Josh Fraser & the great ruck debate

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is on track at this stage of his career. Compare his averages with Frasers at the same age (these don't factor in tog or games played either)

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=5&pid1=1501&tid2=5&pid2=167&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=23&fid2=A&fopt2=23

In fact, on both the disposal and hit-out count, Wood has a nose in front and both are equal on goals.

 

[Rohan25]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is on track at this stage of his career. Compare his averages with Frasers at the same age (these don't factor in tog or games played either)
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=5&pid1=1501&tid2=5&pid2=167&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=23&fid2=A&fopt2=23

In fact, on both the disposal and hit-out count, Wood has a nose in front and both are equal on goals.

And a very good thing for Wood that they don't factor in TOG. Showing Wood's 2010 stats against Fraser's 2005 stats is very unfair. Josh had no pre-season at all that year, and spent the best part of all his 5 matches hobbling to and from the bench. From memory, there were at least two of those games where he spent the duration of the match off the ground injured. He shouldn't have played any matches at all that year, and when we conceded our season was over, we mercifully ended Josh's season as well.

I'm sorry, but those stats are entirely meaningless. If Wood's 2010 stats weren't "a nose in front" of Fraser's 2005 stats, it would be just plain embarrassing.

 

[Markfs]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

This must rate as one of the most offensive thread titles in this forum. I wouldnt blame the players if they said **** off, we're going to play for a bunch of supporters who have some class.

There's nothing wrong with being one-eyed but I cant see how someone can call themselves a supporter and write a heading like that..

Its not Fraser's fault that he is getting a game at the moment. It's the match committee that select the team. What do you expect Fraser to do. Tell the club that he wants to be excused from playing because the mob at bigfooty want to replace him with Sean Rusling....now there's a good idea. Fraser can stay permanently injured for the next two years and the bigfooty crew can write endless posts asking when he is going to be fit to play...

 

[MarkT2]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

This must rate as one of the most offensive thread titles in this forum.

Agree.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

And a very good thing for Wood that they don't factor in TOG. Showing Wood's 2010 stats against Fraser's 2005 stats is very unfair. Josh had no pre-season at all that year, and spent the best part of all his 5 matches hobbling to and from the bench. From memory, there were at least two of those games where he spent the duration of the match off the ground injured. He shouldn't have played any matches at all that year, and when we conceded our season was over, we mercifully ended Josh's season as well.

I'm sorry, but those stats are entirely meaningless. If Wood's 2010 stats weren't "a nose in front" of Fraser's 2005 stats, it would be just plain embarrassing.

Fair point, but the intention was not to pick one of Fraser's sh*t years but just to compare where Wood's at in his development.

If we do it for age 22, Wood is still comporable - 2.1 disposals less, and 2.6 more hit-outs. Fraser .9 goals, Wood .3.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=167&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

At age 21, Wood 5.4 less disposals, 2.1 less hit outs, .4 less goals.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=167&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=21&fid2=A&fopt2=21

At age 20, Wood 5 less disposals, 5.3 more hit outs, 1.5 less goals.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=167&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=20&fid2=A&fopt2=20

Wood in this time has not been the number one ruck, but always second, and in that light, his stats are good and his development pretty steady.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Fair point, but the intention was not to pick one of Fraser's sh*t years but just to compare where Wood's at in his development.

Why not compare there total averages??

At age 21, Wood 5.4 less disposals, 2.1 less hit outs, .4 less goals.

That is a massive difference.

At age 20, Wood 5 less disposals, 5.3 more hit outs, 1.5 less goals.

Fraser played up forward, he was not the number 1 ruck. In 2002, Fraser was 1 goal from winning our leading goal kicking award. Fraser's 2002 number's are comparable to Rocca.

Wood in this time has not been the number one ruck, but always second, and in that light, his stats are good and his development pretty steady.

Wood played 8 of 13 games as number 1 ruck in 2009, ie the majority of his games were as the number 1.

In 2008 for many games it was Wood and Bryan as our ruck combo, being second ruck to Bryan is not something to hang ur hat on.

Stop the Fraser bashing and excuse making for Wood.

Fraser was much further advanced than Wood, because he is a better player.

Fraser is struggling atm, but for fecks sake give the guy a break and stop trying to discredit him.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Why not compare there total averages??

Maybe because Fraser has been playing for 5 more years.

That is a massive difference.

Yeah, earth shattering, especially given tog.

Fraser played up forward, he was not the number 1 ruck. In 2002, Fraser was 1 goal from winning our leading goal kicking award. Fraser's 2002 number's are comparable to Rocca.

Unfortunately I can't do much about that, maybe hop in my tardis and see if Wood can be changed up so the comparisons are more suitable to you.

Wood played 8 of 13 games as number 1 ruck in 2009, ie the majority of his games were as the number 1.

In 2008 for many games it was Wood and Bryan as our ruck combo, being second ruck to Bryan is not something to hang ur hat on.

And yet they delisted the superior Bryan. Wow, you've wasted your life - should be our list manager.

Stop the Fraser bashing and excuse making for Wood.

Fraser was much further advanced than Wood, because he is a better player.

Fraser is struggling atm, but for fecks sake give the guy a break and stop trying to discredit him.

It's pretty clear to a sane person that my above post is aimed at tracking Wood's dvlpmt, but you keep on your messianic mission.

If anyone is bashing and raking up past glories to discredit someone, it's you on Wood. Where others have called for Fraser to be delisted, I haven't if you have a look, I just doubt that Fraser can turn it around.

If he can great, but just because you're all in love, no need to slag off a developing player.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Maybe because Fraser has been playing for 5 more years.

Compare there averages up to there 6th year of footy, ie where they are at now? How hard is that??

Josh developed into our number 1 ruck by his 4th year, ie 2003.

Wood in his 6th is still treading water.

Yeah, earth shattering, especially given tog.

Really dont understand why you keep trotting out TOG as if it is some big win for Wood?

Up until 2003, Fraser played more football up forward than in the ruck. When Wood plays he is only a ruck.

Unfortunately I can't do much about that, maybe hop in my tardis and see if Wood can be changed up so the comparisons are more suitable to you.

Wood aint as versatile.

If anyone is bashing and raking up past glories to discredit someone, it's you on Wood. Where others have called for Fraser to be delisted, I haven't if you have a look, I just doubt that Fraser can turn it around.

If he can great, but just because you're all in love, no need to slag off a developing player.

No slagging off....simply pointing out that the dribble about Wood being a young developing player is getting tired.

Wood has been groomed and given every opportunity to assume a place in the pies best 22. Yet he has failed to cement a spot.

Now people want to gift him games......

 

[Quicky]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

To me Wood has shown that he has all the attributes to be a top quality ruckman. He is an excellent tap ruckman, he is good around the ground, he can float back and plug space, float forward and kick goals, he has neat disposal skills and is a good overhead mark.

His issue has been pulling all these qualities together in the same game and consistently. When he has done this he has been dominant. To me it boils down to experience, commitment, work ethic and concentration.

The other massive consideration is the balance of our list in a time where we are having a serious crack at a premiership. Our ruck stocks are more precarious than I think people realise. It is becoming pretty clear that Frasers body is letting him down and who knows how much footy he has left. Outside of this we have Keeffe who is developing as a defender, McNamara who is a first year convert to the sport and Witts who hasn't even made the list yet.

Both in regards to our crack at a premiership and more long term Wood is incredibly important to our list. We likely don't have the time to develop another ruckman during our premiership window and in the longer term we could well be left in a similar scenario to when we recruited Fraser, rucking a raw ruck. We don't want to have to fork out again for another experienced ruckman.

Yes Wood has been disappointing at times. And yes you'd hope he'd have progressed faster. Should he be gifted games? No. And should he be persisted with? Absolutely.

Without him in the immediate term if we sufferred an injury to Jolly we'd be boned. If Fraser retires and we didn't have Wood our depth would be non-existent and we'd be boned. In the longer term if we didn't have him we'd be without an experienced ruck and quite realistically we'd be boned.

It's almost a universal truth that ruckman take time to develop and Wood is tracking close to how you would expect given his age and experience. He's shown all the attributes to be a quality ruckman. Considering what he has shown as a player, his age and experience and the fact ruckman take time to develop it's not time to panic about Wood just yet.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

To me Wood has shown that he has all the attributes to be a top quality ruckman. He is an excellent tap ruckman, he is good around the ground, he can float back and plug space, float forward and kick goals, he has neat disposal skills and is a good overhead mark.

His issue has been pulling all these qualities together in the same game and consistently. When he has done this he has been dominant. To me it boils down to experience, commitment, work ethic and concentration.

The other massive consideration is the balance of our list in a time where we are having a serious crack at a premiership. Our ruck stocks are more precarious than I think people realise. It is becoming pretty clear that Frasers body is letting him down and who knows how much footy he has left. Outside of this we have Keeffe who is developing as a defender, McNamara who is a first year convert to the sport and Witts who hasn't even made the list yet.

Both in regards to our crack at a premiership and more long term Wood is incredibly important to our list. We likely don't have the time to develop another ruckman during our premiership window and in the longer term we could well be left in a similar scenario to when we recruited Fraser, rucking a raw ruck. We don't want to have to fork out again for another experienced ruckman.

Yes Wood has been disappointing at times. And yes you'd hope he'd have progressed faster. Should he be gifted games? No. And should he be persisted with? Absolutely.

Without him in the immediate term if we sufferred an injury to Jolly we'd be boned. If Fraser retires and we didn't have Wood our depth would be non-existent and we'd be boned. In the longer term if we didn't have him we'd be without an experienced ruck and quite realistically we'd be boned.

It's almost a universal truth that ruckman take time to develop and Wood is tracking close to how you would expect given his age and experience. He's shown all the attributes to be a quality ruckman. Considering what he has shown as a player, his age and experience and the fact ruckman take time to develop it's not time to panic about Wood just yet.

Sanity, it has a nice ring to it.

 

[shawthing09]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I think one of the main problems with Wood atm is that he, like many others (and it maybe the same with Fraser) struggles with the second ruck role. Especially because he is exclusively a ruck as a player, playing with limited game time he (again like many others) just struggles to get into the game and with Wood more then most I feel a lot of that is mental. When he has played as the number one ruck he has more often then not looked the goods and crtainly better then when he has played the 2nd ruck role.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

No slagging off....simply pointing out that the dribble about Wood being a young developing player is getting tired.

Wood has been groomed and given every opportunity to assume a place in the pies best 22. Yet he has failed to cement a spot.

Now people want to gift him games......

What's tiring is having to explain to you a hundred times that rucks stocks take time, Wood is tracking fine, that rucking is not just about age, but body size and experience. What's most tiring, and seemingly pointless, is getting you to look realistically at our future ruck options.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

What's tiring is having to explain to you a hundred times that rucks stocks take time, Wood is tracking fine, that rucking is not just about age, but body size and experience. What's most tiring, and seemingly pointless, is getting you to look realistically at our future ruck options.

Wood is our future in the rucks......I get that. I question whether he will actually make it.

The masses seem to think the best/only option is to keep playing him, despite his form, in the hope he will come good.

If he is the future, he will work his way into the side based on good form at VFL level.

 

[mdc]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

If he is the future, he will work his way into the side based on good form at VFL level.

You're making the assumption here that it's possible for a ruck to develop properly in the VFL.

I'm personally unsure. It's certainly near impossible for a key defender to do so, and it's pretty hard for a key forward.

That's really the question at this point. It's not about gifting Wood games because he's young, it's about giving him games because it's a long-term developmental investment.

p.s. I too think an edit of the title is in order. It's one thing when it's a knee-jerk postgame reaction, but this thread's been up over a week now.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is our future in the rucks......I get that. I question whether he will actually make it.

The masses seem to think the best/only option is to keep playing him, despite his form, in the hope he will come good.

If he is the future, he will work his way into the side based on good form at VFL level.

Not many think that from what I've read, although I'm not opposed to it on the grounds that he needs experience, not just for himself personally but for the club's next few years.

It would be easier if we were rebuilding to give him games for develoment purposes. In general I am a full advocate of games based on form, as ST can testify, but in this case I feel we really need to get games into him.

Obviously we are in the premiership window so best options should prevail based on form. I'm pliable, more than would appear to be the case, on using Leroy (less so Dawes), but I just don't see that as a fix in the next few years and that we'll have to throw him in regardless, but perhaps without the right amount of preparation when we might be closer to a flag.

I think Wood is a confidence player and his feet are never far from the selection fire, hence I reckon he panics a bit in games thinking about holding his spot. Ideally, a player gobbles up the challenge, but I don't think that's Wood and Wood's what we've got.

If he feels secure in the side, rather than rest on his laurels, I reckon he will flourish, but that's all just speculation.

 

[Quicky]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is our future in the rucks......I get that. I question whether he will actually make it.

The masses seem to think the best/only option is to keep playing him, despite his form, in the hope he will come good.

If he is the future, he will work his way into the side based on good form at VFL level.

This is always very difficult to judge with ruckman. They take time. I'd argue that Wood has shown everything he needs to to make it as a quality ruckman. He needs time and experience.

I'd like to know what our alternatives are? Do we throw away more top picks for an established ruck? Lower picks for a ruck thats in the system but thats probably more speculative than Wood? Or go to the lottery that is the draft?

I think sticking with Wood and (decent form permitting) giving him games and experience (whether as a second ruck or not) is the best option we have.

 

[Bluey64]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

What's tiring is having to explain to you a hundred times that rucks stocks take time, Wood is tracking fine, that rucking is not just about age, but body size and experience. What's most tiring, and seemingly pointless, is getting you to look realistically at our future ruck options.

Old Spice I agree with your comments.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I'd like to know what our alternatives are? Do we throw away more top picks for an established ruck? Lower picks for a ruck thats in the system but thats probably more speculative than Wood? Or go to the lottery that is the draft?

I think sticking with Wood and (decent form permitting) giving him games and experience (whether as a second ruck or not) is the best option we have.

Wood is def our future.

It seems I have a different opinion, and seperate the future and the present.

Presently we are a top4 team, we are a big chance to win the flag in 2010, henceforth current form is most important....Wood's form was poor, aint followed VFL too closely, but I aint read that he has been dominating at VFL this year either. Yet people want to gift him games because we need him to be good in a few years, I dont agree with this.

Fraser has also been poor, and should be dropped.

Presently, L.Brown or Dawes pinch hitting in the ruck, with Jolly playing 80% of time is IMO our best option for the next few weeks.

If we are playing for the future, we may as well ease out L.Davis, B.Johnson, Medhurst and Presti in addition to Fraser.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is def our future.

It seems I have a different opinion, and seperate the future and the present.

Presently we are a top4 team, we are a big chance to win the flag in 2010, henceforth current form is most important....Wood's form was poor, aint followed VFL too closely, but I aint read that he has been dominating at VFL this year either. Yet people want to gift him games because we need him to be good in a few years, I dont agree with this.

Fraser has also been poor, and should be dropped.

Presently, L.Brown or Dawes pinch hitting in the ruck, with Jolly playing 80% of time is IMO our best option for the next few weeks.

If we are playing for the future, we may as well ease out L.Davis, B.Johnson, Medhurst and Presti in addition to Fraser.

We'll have to disagree on Wood's 2010 form as I think two games were poor, two okay and Josh only really one good game, the others poor.

I think we are a chance in 2010, but I reckon we might be closer next year and hope we have got games into Wood by then as Fraser's body wont be any better.

Happy to trial Leroy, and if it works, good, but just don't see that as a long term solution in the window.

If Fraser or Leroy's form's good as 2nd ruck in the back half of 2010, of course they can't be denied, I just suspect it wont happen at a consistent level. Always happy to be wrong though about players form coming good.

On the phase out of older players, I guess the same law applies. If Dick is doing well and Medders / Leon keep struggling, it's inevitable that they should get less game time. Not because it's a design to stitch them up and punish them, but because you want the best 22 for the side.

 

[Quicky]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood is def our future.

It seems I have a different opinion, and seperate the future and the present.

Presently we are a top4 team, we are a big chance to win the flag in 2010, henceforth current form is most important....Wood's form was poor, aint followed VFL too closely, but I aint read that he has been dominating at VFL this year either. Yet people want to gift him games because we need him to be good in a few years, I dont agree with this.

Fraser has also been poor, and should be dropped.

Presently, L.Brown or Dawes pinch hitting in the ruck, with Jolly playing 80% of time is IMO our best option for the next few weeks.

If we are playing for the future, we may as well ease out L.Davis, B.Johnson, Medhurst and Presti in addition to Fraser.

I think this arguments gone full circle now.

I agree that we shouldn't gift games to Wood. His last performance in the seniors was poor and he deserved to be dropped.

Now that we have Jolly he needs to adapt to being able to play as a second ruckman and have an impact on games.

As soon as his form warrants it it's really important that he gets given the experience. Given he'll be playing as a second ruck I think that this needs to be taken into account as he can't be expected to have as big an impact. But his performances definitely need to be better than his poor games this year.

 

[Old Spice]

Article on this issue in the Hun today

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...fraser-tony-shaw/story-e6frf9jf-1225882951632

 

[BEEG]

Am i the only one who thinks Wood has been better at AFL level then Fraser

If you watch Wood play he gets tap outs can make a contest in the forward line is a much better contested mark and THIS IS THE BIG ONE doesnt fall to ground every time theres a contest

His younger i believe is a better ruckman just play the kid and make the tough decision on Fraser that he is now 3rd in line

 

[Quicky]

Article on this issue in the Hun today

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...fraser-tony-shaw/story-e6frf9jf-1225882951632

It's a good point that Shaw makes. We are getting into the pointy end of the season and we need to get that second ruck position settled one way or another. It's difficult because no-one has grabbed their opportunity. I think Josh's body is shot and Wood is just in poor form so i'd be going with Wood as I think he can reach better form.

 

[TradeDraft]

It's a good point that Shaw makes. We are getting into the pointy end of the season and we need to get that second ruck position settled one way or another. It's difficult because no-one has grabbed their opportunity. I think Josh's body is shot and Wood is just in poor form so i'd be going with Wood as I think he can reach better form.

Agree we need to choose our 2nd Ruck for the rest of the Season and I still think we need to give it to Wood as he still has a Future and I doubting Fraser has one

 

[doppleganger]

Agree we need to choose our 2nd Ruck for the rest of the Season and I still think we need to give it to Wood as he still has a Future and I doubting Fraser has one

Choosing our best team for the 2010 finals should not take into account any future performance.

If Fraser, Lockyer, Presti, B.Johnson or even O'Bree are in good form they need to play. We all know the kids are the future, but finals are about performing in the moment.