Josh Fraser & the great ruck debate

[HFF]

Some stupid remarks from Tony today.

How can you "pick one and stick with the one", half a season out from fina;s when neither are in terribly good form at the moment? There's no doubt, there is a second ruck spot up for grabs and IMO, the one who wants it most will get it in the end.

I disagree however, about giving the game time to Wood. He needs to earn it, just like every other player in our team currently trying to fight their way into the team.

Josh still has some credits for mine. He should play his 200th this weekend. Simply put, we cannot afford to go into the game with only 1 genuine ruck and a pinch hitter. If Jolly were to go down, we'd be screwed.

Also, Tony is right when he labelled Josh a "warrior". Seriously, this guy does not get the respect he deserves from the magpie faithful and it is a disgrace IMO. As a 17/18yr old kid he came to the club and single-handedly carried a ruck division by himself for the good part of 10yrs. He was thrown to the wolves from the beginning and did not receive the "development time" nor back-up required for a ruck because we were desperate and had nobody else. His best is still better than Wood's for mine and we should persist with him until Wood is knocking the door down. Jolly has started the season slowly too, so I'm sure the two can strike a chemistry and balance.

 

[Buena]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

What's tiring is having to explain to you a hundred times that rucks stocks take time, Wood is tracking fine, that rucking is not just about age, but body size and experience. What's most tiring, and seemingly pointless, is getting you to look realistically at our future ruck options.

Absolutely agree with you.
Unless you are a Natanui style freak of nature (which Wood isn't), then it will take a few years yet. Hopefully we persist with him, and he persists with us, for another 4 years. Look at Jolly and Jamar. 2 classic examples of ruckmen coming into their own in their mid/late 20's.

 

[Collingwould]

looks like Fraser is going to miss out this week according to the Herald Scum:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...for-sydney-clash/story-e6frf9jf-1225883692225

COLLINGWOOD ruckman Josh Fraser will be left behind when the Magpies fly to Sydney for their clash with the Swans on Saturday night.

It is believed Fraser will be dropped from the team that drew with Melbourne 10 days ago.

 

[Old Spice]

looks like Fraser is going to miss out this week according to the Herald Scum:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...for-sydney-clash/story-e6frf9jf-1225883692225

Jolly rucking solo. Interesting, but not surprising.

Like to see who comes in for Maxwell - goldballs?

 

[jonesy86]

Maybe Reid takes Maxwell's role and Brown plays 2nd tall/back up ruck?

 

[Old Spice]

Maybe Reid takes Maxwell's role and Brown plays 2nd tall/back up ruck?

Brown on White? Spooky.

 

[The Panther]

Josh was dropped for costing us the match against Melbourne. A great move.

 

[Quicky]

Like to see who comes in for Maxwell - goldballs?

He'd have to you think. If Brown was not injured him in and Reid to Maxwells floating role would be the go but failing that goldenballs has to be the inclusion.

 

[Collingwould]

He'd have to you think. If Brown was not injured him in and Reid to Maxwells floating role would be the go but failing that goldenballs has to be the inclusion.

from the VFL review against Sandy:
Tyson Goldsack (10k, 7h, 4m, 3t): Played all day down back and nullified his direct opponent. Kicked long penetrating deliveries inside our forward half.

give him a game I say

 

[rose jam]

Josh was dropped for costing us the match against Melbourne. A great move.

More likely due to the weather

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Josh used to be a really athletic, quick player. He can only be playing under duress at this stage of his career - how else do we explain the lumbered movement we see too often from him?

Collingwood's failure to recruit a big bodied ruckman is more to blame for his form than his disinterest in chasing etc. Josh hears the comments and criticisms of his play all the time, and according to Maxwell it really hurts him. Hence the hand cupped around his ear to the crowd when he kicked one of his goals in his best game this year.

I feel sorry for Josh. Better used on the field he could have remained fit to fulfil his potential. I would still be holding hope that rest and a modified program might get him up and running again in 6 - 8 weeks, nearing the finals.

But there again, if Josh is physically challenged, why select him and leave Wood in the VFL. Once a player takes the field, and he is not close to last man standing in his position, you tend to think they are open to criticism. However, The Pies owe Josh for the years taken off his career through early mismanagement. He went up as a spindly youth against powerful, solid ruckmen. He threw himself around to influence contests. I could never be as cruel on him as others here have been.

He is not gutless - he was our only good player against Brisbane in the 2003 GF and always played well in finals, and isn't that where our ultimate judgement of players is formed, in their performance in the fiery September cauldron?

Josh has suffered what had to be endured, a spell in th VFL. Leave him alone. If he is finished he's gone, if he can recapture some of his old form and physical abilty, he could be very useful.

Football is a very fickle game. He didn't select himself No1, and only Hasleby, Pavlich and ? have done anything out of Fraser's top10 rivals (L Brown pick 6!).

Danny Roach pick 8 to the Pies! Now that really was a bad pick!

 

[The Panther]

Collingwood's failure to recruit a big bodied ruckman is more to blame for his form than his disinterest in chasing etc.

If you take the field, you are 100% fit. Josh failed to chase Jamar, which ultimately cost us the match against Melbourne.

He's been sulking ever since Jolly came here & has had a terrible attitude onfield this year.

 

[PieBeast]

Pretty simple really- Josh's form will not get better, with Cam it's a real possibility. Play the youngster ffs.
Thanks for your services Josh but your days are numbered.

 

[Markfs]

Cameron Wood is playing in the VFL this week. Someone should whisper in his ear that he has the opportunity to play finals football in the seniors if he can manage to play some good footy....
i
I dont think Josh is doing himself any favours at the moment.. He needs to acknowledge that his form hasnt been good and that his role now is to provide support to jolly.

If he cant do that, then he will be placing himself in a corner with only a couple of ways out... none of which is playing long-term for the club. I find no joy in the current situation although some of it was expected. Josh hasn't been too flexible in recent years when the club played Guy Richards in the first ruck. I was hoping that having a better player like Jolly was going to force Josh into accepting a lesser role....but I'm not sure that he has done this. Until he accepts the new role, I dont think his form is going to improve...

It makes me sick in the stomach to think that Fraser feels that he has to stick it up the Collingwood "fans" who are giving him a hard time...but he has to understand that the club doesnt owe him a position in the first ruck.

btw. Its nice to see that the disgraceful name given to this topic originally, has been changed. There are some things that you can say to your mates, but some of the disrespectful crap that appears in this forum is totally inappropriate.

I would hope that all magpies fans would love to see a fit and in form Josh Fraser playing finals football this year. He deserves to hold the cup up on grand final day and I, for one, hope he's get there.

 

[rose jam]

I would hope that all magpies fans would love to see a fit and in form Josh Fraser playing finals football this year. He deserves to hold the cup up on grand final day and I, for one, hope he's get there.

"That's what I'm talking 'bout"...Rose Jam circa Round 13,2010

 

[TradeDraft]

If you take the field, you are 100% fit. Josh failed to chase Jamar, which ultimately cost us the match against Melbourne.

He's been sulking ever since Jolly came here & has had a terrible attitude onfield this year.

They why did Fraser OKAY the trade in the 1st place then?

Fraser did not even try to chase Jamar.

I know people like Fraser but I think we get rid of him and should of last trade week

 

[Markfs]

They why did Fraser OKAY the trade in the 1st place then?

Fraser did not even try to chase Jamar.

I know people like Fraser but I think we get rid of him and should of last trade week

Do you understand what you do to a team of people when you pick one and say that you're going to trade them? It doesn't help team morale. Have a look at Brisbane and the result of that arrogant prick's trading policy. There are number of Brisbane players now thinking that their arrogant prick of a coach is going to trade them....

We are dealing with people here. This aint a video game.

As for not chasing Jamar, I think a number of people made the point that a lot of collingwood players forgot to chase at the end.....but its harder to nail down responsibility to just one midfielder when players are being rotated so much. In other words, he made a mistake but he wasnt the only player..

 

[danielnajdek]

Good riddance. Don't come back you sook. Sick of soft players playing for Collingwood. It's about time to clean out all the guys who'd rather prance around the field then run their guts out and put their body on the line for the club. Have a nice day in the VFL on Sunday.

 

[The Panther]

Clearly Jolly's best game of the year. Coiendence? Sydney's stoppage style? or he is better without Josh in the team?

 

[danielnajdek]

I'll go with the third one Panther. Josh is clearly gonna struggle to get back in the team.

 

[smiddaz123]

There is absolutely no case for Fraser to be playing AFL anymore. Absolutely none.

 

[Thommo 42]

I don't really think the form of Jolly has anything to do with whether or not fraser plays.

The key is Leigh Brown and what we want from the 2nd ruck option.

At this stage, Leigh Brown can compete in the ruck adequately against the bigger bodied ruckmen, which is all we need as St Kilda and Geelong both have 2 x old school ruckmen.

Leigh can also go into defence and pick up a key post, can go forward and also offers some bullocking work on the wing. So he is really the ideal utility backup ruckman that can be used n a variety of other positions.

Josh on the other hand only offers rucking and forward-line, and with his body in its current state - not much good at either. Unless he gets back to 100%, I can't see how he fits in. He would need to be at 2006/07 form, or early 2009 form to get a look in.

I don't advocate him playing VFL for a while, just rest and get the body back to as close to 100% as possible. We still need Josh Fraser available, because if one of Jolly and Brown get injured - he needs to be able to come back.

 

[Zahki]

Yeah I'd say keep playing Jolly as the only ruck until he gives a reason not to. Neither Wood nor Fraser deserve a game at the moment and they shouldn't get one because of some notion that we must have 2 rucks.

 

[doppleganger]

Swan summed it up best.

A fit and in form Josh Fraser is in the pies best 22.

If he aint playing well he shouldn't get a game.

Pretty much the same story for the majority of players.

L.Brown is our best current option for the back up ruck.....give it a few weeks and a couple of L.Brown brain farts and people will change opinion again.

That is why Wood and Fraser need to dominated at VFL level. Both could still have massive roles to play in 2010.

 

[Daicos Mullets]

Josh was one of the best in the VFL today, took a few marks (some contested apparently) & kicked 3 goals. Maybe he needed the kick up the arse & the message is starting to get through to him.