Josh Fraser & the great ruck debate

[MarkT2]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Fraser has played a decade of AFL footy. Believing he will be a highly effective player after a decade of mediocrity is insane. wood may nit be the answer but at lest the question has not yet been definitively resolved. Wood over Fraser if only because he may make it. He has to be under pressure though. The balance of of 2010 and 2011 and then decision time. Rucks take a while but a decade is well and truely beyond that.

 

[Paddywhackers]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Fraser has played a decade of AFL footy. Believing he will be a highly effective player after a decade of mediocrity is insane. wood may nit be the answer but at lest the question has not yet been definitively resolved. Wood over Fraser if only because he may make it. He has to be under pressure though. The balance of of 2010 and 2011 and then decision time. Rucks take a while but a decade is well and truely beyond that.

Firstly,

Doppleganger again seems to make so much sense.

MatkT, Fraser hasn't been mediocre, he hasn't been great, he has been good for us. He never had the body to become a monster ruck, and he was very skinny as an 18yo, so maybe he has been a victim of Collingwood's lack of ruck stocks, his inability to put on decent muscle mass and his immediate postive impact to our side from an early age and a stick figure means that now his body is older than his age as he ahs been thrown around in the ruck all this time and that father time maybe approaching earlier than anticipated.

Doppleganger again is spot on about Wood. I too hope he can come good. Jolly didn't come good until his mid twenties, than there is this seasons stories of Mumford and Jamar.

One would like to think Wood could be another one of those stories, however his weaknesses that have been highlighted in this thread means that he really needs to play a few weeks in the reserves, addressing these issues, to demand a game, and a quality AFL career.

I see merit in giving him a few weeks in the seniors though. This thread is making me angrier and more impatient with Wood the more I think about it. And cheated with the reality we parted with pick 14. He needs to pull the finger put of his arse. And FFS can Jolly live up to some of the expectations and play like he did when he was at Sydeny, granted he has been improving in recent weeks.

Fraser might be finished. If we bring in Wood, it is highly likely after another bad performance, people will again have nostaglia of when Fraser offered us something and want him back in the side again.

 

[Axl the great]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Doppleganger makes some very valid points that neither deserve a game on current form, and Fraser seems to get the rough end of the stick and Woody due to his youth seems to escape critique a little more.

But the one point i dont agree with is this gifting of games point of view.
Fraser has been gifted games all year and most of last year and at his age its clear he aint going to come good full stop.

Wood may be 23 but he lacks experience and has room for improvement that is the massive difference, it is not a gift to constantly pick a younger inexperienced player to develop them into a quality player.

Anyone who has played the game knows you only improve in a harder more competitive environment if you have that potential to improve, it takes time and sometimes a few years of experience in this environment to really take the next step and producing what the team needs becomes second nature.

Fraser aint going to get any better phsically or mentally, he is past his best so any game he plays is gifted im sorryt to say.
Wood has to be given a continued run to find out if and when the penny drops or if indeed he is any good at all.
That is where Woody has and deserves an advantage over Josh, he has that potential ability to come good with a sustained run of games, he will never ever improve playing in the twos every second week, he will come good by playing against the best and learning what it takes and working on areas of his game letting him down.

Fraser cannot learn anything new, his body is shot and room for improvement is virtually non exsistent so that is why Wood deserves the call over Josh and why the fans and us posters have a bit more of a lenient attitude towards him compared to Josh.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Fraser has played a decade of AFL footy.

Mediocre players dont play 200 games of AFL football.

Believing he will be a highly effective player after a decade of mediocrity is insane.

Whoops, there you go again.....a decade of mediocre football.

Why the feck was Josh picked to represent Victoria?

Josh Fraser was a good ruck and a great follower for Collingwood.

wood may nit be the answer but at lest the question has not yet been definitively resolved.

It is up to Wood to answer the question.

Wood has been given plenty of chances to make a spot in the 22 his own.

In 2008 he started the season as number 2 ruck, was eventually dropped for Bryan. Then Josh went down and Wood and Bryan were our two rucks in the middle of the season.......Bryan played the better football. When Josh came back it was Wood that made way and Bryan kept playing.

2009, L.Brown was preferred at the start of the season. Wood got a chance when Fraser went down mid season, and he could only av 1 more HO per game than Josh (so much for being a dominant tap-ruck). Wood was given another chance in the finals, in which he was smashed by Maric, Sellar and Blake and Ottens. Only Ottens would be considered a good ruck.

2010, he again took over from Fraser as back-up.......offered nothing and was dropped.

Where is the improvement from when he arrived? How many chances do you give a bloke?

Wood over Fraser if only because he may make it. He has to be under pressure though.

That sums up most people's thinking....

I reckon you play the bloke in the best form.

The balance of of 2010 and 2011 and then decision time. Rucks take a while but a decade is well and truely beyond that.

Presume the decade comment was in relation to Fraser.....

If Wood can produce a season as good as Fraser had in 2003 id be surprised and happy. At this stage it is wishful thinking that Wood will ever have a season as good as Fraser was in 2006.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Why do you use McKee's av HO as any indicator of anything??

In 99 he was at Richmond who had B.Gale and B.Ottens as their rucks.

In 99 Collingwood had Monkhorst as our ruck.


Monkhorst was our ruck in 99.

Fraser came in and was good enough to assume a rucking role in 2000 as an 18 yr old.

My mistake, push that back a year. But that doesn't change the fact that Monkhorst was at the end of his career, going to Sydney in 2000, and that McKee who came in provided little by way of ruck depth. It was a no-brainer that Fraser would be given plenty of game time in his 1st year.

But, by all means, continue to miss the point.

Fraser was used as a forward ruck when he was introduced.

He kicked 3 goals in the 02 PF and another 3 the next week in the 02 GF.

With McKee's exit from any form of influence, Josh turned into our number 1 ruck pretty much on his own from 2003. His form in the second half of 2003 was a massive reason behind the clubs turn around and charge into the GF.

Started as a forward, where he kicked 0.2g average for 2000?

Pick the eyes of his career and maybe put together a video highlights package, but don't pretend his good games are typical.

The entire point being that by the time Josh was 23, ie Wood's current age, he was already a quality AFL footballer. Be it as a number 1 ruck, or as a ruck/forward.

Actually when Josh was 18 he was already a good AFL footballer.

The point is Wood isn't young. Brisbane realised he wasn't that good, so they off-loaded him. Since coming to us he has shown little improvement, and he has not even been able to push aside Fraser (a bloke who was washed up in the ruck in 2006 according to most on this board), C.Bryan, L.Brown or even Dawes in the ruck.

The Wood is young and needs to be given a chance line is way too old now...

No he's not young, but certainly hasn't been given a Joshesque pump-priming.

So how many games has Leroy played in the ruck, or Dawes? Bryan you might have noticed was delisted, but Wood remains, so what's your point?

Fraser played 100 games by the time he was 23 because he WAS a quality talent.

Wood simply aint a quality AFL talent yet.....people hope he can become one. People like you think he should be gifted every chance as we need him to come good.

ahh nostalgia, comforting in your dotage.

Ha, even tho Fraser is widely acknowledged as a pathetic tap ruck, Wood is only 1 per game better......and you have to classify that by raising some unmeasurable point that you believe Wood to be better at.....may want to check the figures on Wood HO to advantage before talking him up.


Fraser was a better player than Wood in 2009, even tho he struggled with his bung knee in the second half.

Wood was a massive flop in the finals.

Fraser widely acknowledged as a tap-out flop, I wonder why? I'd suggest eyeballs have a bit to do with it.

Struggled with injury, but just at the end of 09 right, outside of that he's been a rock. Mr September.

Fraser has been poor in 2010, no question and he does not deserve a game.

Neither does Wood.

Difference being that posters are happy to call for Fraser's head, start threads saying they never want to see him pull on the jumper again.

If Fraser comes back from here it will outdo Lazarus.

You're so enraged about Fraser's demise that you want to drag Wood down with him. You're not willing to engage or acknowledge any of the good signs or aspects of his game, but to selectively rake through the muck for any dirt.

Conversely, you present Fraser's best games as typical, keep talking about Fraser's past which you consistently sex-up without a mind to the future and fail to acknowledge his situation and development path was different to Woods.

I've stated I don't mind trying Leroy and if it works, that's all to the good, but I doubt it will and we need to address the ruck situation soberly, not through misty eyes punctuated by sulky fits.

Fraser is not going to turn things around very dramatically from this point on a consistent level, and outside of Jolly, the only other ruck prospect is Wood.

You either ignore that central fact, delude yourself that we can run through the next 3-4 years with Leroy or Dawes, or you use another 1st round pick for a ruckman. I don't think that's necessary and would rather be looking at the ruck dept and why it seems to so consistently fail.

 

[MarkT2]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Mediocre players dont play 200 games of AFL football.

Firstly there is a difference between a medicore player and mediocre performances over a period. Fraser's injuries haven't helped but I'd still maintain he is a medicore ruckman. Whether Fraser is a mediocre players is debable but IMO he has performed with medicority through the majority of his career from an AFL level measure. Not terrible but mediocre.

As for playing 200 games - well that is entirely the issue. He hasn't performed well enough IMO. When the president backs him for the Brownlow, the coach keeps supporting him and a you don't recruit adequate replacements because you have faith which proves unfounded you can play more games than your output and impact warrant. That's why teams don't achieve.

I'll ask the same question I've asked before. In a decade of AFL football how many games of real impact has Josh Fraser played? I'll bet it is less than 1 season's worth of games and I'll bet even that's stretching the definition of impact.

 

[MagpieJoel]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Last week was the first time I have admitted that Fraser is a liability to the team. I've always like him, but he is on the nose atm.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I'll ask the same question I've asked before. In a decade of AFL football how many games of real impact has Josh Fraser played? I'll bet it is less than 1 season's worth of games and I'll bet even that's stretching the definition of impact.

You have a very poor memory, unrealistic expectations or simply have a grudge against Josh.

Even in 2009 he started the season well, would have been in our best in 3 of the first 4 games.

You reckon Josh has played less than 20 games of quality football....laughable.

No point discussing further if that is your view.

 

[leons magic]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

This topic is over. Majority of the points you have made are not valid because you fail to understand what myself and other posters are trying to say to you. All we are saying is that Josh Frasers time in the team is over, he no longer deserves a game. Wood also on form does not deserve a game on form. However as Wood is currently offering the same output as Fraser as back up ruck i see no reason why Wood should not be given until the end of atleast the home and away season to see if he has what it takes to make it. If by round 22 he has shown nothing, which is cleary something that might happen, then im happy to look at other options like Brown and Dawes to pinch hit as backup. Im not expecting him to pull out Dean Cox like performances but if he can show enough to suggest that he is more than a handy back up he may flourish in the mid to latter stages of his career and eventually take over the mantle from Jolley as he ages.

By all means if he shows nothing over an extended run of games in the ones, then maybe we have to think about drafting a young ruckman in the next draft or something along those lines. You are saying not to play Fraser or Wood based on form but to rely on Leigh Brown and Dawes as second option without giving Wood an extended go is laughable considering he was a first round pick himself, we then traded a first round pick for him. This obviously doesnt guarentee that he will be a good player, but suggests that both the Lions and ourselves saw some talent in him and due to ruckman generally not dominating from the get go, and flourinshing when they are fully developed and matured suggest that he should be given the opportunity to make it, as niether Fraser or the pinch hitting options provide a better option for now and for the future regardless of how Wood plays so why not give him the chance?

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

This topic is over. Majority of the points you have made are not valid because you fail to understand what myself and other posters are trying to say to you. All we are saying is that Josh Frasers time in the team is over, he no longer deserves a game.

My points are not valid because you dont like them.

No player's time in the team is over.....Jolly could do his knee, Wood can continue to offer little....Josh could go back to VFL and dominate.

But Josh' CURRENT form doesn't warrant a game.

Wood also on form does not deserve a game on form.

My point, glad you agree.

However as Wood is currently offering the same output as Fraser as back up ruck i see no reason why Wood should not be given until the end of atleast the home and away season to see if he has what it takes to make it.

You reward mediocrity...how about the fact you just said his form doesn't warrant selection.

You are saying not to play Fraser or Wood based on form but to rely on Leigh Brown and Dawes as second option without giving Wood an extended go is laughable considering he was a first round pick himself, we then traded a first round pick for him.

Wood has had enough chances, and has failed everytime.

Bryan outperformed him in 08
Wood failed in the finals in 09.
Wood was poor in his run in 10.

It is time for Wood to earn a game on merit.

This obviously doesnt guarentee that he will be a good player, but suggests that both the Lions and ourselves saw some talent in him and due to ruckman generally not dominating from the get go, and flourinshing when they are fully developed and matured suggest that he should be given the opportunity to make it, as niether Fraser or the pinch hitting options provide a better option for now and for the future regardless of how Wood plays so why not give him the chance?

Recruiters get it wrong sometimes.

Wood doesn't offer a better option than L.Brown or Dawes atm, if he did I would want him playing.

 

[MarkT2]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

You have a very poor memory, unrealistic expectations or simply have a grudge against Josh.

I have a long memory and if you checked my posting history from 2001 or thereabouts onwards you'd find I was a supporter of Josh for a long time - ditto the coach and president. The reality is none of that group have been good enough for us to win premierships so they lost my support. Not that they care about my support but I mention that in the context of your post. I have nothing against any Collingwood player and they are all 1m times better than I could ever be but as a long term supporter I am frustrated we don't deal adequately with not winning premierships.

Even in 2009 he started the season well, would have been in our best in 3 of the first 4 games.

I have never said he was a dud but that's not a great return for a season and a half. I'd call it mediocre.

You reckon Josh has played less than 20 games of quality football....laughable.

No point discussing further if that is your view.

Give or take - yes. Just tell me how many you think it would be. It's one acceptable good game this year IMO - v Essendon. How many last year? You say 3 from the first 4. I reacall the return match v Essendon being good for him. Not sure but I'll give you 6 from the last season and a half. How many in 2008? 2007? How far back do you want to go? 2003 he was good but when it counted he was smashed. I thought he battled well in the GF but his oppoenent set up the game so you could hardly say he had an impact. In 2002 he played some good footy up forward. I thought he had a couple of good finals. A quick look reveals 21 goals for the year. Hardly world beating.

He has 31 career Brownlow votes. His best Copeland is 2006 - equal 4th. He polled 2 Brownlow votes that year. 2004 looks to have been his best Brownlow year with 9 votes with 3 BOGs. His second best was 2001 when he polled 7 in 3 games. Brownlow votes are far from definitive but he can't have polled in much more than 15 games if that.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Wood has had enough chances, and has failed everytime.

Bryan outperformed him in 08
Wood failed in the finals in 09.
Wood was poor in his run in 10.

It is time for Wood to earn a game on merit.

Recruiters get it wrong sometimes.

Must have got it badly wrong, dropping the superior Bryan instead of Wood. Hasn't shaken it up in finals recently like [strike]Mr September[/strike] Fraser.

Maybe narrow your sample size of Wood's games, it's too big and the detail too dense.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

I have a long memory and if you checked my posting history from 2001 or thereabouts onwards you'd find I was a supporter of Josh for a long time - ditto the coach and president. The reality is none of that group have been good enough for us to win premierships so they lost my support. Not that they care about my support but I mention that in the context of your post. I have nothing against any Collingwood player and they are all 1m times better than I could ever be but as a long term supporter I am frustrated we don't deal adequately with not winning premierships.

I know where your coming from.

I have never said he was a dud but that's not a great return for a season and a half. I'd call it mediocre.

His last two years, 09 & 10, have been mediocre.

Give or take - yes. Just tell me how many you think it would be. It's one acceptable good game this year IMO - v Essendon. How many last year? You say 3 from the first 4. I reacall the return match v Essendon being good for him. Not sure but I'll give you 6 from the last season and a half. How many in 2008? 2007? How far back do you want to go? 2003 he was good but when it counted he was smashed. I thought he battled well in the GF but his oppoenent set up the game so you could hardly say he had an impact. In 2002 he played some good footy up forward. I thought he had a couple of good finals. A quick look reveals 21 goals for the year. Hardly world beating.

You have picked out 6 from 2009, in a year he was supposedly ordinary.

Yet you think he has played less than a season, ie 22 games, of good football.

Do the Math, much more than 20 games of good football for the pies.

He has 31 career Brownlow votes. His best Copeland is 2006 - equal 4th.

His best is much better than mediocre.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Must have got it badly wrong, dropping the superior Bryan instead of Wood. Hasn't shaken it up in finals recently like [strike]Mr September[/strike] Fraser.

Fraser being injured come finals time has hurt us massively in recent years, because his replacements...Bryan, L.Brown and Wood aint been good enough.

Wood is young and the future, so he cops no criticism though.

Cloke and JA massively criticised for poor performances in last years finals, yet both are younger than Wood.

 

[buzzbuzz]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

You'd have to have been blind and deaf to miss the criticism Wood has suffered (usually justifiably). And yes, being a young ruckman does mean you get cut a bit of slack. It's a fact of the game.

 

[Old Spice]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Fraser being injured come finals time has hurt us massively in recent years, because his replacements...Bryan, L.Brown and Wood aint been good enough.

Wood is young and the future, so he cops no criticism though.

Cloke and JA massively criticised for poor performances in last years finals, yet both are younger than Wood.

Look, I've not said Wood has mowed down everything in sight. I said for 2010 he had two ordinary games and two I thought were pretty good. He's been patchy, but not many rucks dominate from the beginning.

It takes loger than key forwards to develop because they are long streaks of pelican sh*t that only fill out in their mid 20s.

Partly it's games, partly it's age, partly it's build. Mummie looks the goods but he is a big framed lad. Fraser has never been a tap but a mobile ruck, hence that has evened the ledger for him. Without that mobility, he is in all sorts.

The mobile ruck archetype that is Fraser is to be compared with your Goodes, Cox, Hille, Jeff White type players.

Compare Wood at age 22 with other rucks of that age and you'll find he is tracking alright.

Maric http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...2=1522&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

Leuenberger http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...2=1722&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

Jacobs http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...2=1798&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

Goldstein http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...2=1755&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

Brogan at 23 http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=118&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=23&fid2=A&fopt2=23

Cox http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=100&type=A&fid1=A&fopt1=22&fid2=A&fopt2=22

 

[Optimax]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

You'd have to have been blind and deaf to miss the criticism Wood has suffered (usually justifiably). And yes, being a young ruckman does mean you get cut a bit of slack. It's a fact of the game.

In his 6th year, the whole he is young thing gets a bit long in the tooth.

I am not expecting dominating games, but i do want to see him have an actual effect on the game

 

[Pie eyed]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Re: Wood.
I'd be happy to see him just knock someone over a few times.

 

[mdc]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

In his 6th year, the whole he is young thing gets a bit long in the tooth.

I am not expecting dominating games, but i do want to see him have an actual effect on the game

That's not how development works though, and you know it. With big guys especially, it tends to be an overnight switch rather than a gradual improvement. Obviously they need to be putting in consistent work in training and the off-season, but in terms of on-field output, the change is usually pretty sudden.

I'm not saying Wood should be exempt from criticism or that he should be gifted games, but there's plenty of precedent of very good ruckmen who were worse than Wood in their 6th year.

 

[Optimax]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

That's not how development works though, and you know it. With big guys especially, it tends to be an overnight switch rather than a gradual improvement. Obviously they need to be putting in consistent work in training and the off-season, but in terms of on-field output, the change is usually pretty sudden.

I'm not saying Wood should be exempt from criticism or that he should be gifted games, but there's plenty of precedent of very good ruckmen who were worse than Wood in their 6th year.

Most of them had insane work ethic though, and their commitment not generally questioned

 

[mdc]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Most of them had insane work ethic though, and their commitment not generally questioned

...or maybe they develop that work ethic as they mature? Each individual is different.

Right now, he doesn't have the necessary concentration week-to-week to be a no.1 ruckman, nor has he applied himself enough in the gym in the off-season. Then again, the same goes for Fraser, and he's been around for 10+ years.

Wood's not as talented as Fraser was, but he's still a much better ruck talent than anything we could realistically pick up in the draft, and as such it's worth persevering with him. This isn't a Guy Richards scenario where at best we would have had a handy tap ruck who's shit around the ground.

 

[MarkT2]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

You have picked out 6 from 2009, in a year he was supposedly ordinary.

Not really, I was allowing you the early games you said were good. Assuming 6 is accurate though, then yes it probably is more than 22. Say it's 40. That's still not nearly good enough IMO. That's still 2 full seasons from 10. That;s stil a mediocre return IMO.

His best is much better than mediocre.

So was McGough's.

Statistically Fraser's best:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-collingwood-magpies--josh-fraser
Never had 30 disposals. Once or twice kicked 5 goals. 14 marks once, maybe twice.
Is that a medicore best for a 10 year player?

 

[Lockyer24]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Has he ever finished top 5 in the Copeland? For a guy who was in the leadership group it's a very poor return.

Lost the faith a long time ago with Josh.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Has he ever finished top 5 in the Copeland? For a guy who was in the leadership group it's a very poor return.

Lost the faith a long time ago with Josh.

He was 4th in 2006.

Not disimilar to other veterans, Rocca and Presti who never really featured strongly in Copeland voting. Blokes missing games doesn't give you much of a chance to poll under the Copeland system.

 

[doppleganger]

Re: Josh Fraser - **** Off and Don't Come Back

Not really, I was allowing you the early games you said were good. Assuming 6 is accurate though, then yes it probably is more than 22. Say it's 40. That's still not nearly good enough IMO. That's still 2 full seasons from 10. That;s stil a mediocre return IMO.So was McGough's.

Statistically Fraser's best:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-collingwood-magpies--josh-fraser
Never had 30 disposals. Once or twice kicked 5 goals. 14 marks once, maybe twice.
Is that a medicore best for a 10 year player?

McGough didn't put together quality seasons of AFL football.

How many ruckman have topped 30 disposals in a game?

Really there is not much to gain from this debate anymore....the majority of pies supporters think Josh is a washed up bloke who was only ever mediocre.

From the pies website player profiles.

'2009 season
The co-vice captain had a superb start to the season averaging 22 hitouts, 21 disposals and seven marks from his first six matches.

He sustained an injury to his knee in the win over North Melbourne in round seven but managed to return the following week to play in the next seven rounds.

A highlight for Fraser was posting a career-high total in hitouts with 35 against Essendon in what was a redeeming win for his club in round 14.

The 202-centimetre ruckman pulled up sore after the qualifying loss to St Kilda and was forced to undergo a knee operation which kept him to the sidelines for the rest of the season.

It will be an interesting year for Fraser, who will be competing against Darren Jolly and Cameron Wood for a spot in the ruck.'

22 touches, 21 HOs and 7 marks per game.....feck that is better than Jolly! But hey Wood's game against Adelaide is the best performance from a pies ruck since Monkhorst or P.Moore according to most scribes on ere.

Fraser has been a quality servant for the pies, he is struggling atm.....if Wood has a career as good as Fraser we will have done well.