Jewish Peoples and Israel - Are They Hypocrites???

[little graham]

Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.. Statistically the death count of Palestinians supports this..

He was just bullying you hoping you didn't know what genocide was to make his point.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

[tazaa]

He was just bullying you hoping you didn't know what genocide was to make his point.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

A, B, C qualify. D is a flow on from C. Thankully can rule out the last point.

 

[little graham]

Thankully can rule out the last point.

Happened here and Israel happily traded with us.

 

[Redalert]

People need to be compensated for property loss or victims of crime.

How far back do you back with that though? It ends up being a rabbit hole, there isn't a single nation on Earth that hasn't committed some kind of atrocity against another.

The Balkans alone would take a century to sought out.

 

[Power Raid]

How far back do you back with that though? It ends up being a rabbit hole, there isn't a single nation on Earth that hasn't committed some kind of atrocity against another.

The Balkans alone would take a century to sought out.

a government is only responsible for its own liabilities. how old is Israel?

further possession is 9/10th of the law meaning possession is lawful ownership except the actual lawful owner. meaning only those dispossessed can make a claim (with exceptions of course).

 

[fishardansin]

How far back do you back with that though? It ends up being a rabbit hole, there isn't a single nation on Earth that hasn't committed some kind of atrocity against another.

The Balkans alone would take a century to sought out.

It is happening NOW. The political entity that invaded Palestine and then allowed its citizens to commandeer homes is still in existence.

For example, we can't expect Rome to pay for its crimes because it no longer exists.

There are still people around who have legal proof that they or their grandparents are the actual owners of homes and property that Israel has allowed to be stolen. That needs to be returned, immediately. If Israel has to pay financial compensation to its citizens to make it happen then so be it.

There are millions of Palestinians who have been expelled from their own land. That needs to end and the right of return needs to be granted.

Once everyone who wants to is living there and all property is returned we need to stop this crap about a two-state solution. An end to the apartheid should occur in a similar manner to what we have seen in South Africa with a truth-telling commission. It would not be a big surprise if there is white flight from the new nation like we saw in South Africa. I also wonder if the USA will continue to fund a majority Muslim country like they have Israel!

Considering Israel vs Palestine will probably cause a lot of conflict, they can call it Canaan, because Palestinians and Jews both descend from Canaanites.

 

[JoondalupJ]

It is happening NOW. The political entity that invaded Palestine and then allowed its citizens to commandeer homes is still in existence.

For example, we can't expect Rome to pay for its crimes because it no longer exists.

There are still people around who have legal proof that they or their grandparents are the actual owners of homes and property that Israel has allowed to be stolen. That needs to be returned, immediately. If Israel has to pay financial compensation to its citizens to make it happen then so be it.

There are millions of Palestinians who have been expelled from their own land. That needs to end and the right of return needs to be granted.

Once everyone who wants to is living there and all property is returned we need to stop this crap about a two-state solution. An end to the apartheid should occur in a similar manner to what we have seen in South Africa with a truth-telling commission. It would not be a big surprise if there is white flight from the new nation like we saw in South Africa. I also wonder if the USA will continue to fund a majority Muslim country like they have Israel!

Considering Israel vs Palestine will probably cause a lot of conflict, they can call it Canaan, because Palestinians and Jews both descend from Canaanites.

I think your a bit off target there , Palestine were Philistines I think?
They invaded the areas over 3 or 4 thousand years ago, in the time of David Israelites, and other Semitic tribes (Arabs I guess?)
It might surprise you to know that archaeology found evidence of King David, because he was actually not proven historic until recently.

He was written about but not found through the diggings.
But I don't know exactly when or how, but this I've read in the last 12 months regarding Jerusalem, in a book simply about Jerusalem's history .
But digs have found evidence of a person in history that is or could be him..

So the Palestinian argument if you want to go back that far, they were invaders.

Or just back to Rome invading everyone in the known world , and if you didn't comply your were wiped off the face of existence. Were different times, but I guess humans are still humans.

I would also add that the Israelis', Jews, are one of the most persecuted peoples in the world. They are also living in a very confusing world of being moved out of their original homelands many times, over thousands of years.
The Assyrians did it to them, strangely from where the Iranians came from now or in that region, Babylon.
They allowed the Jewish people to return to their homelands from Babylon in the earlier ancient times.

Then you got the Romans, who removed them and persecuted them, killed them. They were a people spread everywhere.

And probably the most difficult race or religion of people on earth to understand. I certainly don't but their history is from that place.

Takes a lot of understanding and learning, and no one will get compensated for Israelis' going home.

Especially after those Aryans thought they had the right to kill most of them. And its happened for centuries not just by that mad dog Adolph.

But for me, and I am not Jewish, if you read and follow history from all angles, there is no doubt , that where Israel sits 2023, is exactly where they came from. And there is no disputing it. All other debates about peace are legit, but the hatred the other way is mind boggling.

What has me curious, is who were the Sea Peoples who caused death and mayhem across that region long ago, were they Greek regional people or were they very early warlike Western European tribes just learning what raiding was all about.
As far as I know, the Sea People have only been speculated on, as to who they were, or if they were some mix of early tribes of very deadly raiders. who could use boats?
Now if that's changed, and there is a concrete theory or fact about them, it'd be bloody curious to see who they were. Sea Peoples that's what they were known as. But they must have been a horror to behold. They terrified all those powers in that region!

 

[JoondalupJ]

i've been researching a general Erskine

George Erskine - Wikipedia

He's one of the heroes that landed at Normandy on d day to save all those Jewish folk from evil Nazis. He commanded the British 7th armored division at Normandy. He was also a personal assistant to the queen for about ten years in the fifties and sixties. He also ran camps just like Auschwitz when he was in command of British forces in Kenya. He also bombed women and children, destroyed crops.Millions of bombs were dropped on civilians while he was in charge in Kenya. The worst atrocities of that campaign were committed under his command. He had leaflets dropped depicting African women beaten r*ped and babies hacked out to show what happens if you oppose British rule. He ran some pretty brutal camps in Kenya, slave camps the Germans would of been impressed with. He could be credited with hundreds of thousands of murders.

The guy was a monster. For his war crimes he was given a cushy job as a personal assistant to the queen. He was one of heroes who saved the world on june sixth 1944 after all and saved all those Jewish folks from them concentration camps.

Don't know how right you are, I have no idea , but you better describe the actual events of what happened who was slashing children, killing babies, raping and bashing women , was it Soldiers????

And all the sub-ordinates who were involved if it was soldiers, , facts , are essential when you make that kind of accusation.

But describing all the atrocities done by human beings to each other has happened for ever and you need to really have information!
To back up some story about murder mayhem and about a fellow who became the queens assistant? So give us that info mate..

No I guess you can't really know, so why would he not be arrested, and perhaps you could remember atrocities with names from concentration camps.

What about Mugabe, and the killing fields of his own?
What about the Mau Mau in Kenya.

Its a big story to cover, to name every individual that did this and prove it, 79 years since D Day.

But it'd be good to get the places and names and this Erskine man's full information.
That's a big accusation.

 

[Leeda]

and who said history is irrelevant..? the spice of life is that we all eventually learn to live in tandem..
But the Israelis and Palestinians are defeating their own purpose of peace and democracy...

How did the Jews become so hated or persistently obnoxious and firing weapons on people who are as
persistently ridiculous and unconscionable as they are... ie Palestinian... this is thousands of years of mercury and being
on 'touch paper' ignite at any point in time with no warning...

I get where Antony Blinken is coming from.. it is tiring,, scary, and you just want to shake them literally and tell them all 'to just
'take a chill pill...

 

[JoondalupJ]

and who said history is irrelevant..? the spice of life is that we all eventually learn to live in tandem..
But the Israelis and Palestinians are defeating their own purpose of peace and democracy...

How did the Jews become so hated or persistently obnoxious and firing weapons on people who are as
persistently ridiculous and unconscionable as they are... ie Palestinian... this is thousands of years of mercury and being
on 'touch paper' ignite at any point in time with no warning...

I get where Antony Blinken is coming from.. it is tiring,, scary, and you just want to shake them literally and tell them all 'to just
'take a chill pill...

If only!

 

[Power Raid]

and who said history is irrelevant..? the spice of life is that we all eventually learn to live in tandem..
But the Israelis and Palestinians are defeating their own purpose of peace and democracy...

How did the Jews become so hated or persistently obnoxious and firing weapons on people who are as
persistently ridiculous and unconscionable as they are... ie Palestinian... this is thousands of years of mercury and being
on 'touch paper' ignite at any point in time with no warning...

I get where Antony Blinken is coming from.. it is tiring,, scary, and you just want to shake them literally and tell them all 'to just
'take a chill pill...

what I find interesting is, the Palestinians and Israelis I know get along just fine with each other

both recognise the fringe elements are nuts


perhaps we should be listening to the people rather than the media reports

 

[fishardansin]

I think your a bit off target there , Palestine were Philistines I think?
They invaded the areas over 3 or 4 thousand years ago, in the time of David Israelites, and other Semitic tribes (Arabs I guess?)
It might surprise you to know that archaeology found evidence of King David, because he was actually not proven historic until recently.

He was written about but not found through the diggings.
But I don't know exactly when or how, but this I've read in the last 12 months regarding Jerusalem, in a book simply about Jerusalem's history .
But digs have found evidence of a person in history that is or could be him..

So the Palestinian argument if you want to go back that far, they were invaders.

Or just back to Rome invading everyone in the known world , and if you didn't comply your were wiped off the face of existence. Were different times, but I guess humans are still humans.

I would also add that the Israelis', Jews, are one of the most persecuted peoples in the world. They are also living in a very confusing world of being moved out of their original homelands many times, over thousands of years.
The Assyrians did it to them, strangely from where the Iranians came from now or in that region, Babylon.
They allowed the Jewish people to return to their homelands from Babylon in the earlier ancient times.

Then you got the Romans, who removed them and persecuted them, killed them. They were a people spread everywhere.

And probably the most difficult race or religion of people on earth to understand. I certainly don't but their history is from that place.

Takes a lot of understanding and learning, and no one will get compensated for Israelis' going home.

Especially after those Aryans thought they had the right to kill most of them. And its happened for centuries not just by that mad dog Adolph.

But for me, and I am not Jewish, if you read and follow history from all angles, there is no doubt , that where Israel sits 2023, is exactly where they came from. And there is no disputing it. All other debates about peace are legit, but the hatred the other way is mind boggling.

What has me curious, is who were the Sea Peoples who caused death and mayhem across that region long ago, were they Greek regional people or were they very early warlike Western European tribes just learning what raiding was all about.
As far as I know, the Sea People have only been speculated on, as to who they were, or if they were some mix of early tribes of very deadly raiders. who could use boats?
Now if that's changed, and there is a concrete theory or fact about them, it'd be bloody curious to see who they were. Sea Peoples that's what they were known as. But they must have been a horror to behold. They terrified all those powers in that region!

Lol. Palestine is the name Rome gave to the area. Philistines were most likely settles from the Aegean who settled there as part of the bronze age collapse.

However, genetic tests shows that Philistines descend from Canaanites and so do Jews who aren't too European. .

There is nearly no historical realities in the Jewish bible. Both Jews and Palestinians identity with different things from the past that suits their modern political battles. That doesn't make it true.

Canaanite, Jews, Israelis, Samaritans .. etc have always evolved their religious beliefs. Prior to 2nd temple Judaism it was unrecognisable to what we now know. 2nd Temple Judsism was broke into countless sects, with some if those starting Christianity and Islam. Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant.

 

[Power Raid]

Lol. Palestine is the name Rome gave to the area. Philistines were most likely settles from the Aegean who settled there as part of the bronze age collapse.

However, genetic tests shows that Philistines descend from Canaanites and so do Jews who aren't too European. .

There is nearly no historical realities in the Jewish bible. Both Jews and Palestinians identity with different things from the past that suits their modern political battles. That doesn't make it true.

Canaanite, Jews, Israelis, Samaritans .. etc have always evolved their religious beliefs. Prior to 2nd temple Judaism it was unrecognisable to what we now know. 2nd Temple Judsism was broke into countless sects, with some if those starting Christianity and Islam. Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant.

the reality is history is history and not relevant to "people" living in harmony

but it does serve a political purpose for division, hatred and mobilisation



personally I have never heard of such a ridiculous notion, in today's concept of anti racism, to form a state based on race

 

[fishardansin]

the reality is history is history and not relevant to "people" living in harmony

but it does serve a political purpose for division, hatred and mobilisation



personally I have never heard of such a ridiculous notion, in today's concept of anti racism, to form a state based on race

Can't agree more. To set up an ethnostate based around religion in the middle of the 20th century is crazy. While I understand that the history of Jews in Europe does make the situation abnormal it is still inexcusable. This is why the best solution now is:

1. Right of return to all Palestinians.
2. Return property that can be proven to have been lost due to invasion.
3. Single state democracy free from apartheid.

Probably need some sort of truth commission too.

 

[Power Raid]

Can't agree more. To set up an ethnostate based around religion in the middle of the 20th century is crazy. While I understand that the history of Jews in Europe does make the situation abnormal it is still inexcusable. This is why the best solution now is:

1. Right of return to all Palestinians.
2. Return property that can be proven to have been lost due to invasion.
3. Single state democracy free from apartheid.

Probably need some sort of truth commission too.

Australia is going around the nation sorting out property right settlements with the indigenous

This is the right template in a market economy rather than returning land, as this just perpetuates the challenge

But pay up and pay up handsomely and in a way encourages integration

 

[fishardansin]

Australia is going around the nation sorting out property right settlements with the indigenous

This is the right template in a market economy rather than returning land, as this just perpetuates the challenge

But pay up and pay up handsomely and in a way encourages integration

Returning homes allows people to live where their family did. Allowing that to stand is genocide.

 

[Power Raid]

Returning homes allows people to live where their family did. Allowing that to stand is genocide.

in the case where only a short time has passed, then sure

but where one has change of title and or the passage of time, then history is history. it is no different to building a freeway and compulsory land acquisition in that their is a property settlement which over rides "where family lived"

 

[fishardansin]

in the case where only a short time has passed, then sure

but where one has change of title and or the passage of time, then history is history. it is no different to building a freeway and compulsory land acquisition in that their is a property settlement which over rides "where family lived"

If they still hold the title, then the Palestinians get their home back. If someone has granted title to someone else in the last 60 years then bad luck. Those who granted the title can choose to compensate the coloniser who loses their investment.

We're not talking about ancient history here. The family that was dispossessed still exists, has paperwork and the political body that represents their dispossession still exists. It is not complicated. Israel can decide if they just kick the family living there now out or compensate them. It is not the problem of the family who had their home stolen when they were refugees.

 

[Power Raid]

If they still hold the title, then the Palestinians get their home back. If someone has granted title to someone else in the last 60 years then bad luck. Those who granted the title can choose to compensate the coloniser who loses their investment.

We're not talking about ancient history here. The family that was dispossessed still exists, has paperwork and the political body that represents their dispossession still exists. It is not complicated. Israel can decide if they just kick the family living there now out or compensate them. It is not the problem of the family who had their home stolen when they were refugees.

the concept of indefeasible title is valid except in the case of fraud

that fraud relates to the person on the title, not the issuer of the title (being the state)

no different to the challenges and solutions for australia and indigenous people's property right breaches

 

[fishardansin]

the concept of indefeasible title is valid except in the case of fraud

that fraud relates to the person on the title, not the issuer of the title (being the state)

no different to the challenges and solutions for australia and indigenous people's property right breaches

My principal holds in Australia too. We should be handing back a lot than we have.

 

[Power Raid]

My principal holds in Australia too. We should be handing back a lot than we have.

we have legal principles, related to property rights, for a reason. it creates certainty and continuity even through coups, regime change, war and other tumultuous events.

these principles have international recognition.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Lol. Palestine is the name Rome gave to the area. Philistines were most likely settles from the Aegean who settled there as part of the bronze age collapse.

However, genetic tests shows that Philistines descend from Canaanites and so do Jews who aren't too European. .

There is nearly no historical realities in the Jewish bible. Both Jews and Palestinians identity with different things from the past that suits their modern political battles. That doesn't make it true.

Canaanite, Jews, Israelis, Samaritans .. etc have always evolved their religious beliefs. Prior to 2nd temple Judaism it was unrecognisable to what we now know. 2nd Temple Judsism was broke into countless sects, with some if those starting Christianity and Islam. Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant.

Well my information came from a book on the History of Jerusalem and another about the crusades history,
and another about the West and Eastern historical differences in development.

But as far as I know the Roman naming of Palestine may be true, your way.

Now just so we don't all get too knowledgeable, I am not, about things 2000 years ago, with the Romans and naming things.

Wouldn't we wonder why a Roman governor or a Roman Emperor or any Roman authority would be naming Palestine as Palestine.

i would wonder if the name Philistine had come up in that time. Maybe, maybe not. you may know where it comes from?
It may be in the pronunciation?

You said Aegean region, for the Philistines, they were outsiders
in the land of Israel, or Judah which name they called themselves.
There were lots of Greek history in the M/E from a few thousand years past.
Invaders, travellers, marauders, kings and all sorts. Pretty influential.

Historic realities in the Jewish bible? I have no idea, but do you have any opinion of the King David story?

You say that Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant, I would say, I am not sure?

But I'd add I would believe that Jews are also indigenous to that area as well. Maybe even the same.

Obviously the Jews were, kicked, is perhaps the only way to describe it, all over the world to different places
over thousands of years .
By Assyrians and others and returned by Babylonians to their homeland , lived together in Jerusalem
with Arabs who could also be made up of Aegean peoples Greeks Turks (Sea Peoples????) ,
then were damned by the Romans, and attacked in earlier history by Philistines???

Who too could be made up of all sorts of earlier tribes and races. history is a little blind to the exact.

But we are talking about the hypocrisy of Jews claiming a homeland, aren't we.

You see for me they are in their home.

Now to describe Israel as the home or State of a religion, is not exact, Arabs live in Israel also , and the fact
that the religion this tribe stuck to, gave them some glue, of attachment to each other though thousands of
years being apart over centuries of separation

So in that time frame like all humans they developed racial traits through their generations
of people from where they had been able to livefor long periods, like German Jews or Russian Jews.
Heavens even Ethiopian Jews , if you get my meaning they would all be very culturally different
even racially different over generations?

Coming back home, started well before 1948. And staying home for some was occurring before the Romans.

So I don't think they are a Jewish Religious State, I think they area mix of mainly Jewish faith people
but others who have converted live there too, what I am saying is that I am positive they are
in their rightful and long term in human history, home!

Whether Philistines were named Palestinians or not is of no consequence the Jew, Iraelite, Canaanite Samaritan have evolved their biblical stories
to suit todays politics? I would not know.

I am not Jewish, and I believe the Palestine situation should be solved , and I do believe all those
different tribes what ever they called themselves that one did develop some ancient older faith than
Christianity and Islam and it started there, way before the Romans.

And that is where they came from!

Along with who ever other tribes were and their own cultures of religious ways , including Egyptians who
went into the area on occasions.

So I see the Israel Palestine conflict now so mashed in falsehoods, as mad and as foolish as Putin
and the Ukraine invasion.
There has to be a resolution that stops the killing in that region. Claims of arguing "this is mine" or "no this is mine",
are a waste.
They all are from there, so maybe politics and weaponry and money, make the anti Semitic flavour
float around the ideals of those observing. Israel is their home they belong and belonged there!

 

[fishardansin]

Well my information came from a book on the History of Jerusalem and another about the crusades history,
and another about the West and Eastern historical differences in development.

But as far as I know the Roman naming of Palestine may be true, your way.

Now just so we don't all get too knowledgeable, I am not, about things 2000 years ago, with the Romans and naming things.

Wouldn't we wonder why a Roman governor or a Roman Emperor or any Roman authority would be naming Palestine as Palestine.

i would wonder if the name Philistine had come up in that time. Maybe, maybe not. you may know where it comes from?
It may be in the pronunciation?

You said Aegean region, for the Philistines, they were outsiders
in the land of Israel, or Judah which name they called themselves.
There were lots of Greek history in the M/E from a few thousand years past.
Invaders, travellers, marauders, kings and all sorts. Pretty influential.

Historic realities in the Jewish bible? I have no idea, but do you have any opinion of the King David story?

You say that Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant, I would say, I am not sure?

But I'd add I would believe that Jews are also indigenous to that area as well. Maybe even the same.

Obviously the Jews were, kicked, is perhaps the only way to describe it, all over the world to different places
over thousands of years .
By Assyrians and others and returned by Babylonians to their homeland , lived together in Jerusalem
with Arabs who could also be made up of Aegean peoples Greeks Turks (Sea Peoples????) ,
then were damned by the Romans, and attacked in earlier history by Philistines???

Who too could be made up of all sorts of earlier tribes and races. history is a little blind to the exact.

But we are talking about the hypocrisy of Jews claiming a homeland, aren't we.

You see for me they are in their home.

Now to describe Israel as the home or State of a religion, is not exact, Arabs live in Israel also , and the fact
that the religion this tribe stuck to, gave them some glue, of attachment to each other though thousands of
years being apart over centuries of separation

So in that time frame like all humans they developed racial traits through their generations
of people from where they had been able to livefor long periods, like German Jews or Russian Jews.
Heavens even Ethiopian Jews , if you get my meaning they would all be very culturally different
even racially different over generations?

Coming back home, started well before 1948. And staying home for some was occurring before the Romans.

So I don't think they are a Jewish Religious State, I think they area mix of mainly Jewish faith people
but others who have converted live there too, what I am saying is that I am positive they are
in their rightful and long term in human history, home!

Whether Philistines were named Palestinians or not is of no consequence the Jew, Iraelite, Canaanite Samaritan have evolved their biblical stories
to suit todays politics? I would not know.

I am not Jewish, and I believe the Palestine situation should be solved , and I do believe all those
different tribes what ever they called themselves that one did develop some ancient older faith than
Christianity and Islam and it started there, way before the Romans.

And that is where they came from!

Along with who ever other tribes were and their own cultures of religious ways , including Egyptians who
went into the area on occasions.

So I see the Israel Palestine conflict now so mashed in falsehoods, as mad and as foolish as Putin
and the Ukraine invasion.
There has to be a resolution that stops the killing in that region. Claims of arguing "this is mine" or "no this is mine",
are a waste.
They all are from there, so maybe politics and weaponry and money, make the anti Semitic flavour
float around the ideals of those observing. Israel is their home they belong and belonged there!

The question about the name is an interesting one. But basically it was because they wanted a name for the region, not just one of the many ethnic groups that came from that area.

The Kingdom of Judah had perished half a millenia before that, and the Kingdom of Israel before that.

To say that you can't distinguish between two people claiming something is just lazy. If you see someone snatch something out of someone elses bag, but when you approach them to stop them fighting they both claim it was theirs, what do you do? You use your brains and tell the snatcher to hand it back.

Ukraine and Palestine are both very simple.

Russia is illegally occupying parts of Ukraine and killing their citizens. Ukraine fighting back, which involves killing Russians, it is a good thing and we should support them.

Israel is illegally invading and occupying large parts of Palestine. Palestine fighting back is a good thing even if that means Israelis die. If Israel will not withdraw back to the UN boundaries of 1947 (less than a lifetime ago) then they are illegally annexing another nations land.



However, it is fast becoming the most popular position among Palestinians to just have one state, just removing the apartheid and returning stolen property.

It is very simple. Unfortunately, there is one beligerent group of settler colonials supported by the richest nation in history, who also built their wealth through settler colonial theft.

 

[JoondalupJ]

The question about the name is an interesting one. But basically it was because they wanted a name for the region, not just one of the many ethnic groups that came from that area.

The Kingdom of Judah had perished half a millenia before that, and the Kingdom of Israel before that.

To say that you can't distinguish between two people claiming something is just lazy. If you see someone snatch something out of someone elses bag, but when you approach them to stop them fighting they both claim it was theirs, what do you do? You use your brains and tell the snatcher to hand it back.

Ukraine and Palestine are both very simple.

Russia is illegally occupying parts of Ukraine and killing their citizens. Ukraine fighting back, which involves killing Russians, it is a good thing and we should support them.

Israel is illegally invading and occupying large parts of Palestine. Palestine fighting back is a good thing even if that means Israelis die. If Israel will not withdraw back to the UN boundaries of 1947 (less than a lifetime ago) then they are illegally annexing another nations land.

View attachment 1602863

However, it is fast becoming the most popular position among Palestinians to just have one state, just removing the apartheid and returning stolen property.

It is very simple. Unfortunately, there is one beligerent group of settler colonials supported by the richest nation in history, who also built their wealth through settler colonial theft.

Good points.
My argument would be that Russia never owned Ukraine, and the time frame for Russia/ Ukraine is not that old compared to the M/E.
But Israelis come from where have created a modern state.
At least 1000 BCE, and maybe before that.
And the first hunter gatherers that began to farm and stop still for periods, until they eventually stopped in places permanently,and began I guess our day of work obligations, when you think of it.

They got responsibilities they may not have wanted, having to look after animals and crops. So along develops modern man. and the bloody work day!

My point the area we are discussing now, where archaeologists believe modern human hunter gatherers who after coming out of Africa 1 million to 3 million years ago eventually settled as farmers in that Levant region first.
Maybe 200 to 300 thousand years ago, hunting gathering didn't just stop it emerged making a house or a village probably took thousands of years. for it to be nearly everyone farming, and still even today there are peoples who hunt and gather, but 100 200 300 years ago there were still many many hunter gatherers.
I think it is almost impossible to make an absolute, we only have about 10,000 years to look back for evidence .The M/Ewas the first placeof standing still human beings.

That's my opinion from what I 've read, and I read a lot, doesn't mean I am any kind of expert , I love this sort of speculation and history but I think personally in my self, that All people from that region should be allowed a homeland. Palestinian' s included.
Imagine Israel and Palestine stopping hating and being one.
Imagine HAMAS being disbanded. Imagine Hezbollah not being there, imagine Iran changed its hatred for modern Israel, because it is about humanity not about Jews Christians or Muslims, its about survival and getting on when in this day and age we could blow our little planet to smithereens.
Look at the abominable murderer Putin, and others throughout history!
We should be past it. Until people realise whats at stake, the world , the crap goes on?

But putting a little spanner (of a question) in the works, where from and who were, the Palestinians? From Greece?
Maybe they are all the same? Except for those who came back after generations and generations being thrown out of their homelands
But I see the quandary because then Palestine becomes as righteous as Israel, and that is where the problem can be solved.

 

[fishardansin]

Good points.
My argument would be that Russia never owned Ukraine, and the time frame for Russia/ Ukraine is not that old compared to the M/E.
But Israelis come from where have created a modern state.
At least 1000 BCE, and maybe before that.
And the first hunter gatherers that began to farm and stop still for periods, until they eventually stopped in places permanently,and began I guess our day of work obligations, when you think of it.

They got responsibilities they may not have wanted, having to look after animals and crops. So along develops modern man. and the bloody work day!

My point the area we are discussing now, where archaeologists believe modern human hunter gatherers who after coming out of Africa 1 million to 3 million years ago eventually settled as farmers in that Levant region first.
Maybe 200 to 300 thousand years ago, hunting gathering didn't just stop it emerged making a house or a village probably took thousands of years. for it to be nearly everyone farming, and still even today there are peoples who hunt and gather, but 100 200 300 years ago there were still many many hunter gatherers.
I think it is almost impossible to make an absolute, we only have about 10,000 years to look back for evidence .The M/Ewas the first placeof standing still human beings.

That's my opinion from what I 've read, and I read a lot, doesn't mean I am any kind of expert , I love this sort of speculation and history but I think personally in my self, that All people from that region should be allowed a homeland. Palestinian' s included.
Imagine Israel and Palestine stopping hating and being one.
Imagine HAMAS being disbanded. Imagine Hezbollah not being there, imagine Iran changed its hatred for modern Israel, because it is about humanity not about Jews Christians or Muslims, its about survival and getting on when in this day and age we could blow our little planet to smithereens.
Look at the abominable murderer Putin, and others throughout history!
We should be past it. Until people realise whats at stake, the world , the crap goes on?

But putting a little spanner (of a question) in the works, where from and who were, the Palestinians? From Greece?
Maybe they are all the same? Except for those who came back after generations and generations being thrown out of their homelands
But I see the quandary because then Palestine becomes as righteous as Israel, and that is where the problem can be solved.

Giving Anatolia (modern-day Turkey) to Greece because it was part of the Greek-speaking Roman empire up until 700 years ago makes more sense than giving a huge patch of the Levant to adherents of a religion that stems from one sect of a religion that was formed by people from that area while they were living in Babylon at the beginning of the iron age.

They never formed a state. It was Persia, then Greek, then Roman, then the early Caliphate and finally the Ottoman Empire (who saw themselves as a continuation of Rome - Sultanate of Rum). Throughout this time many people migrated out of the area for a myriad of reasons. Most common was moving towards larger centres of commerce.

While there were a lot of Jewish people moving out it was also created by a lot of outside influence. 2nd Temple Judaism was created with the influence of Persian Zoroastrianism, Judaism was not monotheist before that. The evolution of 2nd Temple Judaism to Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity and Islam is a result of Hellenisation.

Jews living in Northern Europe were subjected to unspeakable horrors for millennia. However, they were not culturally not connected to the Levant. That connection had been severed a long long time ago. Judaism was just one of many religions in the area and was always a highly splintered religion. It is incredibly stupid to create a state based on an ethnic identity that is tied to a religious culture, no matter how badly they were treated in their homelands of Europe. The area belonged to those who were living there.

I am nearly 50 years old and for a lot of my youth, I have argued and advocated for a return to the borders in a two-state solution. However, you can't unscramble an egg. Everyone is there, so, as is becoming the most popular opinion among Palestinians now, a one-state solution is the best outcome from here. Of course, provable dispossession from families that can prove their ownership of houses/property before the Nakba needs to be restored.

I'm willing to bet that if the current apartheid ceases and Palestinians are given equal access to opportunity throughout the borders of what is currently Israel/Palestine, you will see many Jews leave. Just like settler colonials in India, Kenya, Zimbabwe and South Africa.

Who are the Palestinians?:
Palestinians are genetically what you would expect Jews to be if they had remained in the Levant and converted to Islam. There is also a lot of evidence, but nowhere near certainty, that Islam is just a particular sect of Judaism that evolved in the rich trading centres of the Arabian peninsular. This area was pretty rich because trade between the eastern Roman empire, East Africa and India all went through there. I mean why form a new Abrahamic religion if you're not already practising an existing one? Like the Jews who created Christianity.

Jews and Palestinians both have very strong Semitic male lineages. Ashkenazi Jews have a very mixed female lineage (which makes Judaism passing through the mother weird). Palestinians have a lot of sub-Saharan in their female line. Both of these female lineage mixes are fairly recent. The Ashkenazi female line demonstrates that they migrated north from Roman territory to Holy Roman, not as part of that Khazaraian myth. The Palestinian female line demonstrates that there were a lot of hot black chicks coming up with the Arab slave trade. Prince Harry and Thomas Jefferson know what I mean.

All of this is just further proof that creating an ethnostate for a religion is just stupid. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran and India (BJP) are the most guilty of this. They all need to be opposed.