/easy possessions.

A great first season, and he'll probably go on to have an excellent career, but he's not the Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Gary Ablett rolled into one character that many Collingwood fans seem to think.

Given he had almost 600 non-kick in disposals, I do find that a funny line of argument.

I also love the idea that there are cheap/easy possessions, very interesting. That’s why there are so many (teenage) flankers who can do that, right?

 

[Piggy Smalls]

Rowell should have won the Rising Star in his 4 game debut year, finally something that you and I agree on!

You are Serong about this

 

[loki04]

He definitely has it. His father was never blessed with speed, brute strength or jumping ability but he had an innate quality which separated him from almost every other player in the country.
Nick could very well be your most important player such is the way Macrae likes to structure up his team. And for a first year player, that is almost unheard of.

Nicks speed is a bit underrated he is quicker then Pendles and your average paced mids but not lightning like some other either.

Also not sure if your aware he carried an ankle injury from round 2 that requires surgery in off season to repair. Hardly running at your best with a injury to teh ankle.

Magpies young gun carrying injury

"It's something that I'll probably have to carry throughout the whole year."

www.google.com

 

[gouki88]

Nicks speed is a bit underrated he is quicker then Pendles and your average paced mids but not lightning like some other either.

Also not sure if your aware he carried an ankle injury from round 2 that requires surgery in off season to repair. Hardly running at your best with a injury to teh ankle.

Magpies young gun carrying injury

"It's something that I'll probably have to carry throughout the whole year."

www.google.com

His speed over 5-10m is legit, and his agility is elite. He is nothing like the Pendles / Bont type smooth mid.

 

[loki04]

His speed over 5-10m is legit, and his agility is elite. He is nothing like the Pendles / Bont type smooth mid.

Yup you can see it in that highlights I posted Burns off essendon mids one being Merrett who's not slow.

 

[Red_man2008]

I think this will be something to look back on if he goes into the midfield full
Time. Could be anything from McGrath (low point) to Callum mills

14

Callum Mills

Age

27

Ht

188cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

7.4

5star

M

5.3

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

18.4

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

3.4

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

17.0

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.8

5star

CL

1.2

4star

(high point)

 

[gouki88]

I think this will be something to look back on if he goes into the midfield full
Time. Could be anything from McGrath (low point) to Callum mills (high point)

LOL at Callum Mills being the high point comparison

The trajectories are nothing alike. He is already better than McGrath

 

[Fadge]

LOL at Callum Mills being the high point comparison

The trajectories are nothing alike. He is already better than McGrath

Low point = Sam Walsh.

High Point = GOAT.

 

[Red_man2008]

LOL at Callum Mills being the high point comparison

The trajectories are nothing alike. He is already better than McGrath

Yes he is better than McGrath as a HBF but I’m comparing the two because his attempts to go into the midfield have been pretty poor. While I’m comparing to mills because he had a few years as a HB first then moved into the midfield and is now a top 10 midfielder in the comp. Starting point of half back is the point here.

 

[loki04]

I think this will be something to look back on if he goes into the midfield full
Time. Could be anything from McGrath (low point) to Callum mills (high point)

Look I think Mills is a quality player but if Daicos only hits that as a high in his career there is going to be a lot of disappointed pies fans.

Buckley also started off HB.
Dangerfield was a HB u18 that transitioned to midfield at afl too.

It's not an unusual spot for a young mid to do his first years.

 

[lordbob]

Low point = Sam Walsh.

High Point = GOAT.

Imagine the pressure on a 2nd year player with your supporters expecting you to be better than matthews haha poor kid cant win.

He's gonna need to average 30 disposals and 3 goals a game.

 

[loki04]

Yes he is better than McGrath as a HBF but I’m comparing the two because his attempts to go into the midfield have been pretty poor. While I’m comparing to mills because he had a few years as a HB first then moved into the midfield and is now a top 10 midfielder in the comp. Starting point of half back is the point here.

McGrath is 178cm vs Naicos 184cm talking a small mid vs a medium sized mid.

I've always been wary of pick 1s who are undersized, imo they typically have limited scope.

 

[loki04]

Imagine the pressure on a 2nd year player with your supporters expecting you to be better than matthews haha poor kid cant win.

He's gonna need to average 30 disposals and 3 goals a game.

No one expects him to be Goat but I think Mills is a little too low balling his potential.

 

[gouki88]

Imagine the pressure on a 2nd year player with your supporters expecting you to be better than matthews haha poor kid cant win.

He's gonna need to average 30 disposals and 3 goals a game.

Haha, I don't think anyone seriously expects him to be the GOAT, but there is a middle ground between Callum Mills being the best case scenario & him being the GOAT.

He reminds me of GAJ & Greg Williams. I'm not expecting multiple Brownlow's, but I think he is capable of being the best midfielder of his generation. That's not what I expect, but it's what I think he's capable of.

 

[guruisatiger]

Theres plenty of examples of talented key forwards emerging in their teens-early 20’s in an era where AFL wasn’t a professional sport and key forwards weren’t contending with a zone defence and often an extra sitting on then.

No key forward is doing that these days - guys like Lockett and Hudson would probably follow a similar trajectory to someone like Logan McDonald - and would probably spend plenty of time in the reserves.

You can watch games from the 70’s and 80’s and see why young key forwards could kick bags of goals - the standard of footy was shocking.

The key forward back then would get punched in the back of their head everytime they went for a mark,much tougher to play in those days,,no roofs ,on stadium no drainage, played on mud dumps etc etc

 

[guruisatiger]

Billy James 1920 best first and last year ever

 

[La Dispute]

The key forward back then would get punched in the back of their head everytime they went for a mark,much tougher to play in those days,,no roofs ,on stadium no drainage, played on mud dumps etc etc

And that was because full backs were often slow, stocky plodders.

Gun local footballers still kick big bags on muddy grounds these days - it’s not a whole lot different from the best VFL forwards dominating as the deepest target.